The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread | Page 284 | FerrariChat

The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

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  1. johngtc

    johngtc Formula Junior
    Owner

    Mar 4, 2005
    817
    Yorkshire, UK
    Full Name:
    John Gould
    +100

    This thread is not improved by sarcasm, vindictive personal attacks and circular arguments put forward by those seeking to support one position or another.

    Mr Glickenhause has made his case. Mr Piper has not found the need to contribute and that is his perogative.

    Whatever, as others have said, let's be thankful that this lovely car exists and is frequently available for real enthusiasts to enjoy.
     
  2. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
    Full Name:
    george burgess
    It's nice we can finally agree on something.It's pretty clear that David Piper probably didn't know the differences in the two types of P chassis and didn't care at the time he built 0003. He just went ahead an built 0003 with what he had gotten from Mr Ferrari. In those days sns were of little importance to anyone.Even Ferrari ,from what we can surmise, was so POed at the FIA's new regulations that he just gave away all the latest P series cars and spares and dropped out of that racing class. You can't really blame him when Ford was going to be able to continue competing with their over sized engines. Enzo was very famillar with Piper, apparently liked him, and so just said take the lot and build what you want and here are some sns you can use.Piper did just that, sold you the car you really wanted and the rest is history.Still for better or worse Piper was then the prominent restorer, recreater, what ever he is called of these cars.I will say this that if David Piper had known or cared about the differences in the two chassy types I believe he would still have sold 0003 to you. But, we don't know this do we. And until David Piper is brought more into the discussion we may never know. Open the door. tongascrew
     
  3. showme1946

    showme1946 Karting

    Oct 9, 2011
    78
    Columbia, Missouri
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    George Rickerson
    No. This thread was over a long time ago, I support the suggestion that it be retired. It should be reopened only in the event that Mr. Piper contacts Rob Lay to say he wishes to contribute.
     
  4. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    Tom
    I don't think it should be closed at all. But stepping off for a while might do everybody some good.
     
  5. Drive550PFB

    Drive550PFB Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    I come back to this . . .

    Were this in a court of law, Napolis has provided a mountain of evidence for his proposition. In addition he has several experts, including one of the most respected Ferrari experts, Marcel, to testify about his car. He has statements (albeit it in a tangential way) from Ferrari, as well as a respected magazine.

    On cross examination, the few witnesses against him, such as Piper, are easily cross examined on this subject and their testimony is of no use.

    If this were a fight, it would have been stopped long ago. If this were in court, the jury would be out for about 10 minutes, and only that long so some of them could have a smoke. The vote would take about a minute.

    You are entitled to your own opinion that the car is not genuine.

    But you are not entitled to your own facts. And the facts support Napolis.
     
  6. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

    Apr 5, 2010
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    That is one of the best summaries of the current situation I have read for ages. Crack up. Cheers for the laugh although I am afraid certain posters will re-litigate and appeal, probably all of the way to the supreme court lol.
     
  7. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    503
    This is a boilerplate in any cheap law case. However, no boilerplate is Mauro Forghieri’s crystal clear statement, what ended this case. And I really feel, an excuse is owed to Miura SV as well. The ban was a coup like in an banana republic.
     
  8. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    503
    #7083 lgs, Dec 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2015
    I do not agree at all. There were substantial inputs like Mauro Forghieri’s fundamental statement and exactly in this very moment he got banned. But I appreciate your reply and that you have made your position clear. Andrew, thank you.
     
  9. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

    Oct 6, 2007
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    #7084 Vincent Vangool, Dec 20, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2014
    You may want to read again before you assume these things, as banned users "crystal clear statement" wasn't so crystal clear. You may want to read up on Mauro's statement to Napolis.

    What is crystal clear is the evidence that exists, that being the chassis originated from P3 construction.

    It also seems to be crystal clear that Piper has no idea of how it was constructed.

    Can't construct what you don't know how to.

    You can detract all you want but... it is pretty crystal clear to the majority of the people here that the chassis original construction was by Ferrari.
     
  10. Tenney

    Tenney F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Feb 21, 2001
    4,085
    Good of Jim to research and share. Gracious of him to extend a pant leg to chew on. Figure he wins in more ways than having the car parked in his garage (though that does serve as a reasonable exclamation point).

    Must have one savage thesaurus to dole out a fresh response to the same questions over and over!
     
  11. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    tewksbury
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    george burgess
    Very well put.What I might add here is that it is unfortunate that David Piper "has not found the need to contribute" in a meaningful way. Why we may never know which is unfortunate and in my opinion does not reflect well on his reputation.I know Piper only by reputation.His case can only be fully explained, it seems, by himself.It is beginning to look like he has no intention of making any effort in this regard.I have done what I can.The sticks and stones have flown.Nothing has really changed. So I will respectively leave the arena with my opinions sound and intact. Cheers, tongascrew
     
  12. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

    Apr 5, 2010
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    Thankyou NeuroBreaker for all of your hard work as a moderator. Thanks as well for your extremely informative information regarding why Miura SV was banned. Unfortunately for some posters they will either ignore your reasoning or simply construct some complete conspiracy theory. I only obsessively visit the Vintage threads and I am frequently appalled by the number of members that join only intending to derail threads with their own agenda's. This has happened with the 0384AM thread, various 250LM thread's and based on your statement Miura SV was trying to do the same with this thread.

    I am all for allowing any range of opinions, because it is from argument back and forth that we all learn the truth, by compromise or by scientific style argument. However where someone posts an expert opinion and the doubters simply reply with the same old argument against, even when the posted expert opinion has shown that same old argument to be false, they still push it. And all because they have appointed themselves as the one arbiter of what is correct.

    So thanks Andrew for keeping this thread open and alive.
     
  13. wax

    wax Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 20, 2003
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    To a few of us, it was patently obvious that Three Card Monte was the name of the game.
     
  14. Drive550PFB

    Drive550PFB Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Well, I wouldn't know about a 'cheap law case.'

    But let's look at Forghieri's statement. His initial statement was a pretty unambiguous assertion. However as more facts emerged, he started to "walk back" his original statement. (This is PRECISELY the point of cross examination--to flush out details and contradictions.) And as still more facts emerged, he basically recanted his original statement. Or if you prefer, he shot his own statement so full of holes that it would not hold water.

    And then there is his correspondence with Jim.

    So, 'if this is the best you got' as a good country lawyer says, then you are sure on thin ice.

    At best MF is a weak witness. The reality is that his statements end up in favor of Jim.
     
  15. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #7090 Napolis, Dec 28, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    True.

    It's also nice to note that in the Official Ferrari Magazine #9 there's an article on my 512S Modulo, my 330P3/4 0846 and Flavio Manzoni the new head of Ferrari Design featuring a photo of 0846 that I sent to Ferrari as restored by me as a coupe before I restored her as a Spyder.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  16. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    Apr 20, 2004
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    Photo is printed backwards...;)
     
  17. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #7092 Napolis, Jan 6, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The good news remains that Ferrari used the photo I provided them of Ferrari P 3/4 0846 as first restored by me and at least they identified it correctly. As there is only one Ferrari P 3/4 all is good...
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  18. moriaan1

    moriaan1 Formula 3

    Dec 3, 2006
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    Hans
    #7093 moriaan1, Feb 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  19. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

    Oct 6, 2007
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    Vincent Vangool
  20. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

    Jul 1, 2004
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    Meade certainly made the 330 sexier.

    john
     
  21. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 World Champ
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  22. stevenwk

    stevenwk F1 Veteran

    Apr 12, 2007
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    Hans,
    Was this 'scratch' built or from a kit?
    Feeling 43 perhaps?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  23. MBPaki

    MBPaki Formula Junior

    Nov 30, 2008
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    #7098 MBPaki, May 10, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Probably from a kit by Andre Marie Ruf (Annecy Miniatures).
    Maybe you like my collection of P4.
    Best, Miki-Paki.
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  24. moriaan1

    moriaan1 Formula 3

    Dec 3, 2006
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    correct Paki, based on an amr/annecy.

    Your set is phenomenal!! (and 1 of 3??)
     
  25. MBPaki

    MBPaki Formula Junior

    Nov 30, 2008
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    Miki Bellagarda
    Grazie Hans,
    I don't know if 1 of 3 or 1 of 5.
    Best, Miki-Paki.
     

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