Thanks Pete. I suspect the winning bidder if there is one should have the pocket depth and hopefully does not possess tiny little alligator arms that can't reach his wallet early on enough to do the homework necessary to verify and be assured of the veracity of all claims made by the vendors and related horse in the race parties prior to stepping up.
I'm a little curious as I've never bought a car from an auction or any car that needs more than a visual check. How does this work, because I can see the verification process requiring 6 months work. Can you purchase subject to completion of this verification and return the vehicle for a full refund if it fails this process? I assume the car being auctioned does not get advertised 6 months+ ahead so there is time to do this research. Otherwise you are stuck with having to believe what you know or are shown. Pete
What I tell you in darkness you must speak in the daylight, and what is whispered in your ear you must shout from the housetops.
Its better or worse than that depending on your perspective. Fortunately most of these cars are VERY well known and have inherent qualities which are already widely advertised. The actual conditions under which you bid are very well advertised. You agree to a contract when you agree to bid and each auction company will have a similar list of clauses effectively trying to make them a legal conjunct between you (the bidder) and whoever is the seller. They will go to great lengths to point out that they are making no claims for provenance of any lot and that any claims made are made on the sellers behalf. However they term it, a buyer still has protection under the consumer guarantees act of any western nation, including the legal claim for false advertising. If something is advertised as lemon, when in fact the seller new it was an orange, if the seller knows that the vehicle is a fake you have a claim. This only covers you for what the vehicle is described as. If you want to read more about the legality for a vendor or a an auction company, read the #0384AM thread but be warned it could take hours and be totally bewildering. Don't say you havent been warned. There will also be other laws that protect you but in a situation such as this, 5 minutes on the net would give you time enough to know that #5899 is not a "clean" car. That would surely negate the ability to argue "I am sorry your honor, but I didnt know the could be a fake/rebuild/semi-fake/ resto-mod etc." unless the bidder lives in a cave. AND it would take a brave auction company to actually state that the car was something it wasn't and if there is any doubt they say "we believe" or "we have been informed", another favorite is "our understanding is". As for allowing a potential bidder to actually undergo some form of a forensic test on the actual vehicle, apart from perhaps a fully qualified bidder being allowed to view the vehicle with his chosen expert/ agent and take a test drive, which would be okay. My understanding is that otherwise it would be extremely unlikely to EVER happen. In the case of buying like 5899 you really do have to speak to your agent and check your facts or just take a punt and think Marcel's report says it contains the remains of #5899 and it will get me entry to any and all race meets and either way make up your own mind. I am personally absolutely certain that they would never, ever allow you to forensically examine a vehicle, I mean what if 3 or 4 people all wanted to carry out their own examination with their own chosen Ferrari expert? The one possible remedy is they usually describe various parties who have worked on the vehicle to be sold, in this case, "After sourcing its original engine, Schouwenberg sold the car to Eric Stewart, of the British pop band 10CC. It was Stewart who finally committed to bringing the car back to life in its original configuration. In 1977, he commissioned a restoration by Victor Norman and Bob Houghtons Rosso Limited in Cirencester, England. To refit a proper 250 LM body, the original chassis was sent to Ferraris Assistenza Clienti in Modena and subsequently William Vaccari for restoration. The renewal was completed in May 1981 and Stewart got behind the wheel for the first time for a test drive at Goodwood shortly thereafter. Following its departure from Stewarts ownership, the newly restored 250 LM was sold briefly to Germany, after which it was shipped to its next keeper, a resident of La Jolla in the United States, and it would remain in California with a handful of collectors throughout the early 1980s. Travelling further west, the 250 LM was sent to Japan, where it resided until 1992 before returning to Europe and finding new ownership in England. Lord Irvine Laidlaw, noted collector of pedigreed racing machinery, purchased the Ferrari in July 1995 and soon had it fully overhauled and serviced by Phil Stainton. The car was sold two years later to Federico Della Noce and Andrè Lara Resende, who would commission yet another restoration to meet the rising standards of the day. Chassis 5899 was sent to Dino Cognolatos Carrozzeria Nova Rinascente in Vigonza, Italy, and mechanical work was performed by Corrado Patella. Cognolato rectified the front body work of the car to correct the radiator housing, and it was then sent to Carrozzeria Autosport of Bacchelli e Villa in Bastiglia for final preparation and a fresh refinishing in the original Rosso Cina" So maybe you could check with Carrozeria Autosport or Dino Cognolato or Corrado Patella, Symbolic Motors, hell even Bob Houghton is still around and I would expect he would possibly be willing to advise. I am confident that if you were fully qualified or say already a customer or theirs, they would probably give you all the information you want? but if you aren't then they would possibly not due to client confidentiality. As ever I would suppose it a simple matter of buyer beware.
Putting #5899 aside for the moment, I am not aware of any auction house that allows purchase subject to inspection. They generally have disclaimers that put the responsibility for due diligence on the purchaser. If outright fraud occurs and can be proven sales have been cancelled in some cases. it all depends on the circumstances. The rest sort depends on your level of commitment. $ extra large can cover a lot of ground quickly and accomplish a lot in a short period of time. In most cases you usually have a month or so. The trick is to know who to turn to within the community who has the depth of knowledge, skill set and network resources to pull it off and hire them if you are comfortable with their CV (For Ferrari Marcel is always a good place to start) You can also contact the individual official marque club for access to knowledgeable members who may be willing to help and provide access to competent knowledgeable members, concours judging personnel, archives, archivists and experienced top restoration experts etc. all who might be available to do research work or inspection for compensation. Many can turn out to just be very helpful in order to stop the spread of misinformation and fraud. Often the auction house will allow or arrange for a qualified potential purchaser and their hired guns to have access to the lot for inspection (we are talking about major $ lots here). Lesser $ important lots often may not have much pre-event accessibility due to the lot not being delivered to the auction site by the consignee until a few days before the event. The auction house may have limited manpower and that with all the dealing and hand-holding and all else that has to happen with the high maintenance consignees and qualified high maintenance potential big $ buyers for the high $ lots that it can be a daunting enough task that the lower gross sales commission lots may suffer from lack of attention. That said if they are a serious outfit they should attempt to make what information they have available to you and put you together with the vendor in order to help facilitate the lots sale. After all that is what they are in business for. Just keep in mind they do have a self serving motive to do so and make sure you independently verify, inspect, check and recheck any and all statements and the documentation that they or the vendors have provided along with any subsequent research the auction house may have conducted independently beforehand. If they or the vendor are not cooperative and make the above process difficult that becomes a red flag. With today's technology a lot can revealed with non destructive forensic testing in a very short order. Be suspicious of everything provided by the vendor and don't be afraid to ask for independent confirmation if you are uncomfortable with anything. Above all realize even the best experts get fooled on occasion.
Hell, if you read Sports Car Market, you will read that at most general American Multi-day auctions car auctions in the USA ala Mecum or Barrett-Jackson or Russo & Steele, they don't even allow you to look inside the car, much less open the bonnet. It does become a lottery but then bargains can equal out the rip - offs. For a little texture, most of the classy auction companies will utilize their crew to ensure they closely connect with their "whale's". When you watch the truly professional auctions they will sometimes take a minute allowing a whale to ponder whether to make just one more bid. And you can guarantee their will be a auction company rep. sitting next to him or her saying "one more bid and its your car......" For some reason or other they also provide cheap (or free) drinks at many auctions, something about drunk people bidding more
No way I'd spend that much money in an auction situation, no way. Would never buy a house that way either. I'd want to do some research on the cars history, and literally crawl all over the car ... Pete
"if you read Sports Car Market, you will read that at most general American Multi-day auctions car auctions in the USA ala Mecum or Barrett-Jackson or Russo & Steele, they don't even allow you to look inside the car, much less open the bonnet." I don't know what bad personal experiences with these companies the authors of the articles you speak of may have had, but I have personally participated in all three companies various events many times over the last 18 years as a vendor- purchaser for my own account or vendor- purchasers representative and found the above behavior not to be the case. All companies provide auction event onsite preview opportunities beforehand. Cars sometimes have to sadly be kept locked in order to prevent various unscrupulous A** H***s and vandals from pilfering various difficult to replace original items (radio knobs. gearshift knobs, air cleaner wing nuts, radiator caps etc) or damage either occurring from some said AH, vandal or other damage that some innocent spectators mishandling can cause during some aspect of the opportunity to inspect. In any case every time I have encountered a locked car that did not already have a sign in it stating for access or further information regarding this lot please contact a auction company representative or the auction company office, I simply went to the onsite auction office and demonstrated myself as a qualified potential purchaser or their representative and was accommodated by auction company personal who accompanied me to the subject lot and went overboard to provide more than reasonable access to the lots interior, engine compartment and trunk etc. If there was a tool kit, books, spare parts or any documentation to be reviewed full access was provided generally with a smile. Keep in mind that there is a lot for the companies personnel to accomplish and deal with in the short time available until the sale commences (including items such transporter's breaking down and arriving late or with damaged goods from bad loading, uneducated vendors showing up with improper titles, no titles, or fake paperwork, cars springing last minute surprise mechanical problems, event equipment logistical and security issues etc. etc) so try to be professionally sincere and not be a wanabe be tire kicker pain in the A** and you should be treated likewise and if not take your business elsewhere
" ... David Piper in England had built at least two or eventually three brand new chassis for 250 LMs during 1980-81. One of these new chassis frames was used for the reconstruction of 250 LM S/N 5899 which was then owned by Mr. Eric Stewart in Great Britain. The rebuild was done by Rosso Limited/Victor Norman in England, using a few original parts. They also built a complete new body for LM 5899 but its shape is wrong since the roof section is too flat and the front end not correct like the original Scaglietti nose. In fact, one could say that LM 5899 is a replica, since there were nearly no original parts left to build the new car. ... " This is Mr. Massini's statement in writing from Sept. 24, 1986.
My compliments and thanks again for the good work and contributing. I am curious to where this was published. Was it from his LM Book? Any update in his newly revised book that may change the implication of Marcel's statement? In any case that makes a good case for the conclusion and answer to the " original chassis sent to Ferraris Assistenza Clienti in Modena and subsequently William Vaccari repair" question.
During the time 5899 was in La Jolla, California, Symbolic Motors was never involved with it. The only dealer in that area which had any connection to 5899 was Grand Prix Classics.
Cavallino n. 39. However, any input to the miraculous transition of the car from a replica to an 'original' and the metamorphosis of Mr. Massini's opinion is certainly welcome.
Might be taking your comments too literally but the presence of a Massini report DOES not in anyway mean anything. Marcel would state within each report what he knows to be original and what is altered, where known. The Red Book is a totally different manner, and who the hell knows what basis other than making money, Ferrari base's their authority on.....
"who the hell knows what basis other than making money, Ferrari base's their authority on....." I have heard in Modena locals report that in the past and currently it is based on the Maranello Magic Mushroom Marinara sauce.
Yeah, well perhaps the classiche certified car will suit the sort of person that wears their Puma/ Ferrari team tracksuit, Ferrari trainers, Ferrari sunglasses, Ferrari deoderant, Ferrari aftershave, Ferrari jacket, uses a Ferrari cellphone and on and on. Ahem wanker Ahem. Maybe this guy will be that MAN.... Image Unavailable, Please Login
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/68118-250-lm-hans-illert-lm-p-s-n-5899-a.html Pete
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/135271038-post12.html and http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/135342176-post15.html Pete
After Werner Biederman flipped the car, Hans Illert cut and shortened the chassis rear and front, removed the oil- and water cooling system and shortened the wheelbase (2300 mm) to fit the Carrera 6 body (LM-P). Pierre Sudan further modified the rear to install a 330 engine and a larger gearbox (330 LM-P). As well known, the oil- and water pipes are an integral part of the LM-chassis. If you bend, hurt or modify a LM-chassis, any repair gets difficult, requires special skills, is expensive, the result fragile and a replacement more economic, easier and provides better results in measurement and stiffness. This was the case with 6045 and the situation with 5899, when 1977-81 Eric Stewart and Vic Norman used a *new* chassis (as well as some new body) and built a car with the papers of 5899. Massimo Colombo later claimed to own the real remains of 5899 and sold them on 27.1.1989 to Fulvio Visioli. But Ferrari denied on 28.6.1989 to William Vaccari and Fulvio Visioli, that these *numberless* derelicts are indentifiable as the remains of 5899 (or any original LM-chassis). Ferrari explained, that the showed chassis is a *reconstruction* (che si tratta di una riconstruzione) and essential elements of identification are missing (mancano i elementi indispensabli didentificazione). And on 25.9.89, Ferrari pointed out (precisiamo), that this chassis number will be registered in their archives as detroyed (questo numero di telaio verrà registrato nei nostri archivi come distrutto). Finally, these tubes missing *any* paperwork and identification were confiscated (sequestrato) on 17.06.93 upon Ferraris request. Well, what chassis is today in the car and Classiche certified? And what happened with the *second* 5899, expertised 1992 from Christian Huet and located around 1994 in Japan?
+1! One more time a very interesting case of butchery. But nevertheless a fascinating car with fascinating history!
Fascinating history indeed, but I dont feel it was butchery. Just the way race cars were used in period. After the accident and very heavy modification of the chassis for the 906 body, the frame had to be replaced in 1977 with a new one. But today, what chassis is in the car and has been classiched in 2005? This question is open, after Ferrari officially declared 1989 in writing, that the numberless Massimo Colombo tubes - claiming to be the original remains - are a riconstruzione (reconstruction) and #5899 is no more. Lets see and wait, what miracles occur, the market says or hired experts disclose. But please: no kindergarten!
Butchery: you proved and you denied it in three sentences. In order to fit the Carrera 6-body they modfied the chassis heavily. They cut the frame in half to short the wheelbase, they cut away parts of the frame in the front and in the back, and finally they shut the complexe oil and water system down by simply removing the pipes out of the frame. Later they had to hack the engine bay to fit the 330 and its bigger gear box. That's what I meant with butchery... And when you keep all that in mind it's impossible that the car still sports its original frame. Strong statement by you, that the factory declared 5899 to be gone. Can you proof that? No kindergarten, just collecting the facts!
"In order to fit the Carrera 6-body they modfied the chassis heavily. They cut the frame in half to short the wheelbase, they cut away parts of the frame in the front and in the back, and finally they shut the complexe oil and water system down by simply removing the pipes out of the frame. Later they had to hack the engine bay to fit the 330 and its bigger gear box. That's what I meant with butchery... And when you keep all that in mind it's impossible that the car still sports its original frame." Smells like one more Factory Baptized Anointed Replica "Oh Happy BIG $ Days For One And All"
