Need some help on pads - Pagid doesn't know... | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Need some help on pads - Pagid doesn't know...

Discussion in '360/430' started by singletrack, May 9, 2014.

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  1. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    : (

    At least you caught it now.

    Yes - rear pads are the same.
     
  2. MaranelloDave

    MaranelloDave Formula 3

    Apr 27, 2010
    2,203
    LA
    Full Name:
    Dave
    K, thanks. I'll let everyone know what Vivid says. It was their mistake. The pad was a bit different in shape, but we assumed the reason was because it's from a different manufacturer.
     
  3. bldscud

    bldscud Karting

    Aug 19, 2011
    110
    Washington DC Area
    #28 bldscud, May 15, 2014
    Last edited: May 15, 2014
    I ordered RSC1 pads for my Scud, and Paragon sent me the 8083s for the front. After reading this thread, I started looking into it more. The 8083s are listed by Pagid as correct for the F430. The 8091s certainly look like the OEM pads, while the 8093s look very different. The 8091s are listed by Pagid for the Challenge car, but Pagid's site does not say anything about using them for the Scud. Are the Scud's front rotors the same size as on the Challenge car?

    What source can I go to to confirm that the 8091 pads are the correct ones for the Scud front brakes? I want to be sure I have the right pads on before I go to the track in a few weeks, but have not been able to find any official confirmation that the 8091s are correct. It sure seems from all the comments on this thread that 8091s are clearly the right pads - I would just feel a lot more comfortable if the manufacturer (Pagid) specifies them for the Scud.

    I'm glad I saw this thread. Certainly don't like the idea of going to the track again with the wrong front brake pads on.
     
  4. MaranelloDave

    MaranelloDave Formula 3

    Apr 27, 2010
    2,203
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    Full Name:
    Dave
    I spoke to Vivid Racing who I got the 8083s from. When they ordered my pads from their distributor they explicitly stated the pads were for the 430 scuderia. They are investigating the matter to (1) make sure the 8091s are indeed the right pads and (2) if so, figure out whether it's their fault or their distributor's fault. Will report back with what I hear.

    Singletrack: Where did you get your 8091s? Vivid tells me they are on back order. They also tell me hat the 8091s are about twice the cost of the 8083s.
     
  5. bldscud

    bldscud Karting

    Aug 19, 2011
    110
    Washington DC Area
    It seems that you made the right choice first time, while many of the rest of us got bad advice from various sources to go with 8083s. How did you choose the 8091s?
     
  6. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Through iND Distribution. I have not received an ETA yet though; possible they are backordered. That would suck because I have a track day next Friday. : (
     
  7. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Yes - same size - 398mm. The only difference is in the hat. The hat on the Challenge cars is a center lock. The hat on the Scud is of course a 5 bolt.

    I think this is as good as you will do. I would expect Pagid to clear this up going forward now that they have two problems with Vivid and iND.

    Concur - scary with the tremendous power of this car; and the very expensive brakes!
     
  8. MaranelloDave

    MaranelloDave Formula 3

    Apr 27, 2010
    2,203
    LA
    Full Name:
    Dave
    Thanks. Can you provide a link that shows the price for the 8091s? I searched and couldn't find one. I want to compare their price to Vivid's.
     
  9. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I do not have one yet. I'll be happy to PM you once I get an invoice. They have my card on file so I get this after the fact; not ordering through a website. : )
     
  10. MaranelloDave

    MaranelloDave Formula 3

    Apr 27, 2010
    2,203
    LA
    Full Name:
    Dave
    Got it, thanks. Still haven't heard back on availability from Vivid. Hoping they will be able to get the 8091 pads soon. I have a track day coming up as well.
     
  11. bldscud

    bldscud Karting

    Aug 19, 2011
    110
    Washington DC Area
    I purchased front pads for my Scud from Paragon last September. At that time, Pagid said the 8083s were the right pads and that is what they sent me. As a result of this thread, I started checking and talked with my Paragon rep. He called Pagid. They now say that the 8091s are the right front pads for the Scud - not sure why their position has changed. I worked out a resolution with my Paragon rep, and they are sending me new 8091 front pads first thing Monday morning.

    In case you are looking for availability, Paragon has the 8091s in stock. The price is within a few dollars of the 8083s (about $700)..
     
  12. MaranelloDave

    MaranelloDave Formula 3

    Apr 27, 2010
    2,203
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    Full Name:
    Dave
    Great, thanks. So they have 8091s in stock? Seems like most retailers do not.
     
  13. bldscud

    bldscud Karting

    Aug 19, 2011
    110
    Washington DC Area
    As of this afternoon, they have them in stock. If you want the contact info for the rep at Paragon I have dealt with, let me know.
     
  14. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I got my set this morning. They came from FL 2-day air from Pagid I believe. No mention of backorder for me.

    Going to bleed the brakes over to Motul RBF600 and install these tonight or tomorrow : )
     
  15. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    #40 singletrack, May 21, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Installed them. Bled the brakes to Motul RBF600. Bedded the pads (did not get arrested!). Ready to rock for first track day on Friday : )

    Some noteS:

    I broke two of the pad wear sensors getting them off. They are made of plastic. After swearing a few times, I just cable tied them off the two wheels in question. These are straight-up useless on the Scud. By the time these things activate, you will have crushed your rotors IMHO. You have to wear through about 75% of the pad to get to them. At that point, at least on the RSC1's, you will be into the metal studs that hold the pad material on. I would not recommend disconnecting them as I would ASSume this will result in a brake light on the dash. I did not confirm this though.

    Other hilarious/Italian car thing. I found no reliable way to set the fluid level to max without the use of a mirror and a light. The "MAX" line is on the rear of the reservoir facing the cabin. Looking through the opening into the fluid was impossible - at least for me.

    I also used the Motive system that teachdocs recommended and really liked it. Thanks again man - saved me so much time researching, etc. 15-20PSI is the sweet spot for bleeding. This is soooooo much easier than the old fashion way.

    Despite the brake fluid being changed just 4k miles ago, there was a decent amount of air (lots of tiny bubbles) in the inside FL caliper and the outside FR caliper. Color looked good; maybe one shade off the RBF600; could just be a brand difference; I have not pushed the brakes hard for sustained periods of time.

    As always, when switching to new pads, check the reservoir as you spread the calipers and insert the new pads. Mine got right up to the rim by the time I got to the 4th corner.

    I used a little syringe to remove the correct amount of fluid from the reservoir at the end. ALWAYS release the pressure on the motive system at the pump top on the motive unit; not at the connection to the reservoir. Do so slowly. The motive unit has excellent instructions printed right on it.

    I was able to get it on my lift which I was worried about because the car is so wide. In reality, the lift points are slightly easier to hit than on my e92 m3. Once I got everything lined up it was really great. I have to use little ramps to get the proper clearance for the lift - I need to do this on all my cars. I'm having the lift re-done into a wider position soon which should make things easier. The floor is marked now for the ramps, so I know exactly where to put the car in the future.

    Bedding procedure I followed:

    16 runs
    50 to 20 LIGHT
    2 min cooldown @ 50; no brakes

    16 runs
    75 to 20 MEDIUM
    3 min cooldown @ 50; no brakes

    9 runs
    80 to 20 MEDIUM-HIGH
    4 min cooldown @ 50; no brakes

    3 runs
    125 to stop HIGH - activate ABS
    5 min cooldown @ 50; no brakes

    One quick pic; and the official Ferrari doc I followed for the bedding (steps 1,2, and 4 - you skip 3 if going to the track)

    Hope this helps!
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    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  16. MaranelloDave

    MaranelloDave Formula 3

    Apr 27, 2010
    2,203
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    Thanks for the write-up. One thing: I don't think the RSC1s use metal studs like the Brembos. If you look at the back of the pads, the backing plate has openings that the pad material fills. This provides the mechanical connection between the pad material and the plate (they are also adhered with adhesive). Regardless, I agree that you want to change the pads well before the sensors are activated. I think it's like this in most cars though.

    I just ordered 8091s. I will be returning the 8083s and have been promised a refund. Will report on this later as it has been a struggle to get this result. Anyway, the Pagid rep my retailer was dealing with waffled about whether or not the 8083s are okay for use on the scud, presumably because Pagid didn't want to pay the refund for sending me the wrong pads (it's not clear who got it wrong, the retailer or Pagid). When we pushed the rep about use of the 8083s on the scud however (e.g., hard braking on the track), he acknowledged that the 8083s are "not optimal" because of the reduced surface area as compared to the 8091s. This indicates to me pretty definitively that the 8091s are correct and the 8083s are not. This has not been clear in my situation as even the Pagid reps were uncertain as to which pads should go on the car.
     
  17. bldscud

    bldscud Karting

    Aug 19, 2011
    110
    Washington DC Area

    The Pagid Rep I dealt with (through my retailer) said similar things. First, he said Ferrari must have changed the brake specs on the Scud if the 8091 was the correct pad. I pointed out that the 8083 was listed on the Pagid website for the F430, the 8091 was listed for the 430 Challenge car, but nothing was listed for the Scud. However, with the Scud having the same size rotor as the Challenge car, the 8091 must be the right pad. I also pointed out that the Scud OEM shape was identical to the 8091 shape, and very different than the 8083 shape. He then said that the 8083 would work, but that obviously the 8091 would give better stopping power due to the larger surface area. Pagid seems to now agree that 8091 is the correct pad for the Scud.

    Bottom line, it seems that this Pagid rep did not know what he was talking about initially. Pagid makes the OEM pads for the F430, Scud, and 430 Challenge car, so we should be able to expect that they give accurate advice on which of the Pagid branded pads are right for the Scud. It is disappointing that the rep of the manufacturer of the Scud OEM pads didn't do his homework before recommending the wrong pads to us.
     
  18. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ugh. Sorry for your troubles!!

    If you look at teachdocs pics, there does appear to be metal studs holding the RSC1 pads on. Those depressions you mention are present in the stock pads, but hidden by a rubber backing plate.

    The 8091s are the EXACT same size as stock. There is no question they are correct.

    Good luck man!
     
  19. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Concur! I bet this rash of orders/issues resolves it :) We shall see.
     
  20. MaranelloDave

    MaranelloDave Formula 3

    Apr 27, 2010
    2,203
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    Ah, I see what you're saying. I think that is different from the back plate of the 8083s.
     
  21. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    First track day down at Pitt Race and the brakes were exceptional - best I've ever driven. Prior best was the brembo kit + RS-29s on my M3. These have very similar feel, but with more stopping power...or perhaps it is a better ABS computer, or just the effect of a lighter car. In any event, they held up great and had no issues.

    The Pirellis held me back and were the weakest link on the car. They are kind of scary quite honestly. To get to 32-34 temps hot, I had to go out with them fairly low and it took a good 3 laps to get them up to temp. They are not as predictable as the MPSS either and I had some fun corrections which probably looked dramatic from behind or the bleachers. : )

    Got signed off for group 3 for my next track event - amazing day. Thanks to fchat for all the tremendous knowledge and help!

    Reaction to the car was amazing - everyone loved seeing it out and I got many compliments on the sound from a wide variety of drivers of many makes.
     
  22. MaranelloDave

    MaranelloDave Formula 3

    Apr 27, 2010
    2,203
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    Full Name:
    Dave
    Thanks for the report. Just to be clear, you have the PZero Corsas on your car?
     
  23. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Yes currently. Trying to get MPSS mounted before next event.
     
  24. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,291
    socal
    To save yourself time everyone should know the FMSI # for their front and rear brake pads. Then you call any pad maker and ask if they have xyz pad compound in FMSI # abc. They will say yes or no and you don't have to guess fitment. You can go to a manufacturer website for a pad you know works for your car. There is usually a cross reference guide to that pad's FMSI number. That number is a universal number for all pads of that metal backing shape.
     
  25. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 29, 2010
    19,897
    Wyoming
    Scud on the track...hard to beat that for fun!

    Ummm...do I really have to ask...post the GO PRO video!! (new thread warranted).
     

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