1962 GTO sells for $35 Million | Page 3 | FerrariChat

1962 GTO sells for $35 Million

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Gran Drewismo, Jun 1, 2012.

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  1. Atombender

    Atombender Karting

    Apr 6, 2012
    178
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Alex
    If we go after race history, how does a podium at Le Mans compare to an overall victory at a "lesser" race like Targa Florio, Tourist Trophy, Tour de France or 12h Sebring?

    We all know that Le Mans is the ultimate test and 3705GT's 2nd place and 3757GT's 3rd place in '62 still stands out for me plus both cars also have tons of solid hillclimb finishes.
     
  2. thecheddar

    thecheddar Formula 3

    Jun 29, 2006
    1,057
    Santa Monica
    Full Name:
    Cheddar, The
    I do love any opportunity to gaze at a genuine GTO (and especially a non-red one!). However, the context of its current coverage -- the price tag -- is a little disappointing.

    My uncle (and his childhood friend who has rebuilt many forum members' cars over the decades) was the one who stoked my interest in vintage Ferraris as a kid. Gazing at a garage filled with historic racers being serviced has that effect on a boy. Coincidentally, he also turned me on to the art of the 20th Century masters, which I'm nearly as enthusiastic about. Sadly, I think the current price reported here (and the other grossly inflated ones of recent auctions) is a reminder that vintage Ferraris and 20th Century art have officially ceased to become "cars" or "art" and crossed definitively over to "assets."

    IMHO, a $35 million valuation is a truly obscene amount for a car, regardless of importance. But so too is that much for a painting and that number in art hasn't been uncommon at all for years. At this level though, I fear it ceases to be a car or painting and becomes something to invest in when you've run out of things to invest in: More fun than a pile of gold, surely, but definitely more a part of one's portfolio than their garage.

    I've no doubt that McCaw will enjoy and share his new car thoroughly, as he has with others. But given the tag upon it (and other Ferraris of late), I think it's only a matter of time before all the early F-cars are rendered to museums and billionaires' balance sheets, not the streets for which they were built.

    Like the Picassos I used to look at with my Uncle, the $100 million GTO is no longer unthinkable, yet I don't think our little hobby is the better for it.

    2¢ of Cheddar.
     
  3. Atombender

    Atombender Karting

    Apr 6, 2012
    178
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Alex
    I remember an article in the now defunct Auto Becker magazine about his museum in San Marino and he mentioned that for several years he drove the car every day to his office and back, just like one would do in any other car. He was also a huge Abarth fan.
     
  4. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
    10,014
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJj3A7iHiBw[/ame]
     
  5. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
    12,143
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Onno
    Sorry, but that just doesn't fit with reality. 250GTO's cleared the $million barrier 30 years ago. 30 years they have been assets already, much more than just a car. Nevertheless, I see a real GTO at least once every year, quite often drifting on 4 wheels, practically doorhandle to doorhandle. To suggest that suddenly this will change because they sell for $35million instead of $25 million or 10 million is just not logical.

    There will always be owners like Mason and Bamford who use their cars, and there will always be owners like Lauren who only display their cars as static objects, or others who will not display them. it is like that with every valuable model out there.

    Onno
     
  6. DAYTONASME

    DAYTONASME Formula Junior

    Jan 12, 2007
    646
    Manchester UK
    Full Name:
    DAYTONASME
    +1 Onno, and long may it continue at the Goodwood Revival and elsewhere..

    A long-time former GTO owner once said to me,"If I "crunch" this, you do realise its not going to cost me any more to repair than your 330 GT"....wise words, and a good enough reason alone to keep racing them.

    Ed
     
  7. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

    Oct 18, 2009
    8,178
    Worcester, England
    Full Name:
    Phill J
    According to AOL's Huffingtonpost site:

    Another seller is Chris Evans, with the radio presenter understood to have sold his Series II Ferrari 250 GTO for around $28 million (£18mM) - a $10 million (£6.5m) profit in just two years.

    Evans is thought to have sold the GTO to help fund a more expensive Series I.


    How accurate that information is though, I'm not sure.
     
  8. 430 scuderia

    430 scuderia Guest

    Jun 10, 2008
    813
    Ok, maybe it is sounds silly but the only think that i don't like on the is the colour....!

    Best
     
  9. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
    41,690
    Sarasota
    Full Name:
    David
    More an icon than an asset.
     
  10. Manel Baró

    Manel Baró Karting

    Mar 31, 2009
    70
    Well said ! Suggest discuss car investment elsewhere. Many tks!
     
  11. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 29, 2004
    12,582
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Peter den Biggelaar
    I have to disagree. There are less and less vintage Ferraris participating in events and one very well known historian also pointed out to me that cars like these are more and more sold to investors, not enthusiasts who use them. Over time this will get worse because the collectors of the past who did use these cars in events are getting very old and who is going to follow their footsteps? That last bit is the most important part of it all for us who like to watch these cars at events.

    Peter
     
  12. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    I recently talked to an Executive of a large auction house. He said the game is changing.

    There are a new group of inventors who are bidding against each other and ALL they care about is Ferrari's Classiche certificate. They believe if they buy it they can flip it for more in a short time. What the real history is does not matter to them. If Ferrari says it's OK then it's OK and that's all the people they're flipping to care about.

    Interesting shift.
     
  13. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
    12,143
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Onno
    ?

    Surely it is a $35m asset to the owner. He doesn't care if it is an icon, he just wants his money back (or more) eventually.


    Onno
     
  14. GTE

    GTE F1 World Champ

    Jun 24, 2004
    10,117
    The Netherlands
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    Marnix
    But what exactly is the difference between the two? They both have to have serious cash in order to buy such a car and they probably both believe the car will only increase in value. The difference is that for the investor, the expected increase in value is the only reason to buy the car in the first place. The enthusiast buys the car because he wants to own it and perhaps even wants to use it. If today's market is such that most GTO's are owned by investors, than perhaps the market will change again where most owners are enthusiasts. Who knows?

    Besides that, there is no telling how the values of classic competitioncars will develop. It will not be for long when the potential buyers are too young to have ever witnessed with their own eyes how these cars were being driven in anger. They will grow up in a digital world. How much will they care for a very much analogue car? Or any car for that matter? Today the 250 GTO is an icon, but one day it will be a fossil.
     
  15. Cris Bertschi

    Cris Bertschi Formula Junior

    Mar 3, 2005
    801
    Buenos Aires
    Full Name:
    Cristián Bertschi
    Partially agree.
    It seems to me that there are more bidders than underbidders...
     
  16. Atombender

    Atombender Karting

    Apr 6, 2012
    178
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Alex
    This. For them the car is just another commodity to get their hands on. If they end up selling it at a loss, they will never buy one again. Pure speculation. And there are more and more millionaires each year pushing into the market.

    The true enthusiasts are long time owners who got one long before the speculation bubble and they both keep the car and use it. After all no one could predict a price jump like that.
     
  17. thecheddar

    thecheddar Formula 3

    Jun 29, 2006
    1,057
    Santa Monica
    Full Name:
    Cheddar, The
    #67 thecheddar, Jun 3, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2012
    With respect Onno, I think those two examples you cite are outliers and fast becoming old men (who purchased theirs in lesser times). They will very definitely not always be around and the number of important F-cars being raced door to door (or even driven on roads) as they use theirs is in decline.

    But as you pointed out, it's true that there is nothing "sudden" about this. Ferraris have gone through bubbles before and "investors" are certainly back again. Given the concentration of wealth in our era, however, I don't think this trend will reverse and more will be snatched up by "owners" rather than "drivers." With so much money on the line, it's inevitable that we will see fewer old Ferraris of varying pedigree on roads & tracks and more squirreled away in climate-controlled, velvet-gloved storage.

    An economic and cultural shift is upon us: Cars are simply not what they once were to younger generations. The GTO is best known today as a thing of awesome monetary value, not an awesome winning machine. The nature of its iconic value has totally changed. The $35M price only underscores this fact and IMO the rest of the vintage Ferrari models will follow.
     
  18. IanB

    IanB F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 15, 2006
    15,624
    Sydney
    We always hear about the cars which produce outstanding returns, in the same way that the media publicises lottery wins, overnight billionaires and other 1 in a million happenings. Overall, I think Ferraris are a very ordinary investment, hyped by dealers and auction houses but otherwise producing returns which are outperformed by many asset classes.

    There is no doubt that people who trade cars professionally can make a lot of money, but a 250SWB bought in 1988 for circa $1.5m would today be worth circa $4m. That's 4% compound by my maths.

    It is sad to see cars locked away, for the sake of 4%...
     
  19. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
    10,014
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    Admittedly a vulgar question, I was wondering how much the 330 GTO and 330 LMB trade for in today's market?
     
  20. iwanna860monza

    iwanna860monza Karting

    Sep 19, 2004
    243
    Hate to disagree BUT

    Mr. Craig McCaw (or Rob Walton depending on who you believe), has been out and about in the 8C2.9 Alfa he bought, and I see no reason to believe that this car wont be used in all the usual places, Colorado Grand, GTO tour, Monterey Historics et al. Rob also drives his fleet fairly often.

    I do believe that we are seeing 1 of 2 games being played here either the really big players just going, too hell with it, I have a Billion $ and always wanted a xx Sparrari, and so they sell some stocks and buy it. Why not you cant spend it when you are dead. Well that goes for some of the buyers (new and old) and why not, after all most investments are pretty shaky. Lehman shares anyone ?

    Alternatively maybe we are seeing new collectors having a play?, this will make for very interesting times because there is nothing that screams bubble and burst more than someone buying products JUST FOR PROFIT. Doesnt anyone remember 1988 - 1991, when everyone wanted to buy a Ferrari, ANY FERRARI, and was willing to pay $ just to lock it away as an investment. If this happens again then we will see the same cycle re-occur.

    Not all doom & gloom though since one would suggest these cars have been shown "statically" a lot and if you wanted to add value you could suggest that race prepping your sparrari and then proving its ability could actually add some value. A buyer would almost certainly want to KNOW that she does actually drive..................
     
  21. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
    12,143
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Onno
    Proof? Classic events are more popular than ever, this is well documented. How many GTO's are participating in this year's celebrations? Quite a lot! How many were at Pebble Beach last year? The 250 GTO tour will go through France, ok in secret but still on public roads. The events organised with Classiche's blessing are well booked. Where is the evidence that these cars will only live in some guys cellar? And even if this is the case, how is this different from the past? Sure the Shell Historic Challenge is not there anymore, but what events were organised in 1992 compared to now?

    Furthermore, who says this trend can be extrapolated? I see absolutely no difference between today and 1990... This market will come down again and the speculators will disappear when they can't make an easy buck, just as they have done before.

    As for GTE's comment: I do not believe 250GTO's will become fossils at all. People have been saying that people will drive the cars of their youth for many decades. If it was true, then no-one would be interested in 1927 Bugattis anymore, but they are making more and more money. The fact is that fast cars are fast cars, and beautiful cars are just beautiful, no matter what era they are from, and people recognise the appeal of them. Why are people still participating in the London-Brighton run? Also don't forget that in 20 years' time the current cars will be very difficult to keep running due to software systems. As legislation is making it more and more difficult to enjoy fast cars, fun in classics will become ever more appealing. Many of our Dutch Fchat friends never had any interest in classics but in the five years I've been here I've seen a marked change. Lots of them are starting to see the appeal of vintage Ferraris. It is also easier than ever to get proper advice and knowledge about these cars. Sure, some parts will become harder and harder to get or will need to be remanufactured. If you were a Bugatti owner, you would say "welcome to my world".

    Nope, all in all I just don't see where all your pessimism is coming from. There is no evidence that I can see that watching vintage Ferraris on the road is about to come a thing of the past. But if it is, then I can at least win some best in shows with my GTC. :)


    Onno
     
  22. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,826
    Another exampla:
    I brokered an Alfa Romeo 33 Stradale last year. The owner had paid Euro 500k for it when he bought it in the mid-90s.
    The new buyer had to pay almost Euro 4m last year. So - thats a very nice profit.

    The guys who have tons of money can play with it for what ever they want and as long as the banks doesn`t give you any good interest for your cash, this current $$$- market situation with old cars (art and estate business) will stay...and grow.
     
  23. GTE

    GTE F1 World Champ

    Jun 24, 2004
    10,117
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Marnix
    I hope you are right Onno. What I am trying to say is that it is all about context and the 250GTO, or any vintage (competition)car needs the context of apprecation for cars in general, competitioncars in particular and more particular appreciation for vintage competition Ferrari's. Without that context, the 250 GTO is just a beautiful car that people will have forgotten about fairly quickly.

    Simply put, if you are not into cars. you will not want to own it and use it, let alone pay millions of dollars for it. And it is my believe that moving on in time, the combustable engine (which is the still the heart of any car) will become less and less a part of our lifes and in the end all context is gone. The chances of someone being born in the year 2100 being into cars are far less than of someone being born in the 1950. In 2012 a1927 Bugatti is only still interesting because a car still means something to those who are alive today, not because they were around in 1927.

    But again, I sincerely hope you are right.
     
  24. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
    12,143
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Onno
    Why are people still in awe of a 1927 T35, or the Percy-Hassan Special, or a 1914 Silver Ghost, or.... you name them?

    This stuff doesn't get forgotten. These cars have been written about for 5 decades or more. How cool is owning a car that so many books have been written about? These stories will be re-invented many times over.

    As for the demise of the combustion engine - even if regular cars are no longer allowed, the 250GTO will be used like steam trains are today. If any icon is indestructible, it is the 250GTO. If anything, 250GTO owners will have the money to build their own circuit and host their own racing parties. The 250GTO might become even MORE of an icon than before.

    As an aside, I find this talk of the demise of the combustion engine so tediously first-world. Go to exploding countries and continents like Africa, India or China. They are centuries away from giving up the combustion engine. People who think Priuses or Leafs will rule the world just haven't travelled enough. It is not possible for Africa to have US/European infrastructure to make electric cars (or something else) a success in the next 100 years. Since the liberation days of the 1960's, a fair bit of infrastructure has degraded, not upgraded. I don't say this to be nasty, but it is just a fact. When you're living on $1/day, like most 3rd world people are, being green is not a priority. In the West, we tend to forget about the other 80% of the global population....

    I'm telling you, cars will be around for a very long time still. Certainly in Africa. Perhaps we should chip together and build a track there where we can keep our 250GTO's in 25 years' time. I'm game!!! :)


    Onno
     
  25. silver1331

    silver1331 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 9, 2009
    520
    How are you picking 1988 as your initial price? that was during the previous boom...you couldve gotten a 250SWB for 1.3M in 2002...which using your $4m today would be a 12% annualized return.
     

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