What happened to the suppposed 25 versions of the 512S produced ? | Page 8 | FerrariChat

What happened to the suppposed 25 versions of the 512S produced ?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Kds, Jan 16, 2007.

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  1. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    I'm sure a lot of that happened in period. I think the important thing is Full Disclosure. As long as there is Full Disclosure people can decide for themselves what is what. There are Very few "Authentic" cars under FIVA definitions.

    3.2 VEHICLES PRESERVATION GROUPS
    Group 1 AUTHENTIC
    One vehicle, as originally produced, unaltered and with little deterioration. Completely
    original, including interior and exterior finish ; exceptions only for tyres, spark plugs,
    battery and other perishables.
    Group 2 ORIGINAL
    One vehicle as used but never restored, to original specification with a continuous
    history, and to original possibly deteriorated, condition. Parts that normally wear may be
    replaced with parts to period specification. Period replaced paintwork, plating and
    upholstery permitted.

    Dino Competizione is "Authentic".

    Jim's Chaparral's are "Original"

    Group 1 Authentic. This is very clear, as it stands and requires no other
    comments than : pay attention to the appearance of the "perishables" : tyres,
    sparkplugs, battery... must not appear "modern" nor out of period. In fact these
    vehicles are extremely rare but nowadays manufacturers are keeping undelivered
    examples.
    Group 2 Original. This is also very clear, but particular attention must be paid
    when considering what "period replaced" actually means. Also very rare, more
    examples are to be found in post 1945 period.
     
  2. Birel

    Birel Formula 3

    Sep 12, 2005
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    Andrew Turner
    I can confirm the car was the original when L. Stroll came to Bob Houghton's for a "fitting". From memory some of the pedal box was cut away and reconfigured for more room. At the time I thought it was rather tragic to to start hacking away at such an oiconic piece of race history, but then again I suppose it would have been done without a second thought if a big driver had appeared in period. Somewhere...!!!! I have pictures when it the car was was there, now only if I can remeber where ?
     
  3. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    I think it's obvious what Modulo's chassis number is. Go back to 68...
     
  4. fazzaz 512

    fazzaz 512 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2004
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    Manfred Lampe
    SPOT ON: The chassis dates back to 1968 and was outdated already a year later.
     
  5. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    0864
     
  6. Stephan2738

    Stephan2738 Rookie

    Aug 27, 2007
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    Stephan Hoekstra
    Was their only one SEFAC Ferrari 512 taken to the Targa Florio? Or was there also a Training car?
    I've read a story about there being a training car that ran into an accident with an Alfa. They believed the training car to be #1004, but that's not right as you pointed out, correctly, that #1004 was never a Spider. Pictures of a 512 with number 6T clearly show a Spider. They also claimed the race car to be #1012.
    Does the fact that there was a car with number 6T on it, automatically mean that there was a training car? Sounds plausible, if there was only one car it could have had number 6 for training as well, or is it also possible that a car had number 6T in training and that the same car had number 6 for the race? I'm asking this because i saw a photograph of the Ferrari with number 6 where it looked like the T from 6T was torn of, you could still see where the T had been and also part of the 6 was ripped off where the T had slightly overlapped it. To me this indicated that the race car was the same as the training car...
    I personally think SEFAC took only one car, #1012, to the Targa Florio in 1970. But if they took a second, which chassis was it?
     
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  7. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    Marc Sonnery
    When I contacted Nino Vaccarella he did say he had a coming together during Targa practice with Masten Gregory in an Alfa 33 and that whatever other chassis was there was the one he used in the actual race. From what I undertand 1004 was the practice car.

    Manfred do you still have the spare 712 engine or is that the one in the replica you mentioned earlier?
    it is very interesting to have people like you, Ed Niles, Doug Nye and Marcel when he feels like it aboard, it means maybe this internet thing is not just for teenagers;-)

    Also what is the condition of the 512 you have? A decade ago Gerald told me you had them -bits and chassis- in a container on the island you lived in?

    Best regards,

    Marc
     
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  8. Stephan2738

    Stephan2738 Rookie

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    Stephan Hoekstra
    I know the practice car can not be #1004, because on pictures the car with number 6T is clearly a Spider. Fazzaz 512 explained earlier that #1004 was never a Spider. So the practice car just can not be #1004.

    Is it #1042?
     
  9. fazzaz 512

    fazzaz 512 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2004
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    Manfred Lampe
    TWO cars were taken to the Targa Florio 1042 and 1012. In 1980 The factory wrote that the car in the race was 1012. Now they have gone through their files quite carefully and found that the car in the race was 1042.
     
  10. fazzaz 512

    fazzaz 512 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2004
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    Manfred Lampe
    A) I hope you are not implying that we are all old farts. I can't speek for the others, but I would be lost without your teenage machine.
    B) Beautiful, fast and noisy...
     
  11. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    scale model http://mamodels.com/Mod-37.gif
     
  12. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    I never would:) it is the people who actually have information and experience who make it interesting!

    MS
     
  13. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
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    Sep 7, 2004
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    Edwin K. Niles
    I don't mind having my name in the same sentence with "old fart". My "use by" date has long since expired; I should have been discarded years ago by any discerning house-keeper! Keep smiling. Ed
     
  14. Stephan2738

    Stephan2738 Rookie

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    Stephan Hoekstra
    Thank you very much for this (and all the other!) information you are sharing with us. It is very much appreciated!!
     
  15. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    Ed I can only wish my 80 year old father had your positive attitude:)

    Now here is a new wrench in the works: in the course of doing research on an unrelated matter one French mechanic who is an expert for another Modenese marque -he has been around since the sixties- told me that one 512 was made up as a bitsa after the filming of "Le Mans" wrapped up and solar productions sold the cars. I would have to ask him for more details but he was coy...

    What do you make of that?
     
  16. fazzaz 512

    fazzaz 512 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2004
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    Manfred Lampe
    The 512s 'obtained' by Solar Productions for the making of the movie came from private teams:
    N°1008 (512 S Berlinetta Long Tail from Filipinetti),
    N°1016 (512 S Berlinetta Long Tail from Filipinetti),
    N°1024 (512 S Berlinetta 'roller' from Jaques Swaters),
    N°1026 (512 S Berlinetta Long Tail from J Swaters),
    N°1036 (512 S Berlinetta Long Tail 'roller' from J Swaters),
    N°1044 (512 S Berlinetta Long Tail from J Swaters).
    In the past the rumours and stories on the cars in the movie have been numerous....
    Here is what I have assembled with supportung documents (bills of sale from Ferrari, McQueen's Solar Production, Shipping Documents, Custom Documents, and historic photos):
    N°1008 was sold on after the completition of the filming of 'LeMans' to Herbert Müller Racing in Dec 1970 (the new owner became the Kistler-Zingg AG). The car was converted to M in 1971. At an Interseries race the car was destroyed, and the remains were bought by Müller to be used as spare parts. As per H Müller in 1977: The frame was scrapped.
    N°1016 was also part of the Solar Production cars sold to Herbert Müller Racing Dec 1970 (the new owner of this car became Heiner Wiesendanger). Sold in the mid seventies to the US and converted there to Spyder.
    N°1024 was another car part of the sale to Herbert Müller Racing in Dec 1970. This was the car which had been used as a donor to convert a Lola T70 MK II into a Ferrari look-a-like to be crashed by remote control. This is most likely the one your french mechanic referred to. The remains of the original lower chassis (without roof structure) and some body parts also were sold to Herbert Müller Racing as part of the total package. Müller sold the frame and some parts 5 years later. The car has been resurrected long ago. The duplication of numbers was always a problem and in 1980 it was assumed that this car was 1012. Ferrari wrote in 2002: 'The car we had sold to Swaters as 1024 was in reality N°1004. Apparently we made a mistake.....'
    N°1026 was destroyed during the filming and became the property of the insurance company. Ferrari also listed this car as 'distrutta'. I have the correspondence on the insurance issues, and the car ended up at a wrecking yard. Müller did not buy this one. The history from the wrecking yard on and resurrection is well known and documented. Müller sold some parts to assist the restoration for this one in 1979.
    N°1036 was sold to Herbert Müller Racing Dec 1970 also by Solar Productions (the new owner of this car became Herbert Müller). Müller converted it to a M Spyder for use in the 1974 CanAm and the 1975 Interseries. In January of 1977 Müller sold this on on to the current owner. In 1978 this car was converted back to a Berlinetta.
    N°1044 was the last car in this package sold to Herbert Müller Racing Dec 1970 (the new owners of this car became Herbert Müller and Rene Herzog). In 1971 converted to M. Very extensive racing history. In 1972 a severe accident at an Interseries race at the Nürburgring. The frame / chassis was repaired at the time (I have a written statement from the ex chief mechanic!) and NOT replaced as some believed.
    Hope this helps a bit.
     
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  17. fazzaz 512

    fazzaz 512 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2004
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    #192 fazzaz 512, Feb 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  18. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    This is really an interesting thread and I think it's also cleared up another mystery, Modulo which I think is the missing 0864. This touches on another mystery, as to which chassis was used as the Can Am Mule that was built in 68. Modulo's chassis is a cross between a 312P and 512S and it's "engine" which doesn't have internals I believe is 6 liter. It's interesting to note that P5's "engine" doesn't have internals, at least not originally nor does the Sigma F1 PF's "engine". Dino Competizione was a fully operating car originally which is also interesting based on 034 now stamped 10523. This confusion at one time surrounded 0846 which, until Karl Ludvigsen proved beyond the shadow of any doubt was not used as P5's chassis, was thought by some to have been. I also think some thought 0846's chassis was used as the Can Am Mule in 68 "Destroyed in Mugello" but Ferrari records definitely show that that is not true and that 0846's chassis was scrapped by Ferrari and not used as the Can AM Mule. The Mystery of the Can Am Mule's chassis 0864 lies beneath Modulo.
     
  19. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    Manfred: thank you for that: very interesting, it does clarify the picture.
     
  20. fazzaz 512

    fazzaz 512 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2004
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    Difficult to prove with documentation, but I am of the same opinion.
     
  21. Stephan2738

    Stephan2738 Rookie

    Aug 27, 2007
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    Mr. Lampe,

    There are many books about the subject of the Ferrari 512S and 512M. But there is also a lot of new information found since these books came out! Wouldn't it be a great idea to make a new:
    "Ferrari 512S and 512M - the chassisnumbers". book? Not about the history of these cars in general but more specific about every individual chassis ever made?

    Kind regards,

    Stephan
     
  22. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Then please, before there are two new books on 512 S/M, contact Nathan Beehl.
     
  23. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    about the frame on the photos of Labro's site: I do not know which number it has and if it is a new made chassis by Labro or an original old chassis or made in the UK (as Manfred speaks of) in the 80s or so. (I did not see the chassis myself and do not know who the owner is)
    My photo of 1010 has nothing to do with the photos of the chassis at Labro.

    Manfred are you going to publish a book on the 512s?
     
  24. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    Does anybody know what happened to the 512S long tail rear body section that used to be hung on a wall at the Charles Pozzi Ferri France headquarters in Levallois near Paris?
     
  25. Stephan2738

    Stephan2738 Rookie

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    #200 Stephan2738, Feb 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I think it went on this car:

    And i'm pretty sure the posted pictures are of that car.

    These are not my pictures, i got these of the internet some years ago and do not know who owns the copyright!
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