| Author | Message | ||
| Mike Dawson (Miked)
Junior Member Username: Miked Post Number: 83 Registered: 2-2001 |
While surfing the web for a non-Ferrari item I ran across a web site for a company that specializes in Renault and Alfa ignition work. They claim to work on Marelli distributors and offer a distributor machine testing service. I think that they are in Vancouver, BC so perhaps one of our Chatters in the area could check them out. http://www3.telus.net/lusa/index.html | ||
| Chris F. (Chrisfromri)
New member Username: Chrisfromri Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2003 |
JRV, Thank you very much for your expert advice here! That's one less thing for me to wonder about. BTW, it ran fine yesterday for my 165 mile jaunt to participate in an FCA NE event! Kind Regards, Chris | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1150 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>whether the Marelli Digiplex electronic ignition in my car does this electronically -- without mechanical means><< It's done electronicly & by the vacum pot on the Digiplexs. | ||
| Chris F. (Chrisfromri)
New member Username: Chrisfromri Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2003 |
Can anyone confirm whether my stock '84 308 GTB QV uses the mechanical timing weights and springs to generate its timing advance curve, or whether the Marelli Digiplex electronic ignition in my car does this electronically -- without mechanical means? Thanks, and Kind Regards, Chris | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Junior Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 178 Registered: 7-2002 |
Matt Interesting thoughts. The bigger issue, I think, is the shape of the optimal advance curve rather than replicating the factory advance curve, which I believe was limited by the available technology. Specifically, I can believe the 34 degrees BTDC at 5000 is close to optimal given that's what Ferrari determined (and I assume tuned at length on an engine dyno). However, from off idle (IIRC) to 6000 rpm (again, if I recall the "curves" correctly) is a linear relationship based on rpm. My guess is this is more to do with the capabilities of mechanical advance mechanisms than optimal tuning, which may suggest a different shaped (and non-linear) curve. Electromotive's "standard" HPX curve (the "one size fits all" starting point they suggest) is for a fairly rapid climb in advance (to about 30 degrees at 3000 rpm as I recall) and then flat through peak power. One hopefully useful illustration. I have infront of me the results of some testing done on the Miata by the Mazda development engineers. (The B6 engine was a 4 pot, 4 valves per cylinder, twin cam producing about 85 bhp/liter in its later forms. Peak torque was 4000 rpm, peak power at 7000 rpm, as far as I recall). Anyway, the stock timing curve is fairly linear from close to 0 degrees advance at 1000 rpm to 26 degrees BTDC at 4500/5000 rpm (after peak torque of 4000 rpm) when it flattens out to redline/fuel cut at 7200. When put on an engine dyno, the engineers played with ignition advance to produce optimal power at each rpm point. The "peak power" ignition curve looks very different. In this ignition curve, a lot of timing is added through 1800 rpm (to about 18 degrees versus 7 stock) when it is approximately flat until 2500 before adding in another 5 degrees of advance to 3000 (now totalling 23 degrees versus 15 stock). Timing is actually reduced through peak torque (back to about 18 degrees - detonation threshold) and then advance is added back to a maximum of 27 degrees BTDC at 4500 rpm. In sum, the general shape is (i) non-linear, (ii) has more timing lower down in the RPM range than a straight line to peak torque, and (iii), (stretching abit), if there is a knee in the timing curve, it is around 3000 rpm. Shows the benefits of "tunable" ignition curves and break points/points where the curve changes slope. It is obviously a wild stretch to apply this to a 308 engine, but, "treading out on the ice", having a knee in the timing curve below peak torque so that more advance is present below peak torque than a linear device would suggest may well be beneficial. | ||
| Erik R. K. Jonsson (Gamester)
Member Username: Gamester Post Number: 292 Registered: 11-2000 |
The HPV is encased in resin, and the pots have a closed cell foam lining in an aluminum cover for keeping the pots dry and safe, also keeps them from moving. | ||
| matt (Matthewmag)
New member Username: Matthewmag Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bill - sounds good, I'm going to open the gaps up a bit as well but perhaps not quite as much with the Marelli electronic ignition. Philip, your comment about the "advance until it pings and then back off one or 2 degrees" school of set up is very true in my experience, apart from the area around full power, there's more to setting up ignition than that. From Bill's reports of using the HPV (is that the same or similar to your HPX ?), the advance curve he posted in the "carb rejet and rebuild" thread, is useful stuff. Just a thought though - if you really wanted to get closer to the standard curve shape with such a system, I'll bet it's not so tough........ I'm really guessing here because I don't know the system BUT..... (thinking out loud, so skip to the end to avoid headache) If it's adjustable with pots, that would indicate to me that the circuitry is pretty simple - i.e. the advance "curve" itself is not contained within an IC....... instead, and I emphasise that I'm guessing, the break points are pre-defined by a simple pulse counter and the values at each point on the curve defined by measuring the output voltage of very simple analogue circuit (it's adjustable with the pots) which (along with the initial input pulse) is fed into a time delay circuit (which uses voltage to set the time delay), and is then passed on to the amplifier to give the output pulse to the coil... if this is so, then changing that 3000rpm break point to 5500 (or whatever you fancy) could be a very simple case of changing a couple of components coming from the pulse counter(most likely a resistor and a capacitor) which will tune the break point..... Like I say, that's a real guess, but if you've got a circuit diagram and an oscilloscope - or better still, an undergraduate electronics engineering student....... Well, if you've got a circuit diagram, you could post it but there's no guarantee I'd be able to help. It could of course work quite differently from how I'm guessing. And then again if it's designed to go in the engine bay, it should be encased in resin so all of the above will be completely useless even if by chance it's right...... | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 429 Registered: 5-2001 |
Matt, The plugs I'm using are Champion RN9YC gapped at 0.032 inches. I got two, new sets on ebay for about $10 with intention of using them for the initial tuning and trouble shooting of my 2V engine. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3234 Registered: 2-2001 |
I have to check what exactly I have as it is at home, but I remember looking at some of the 308 charts floating around. If I can't get quite a bit of info off the 355s then I'm probably going to work off of tec3 auto setup. This would be excellent if we pooled info. When I I get the chance I will be doing quite a bit of dyno work so at least then I should be able to get some solid curves to start off with in the future. The 2v cars are quite a bit different, but 4v's should at least follow the basic setup of the 348s at least, 355s are starting to get a little too different IMO. In time we should get some solid info going on this stuff. The ignition on the 308 is the single worst part of the engine IMO, right next to the fuel injection system. | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Junior Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 164 Registered: 7-2002 |
This is a useful discussion, and, as another HPX owner, I'd appreciate whatever guidance is available based on dyno plots etc. My default, like others is to get as close to the factory curve at peak torque/peak HP. As a (slight) aside, I spent a fair amount of effort with a group of others dialing in fully programmable ignition timing on Mazdas (turbo and NA). The "advance until it pings and then back off one or 2 degrees" school of set up was close to optimal at high boost/high rpm, but far from optimal elsewhere. If anybody does originate dyno plots based on ignition (and map) settings, along with others, I'd love to see. Also, acknowledging the 348/355 engines are vastly different from the 308, I'd still be interested in seeing the general shape of the curves. Incidentally, for the 4 pot-B6 (Miata) engine, the optimal ignition curve (as measured on an engine dyno) was to advance the ignition to 26 - 27 degrees at peak torque (about 4500 rpm) and then have it about flat to redline. | ||
| matt (Matthewmag)
New member Username: Matthewmag Post Number: 23 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bill, Making your head hurt? err, mine too. Ouch. As you point out, there's no point in having a fully mapped system if you can't spend all the time and money it takes to set it up properly. That's one of the biggest constraints of these things. The tec3 does sound good though. Powerful spark output too, what plugs and gap do you currently use? The 308 2V combustion chamber is not very efficient so if you have a powerful enough ignition, a big plug gap is going to help a great deal IMO. Brett, sounds like your're pretty far from stock with your engine. What 308 info do you have? Do you have any of the map information from the digiplex ignition cars? And you're right about requiring a fair bit of dyno time. Because of that it's got to be far better on an engine dyno than a rolling road but sometimes one doesn't have the choice. Having a knock sensor is interesting. From your description it sounds like it will be open rather than closed loop. I haven't really followed how manufacturers are using knock sensors these days, but when Lancia used knock sensors on the Group A Integrale, they were among the first to use a very sensitive knock sensor for closed loop boost pressure control. If you bought an early group A ECU from Abarth, it ran open loop so that when things got hot, customers engines started melting pistons....... the works cars didn't suffer this problem. Just a useless piece of trivia I find amusing. I'll stop before causing more headaches and getting this thread further from the points and rotors it started off with.......... | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3233 Registered: 2-2001 |
I have some of the 308 info, but I'm gonna try and get my hands on some 355 info when I the time comes. The tec3 does a basic fuel and ignition curve automatically based on estimates you program in (approximate hp, fuel, engine size, etc.). So I will work off of this most likely. I'm also installing a knock sensor so according to electromotive you basically advance until knock and then immediately retard a few degrees. I think best would be to get all the info I can on the 355 though since it runs similar comp, etc. Granted it will have to be changed a bit, but would be a great starting point IMO. I get the impression a good deal of dyno time is involved. What I would really like to find out is how Ferrari handles fuel injection nowadays, pulse width offset, etc. With the ignition though I think one could just do some runs on Sunday mornings to see what works well and what doesn't. It would be nice to get a base going on what kind of curves people are running since it seems more and more popular to run across 308s with electronic ignitions nowadays. That's one of the pain in the ass things with Ferrari, if you were setting up a Mustang or Corvette you could get every curve Ford or GM ever used. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 424 Registered: 5-2001 |
Matt, That was a hell of a discussion. You're making my head hurt. I agree with you that a programmable, multiple break point system is potentially a much better solution, provided you took the time to discover or knew what the optimum advance curve should be. MAP input would be an additional refinement. I think BretM has the right idea with the TEC3 system, but you need a computer, cable, and software to program it. Anybody know what the optimum advance curve should look like? When I asked around, nobody was volunteering this information. One would have to carry out a development effort. The HPV-1 system is a lot simpler to setup and a lot less expensive then the TEC3 system, but still not cheap and not particularly easy to install. Someday down the road I may elect to go with a TEC3 if I can figure out what this optimized advance curve should be. I already have the correct trigger wheel and pickup installed. The factory advance curves on my carbed 308 may have been the best compromise the factory could come up with in 1977-78 time frame to meet emissions and fuel requirements, performance, and durability issues, but I suspect significant compromises were made. The reason I put in the HPV-1 system was because the advance mechanisms in my distributots were worn and corroded. It�s not easy finding someone with a selection of advance springs and a distributor machine to set up the curves in today�s world. Two distributors, with 2-point sets each, two switching circuits (R1, R2), and lots of mechanical movement (not only in the advance mechanisms themselves but also in the drive train between the crank-to-cams-to-distributors drive train) require a lot of things to work well together. IMHO, the HPV-1 is a very good system when compared to most alternatives. In addition to previous points, the HPV-1 eliminates a lot of slop because it is crank driven and as BretM pointed out, it can optionally use manifold vacuum as an input signal. BretM, How are you going to arrive at your advance curves? | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3231 Registered: 2-2001 |
The tec3 and hpv1 are separate systems, from what I understand they use the same coils but different systems to drive them. The hpv1 has a small ECU almost like whereas the tec3 has a normal ECU since it controls both fuel and ignition. The plug gaps are outlined in a chart in the setup manual for the tec3 so I will be pretty much sticking with them, the curves though will be interesting. I would say all said and done the tec3 will probably run around $3500. I'll be doing quite a bit of dyno work I suspect. The tec3 is pretty cool, it's so variable it's almost ridiculous. You can download the software at www.getfuelinjected.com to see what types of stuff one could change around. I thought the HPV1 was essentially the ignition part of the tec3 (not a very big part of the ECU is devoted to ignition compared to the fuel, sensors, etc. so it would seem to fit in the small ECU on the HPV1). If the hpv1 is what I think it is then it would seem to be an excellent system and relatively easy to setup. Hopefully Bill can shed some light for us. | ||
| matt (Matthewmag)
New member Username: Matthewmag Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bret, That would make a lot of sense. As you can tell I don't know a lot about the electromotive products.... Is the tec3 used in conjunction with the HPV-1 / does the HPV-1 come as part of the tec3 kit? How is it programmed? I'd be very interested to see what ignition curve you arrive at. Please post it when you're done. If you're setting it up on a dyno, are you going to try a range of plug gaps and plugs? How much do you think the whole conversion will cost? | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3227 Registered: 2-2001 |
I don't have experience with the HPV-1, but the tec3 (electromotive) I'm setting up has 256 data points for the ignition curve. It breaks ignition advance based on 16 steps of rpm and 16 steps of MAP sensor readings. This will allow for an extremely flexible curve. I was under the assumption that the HPV-1 was essentially just the ignition part of the tec3 when setup with the MAP sensor? Maybe you guys can shed some light. Also, very few other ignitions are as powerful as the electromotive stuff. You are limited by the plugs, but you can run different gaps with a lot of punch. | ||
| matt (Matthewmag)
New member Username: Matthewmag Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bill, Interesting - I agree with a lot of what you say but...... True, the timing ought to be rock steady from a dynamic point of view and both banks will always be 100% synchronised - very important. And your points about it being easy to tune and set up are totally valid, I'm sure. (Also, what I said about having small pots in the engine bay is also conjecture of course but dirty pots in a home stereo for example are a very common problem - and they are subjected to a far less severe environment from a dirt and heat point-of-view.) So while I agree that those points are potential improvements over standard, the reasons I said I think it's not an advantage are as follows. You can't get the right shape curve - by this I mean that you are restricted, as you point out, to an advance curve whose last point of inflection is at 3000rpm. i.e. after 3000 advance either stays the same, continually increases or continually decreases. Whichever of the factory advance curves you choose to look at, the last point of inflection is around 6000rpm which reflects the relatively high point at which peak torque is developed on the stock 308 engine. Now with a true mapped system, even if it's only a 2D system, the optimum advance curve might look a bit different but it will theoretically have the same basic shape characteristics as the mechanical advance. Sure, it will be more jagged, and I can't say what the requirements will really be (having a look at the 3D ignition map in an injected 308 car would give a good clue though - Anyone?) but the shape will be similar reflecting the requirements when or around the point where the combustion chamber is being filled most completely, the pre-combustion pressuse is highest and the time from ignition to complete combustion is at its shortest (i.e. peak torque). After this point the advance curve will change reflecting the increase in engine speed on the one hand (need more advance) and the slower combustion rate on the other (need less advance)........... My guess is that the after around 5000-5500 the ideal ignition requirement for the 308 engine would be increasing advance over the next 1000 or so rpm but at a significantly slower rate. I think that the stock advance curves represent this and were the best compromise 2 inflection point advance curves that the factory could find after dyno testing. So, having said all that, your advance curve could be as good a compromise as the factory setup. Comparing the two as in your graph in the other thread bears this theory out to some degree (well sort of..... if this is right, your curve may be more optimised from 5000 to 7000 but less so at lower rpm - and even though you may not be experiencing any knocking at lower rpm where your curve is probably over advanced from optimum, emissions of NOx and HC will be significantly higher - and this is a compromise you probably have to worry about less than the factory did). But it is a pretty big compromise. In my experience on other engines, the really big gains come from a fully mapped setup with break points every 250rpm or a lot of adjustable break points across the rpm range. And then again, having a 3D setup is even better. In fact, when it comes to driveability, my opinion is that having the latter kind of setup will provide most of the gains in low end driveability that you would get with a really good fully mapped injection and inition setup. So, the HPV-1 is something you fit, adjust, occassionally tune, and that's it. What interests me is a system that is optimised over the entire RPM range and I'll get one for my 308 some day.......... But then again the compromise that the HPV-1 wins out on is probably cost which does mean you're more likely to have it on the car........ Another case of apples and oranges I suppose. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 422 Registered: 5-2001 |
Matt, I just wanted to say while one can't duplicate the Ferrari advance curve with the HPV-1 ignition system, the curve I am running may be superior and is rock steady from a dynamic point of view. The curve I show in my post generally provides a lot more advance in the mid range than the Ferrari curve and about the same at the top end. Under high load, in the mid rpm band, there is no tendancy to knock, so I could potentially advance the curve more. Remember, the advance is all electronic so it is rock steady, no mechanical stickiness or instability due to friction and wear. Over time, it may drift somewhat, but a timing light and tach ought to make it easy to dial back in. Also, there is only one advance curve for both banks so there is never a question of synchronizing the characteristics of one distributor with another. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1053 Registered: 11-2002 |
All kinds of running issues can be traced back to distrib advance malfunction...lack of power, lack of fast strong smooth acceleration to redline, mid-range sputtering and breaking up, poor idle. To check advance all you need is a timing lite and all your Flywheel Marks painted for ease of viewing, check Timing at idle..it should be at rest for your engine config.. 3atdc to 10btdc...then accelerate engine slowly to 4500rpms ...timing should advance to 34-36btdc then let off gas...timing should snap back to rest position for your set-up...then check the second distrib the same way...when correct both distribs work exactly the same at all rpm ranges and advance and return very smoothly. If they don't the engine won't run powerfull and smooth and have a nice smooth idle. After the distribs are working correctly you'll then be able to dial the carbs in to 2.5%-3%CO 900rpm nice smooth idle. | ||
| Barney Guzzo (Trinacria)
Junior Member Username: Trinacria Post Number: 140 Registered: 8-2002 |
JRV What would indicate that a problem exists with the advance? | ||
| matt (Matthewmag)
New member Username: Matthewmag Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2002 |
Tommy, Well, there are sure to be others here that have more experience using the direct fire systems on a v8. The Jaguar is a straight 6 and is far from finished but for that, I will be using an ECU from either Motec or Haltech with mainly Bosch components. It is not a cheap way of going about it but I couldn't find anything else I liked. I'll finish it someday......... For the 308 the options are easier as you can use two 4-cylinder direct fire ECUs. This might not seem like it, but from the systems I've looked at, it will be the most cost effective. Personally I'd use two OMEM100 from Omex (see the link in my last post, prices and specs are there too - I've got nothing to do with Omex by the way!). It's 3-D (so you can fit a throttle pot if you want), fully programmable using excellent software and has plenty of break points. You could also use the Weber system http://www.webcon.co.uk/alpha/alpha_ignition.htm - it costs more to do the same thing and, from memory, it doesn't come with the software. For both systems you'd have to buy 2 crank sensors, coils, wiring harnesses and mount the timing disc on the crank pulley. I'm not including the stuff from http://www.electromotive-inc.com here because it's not a mappable system and, as you can see from the data Bill gave in http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/206354.html?1046663163 you can't even recreate the standard advance curve, let alone improve on it, so I can't see it being an advantage over the standard setup. It also has pots whose resistance can change over time (and I wonder how they change with engine bay temperature) so IMO it needs to be tuned or at least checked just as often as the standard setup. There's sure to be someone who has more information on this though......... | ||
| Tommy Anastasiou (Tommya)
New member Username: Tommya Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2002 |
Matt, Can you post some details on your ignition system ?? Direct fire separate coils sounds very interesting. Thanks in advance. | ||
| matt (Matthewmag)
New member Username: Matthewmag Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bruno, I don't know of an off-the-shelf system that does what you want but there's some programmable systems that you can set up where you don't use the centrifugal advance but still retain the distributor. I looked into doing this on a Jaguar a few years ago and was considering using Omex ignition at the time. OMEM150 ?http://www.omextechnology.co.uk/page3.html It looks like it would work on a 308. You would have to hide the small programmable box somewhere, but that's not difficult. This exact set-up was being used as a "cheat" on 2 E-type race cars where programmable ignition wasn't allowed. I didn't do this conversion in the end becuase it was going to be easier to go with a direct-fire type of system with separate coils. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 419 Registered: 5-2001 |
So the Pertronix system utilizes the Ferrari mechanical advance system. Still, using the advance mechanism in one distributor, for all timing functions, is superior to using the advance mechanisms in two distributors. One doesn't have to worry about matching the advance curves when only one advance mechanism is used. | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Member Username: Steve Post Number: 319 Registered: 2-2001 |
Sorry but no pic's . Also there are no schematics because the system is quite simple. There are 2 pieces to the unit. The 1st piece is a plastic magnetic unit. It is about 2" in dia and is machined to fit over the dist cam under the rotor.It has 4 magnets molded in it.This is a standard pertronixs part that is modified to fit over the ferrari dist. cam. The Hall effect pick up is mounted where the points used to mount . In this case you mount the 1st unit to hit #1 cyl and mount the 2nd unit 45 degrees away. Each pick up unit has 2 wires , red (+12v) and black which goes to the coil. 1 unit goes to 1 coil and the 2nd unit goes to the other coil. You use the advance weights in this dist. to run the whole show. He goes through the dist. and verifies the advance curve. In fact I left the points in the other dist. but just don't have them wired in. Also the tach works without any mod's and you only time PM1-4 because the 2nd pick up is 45 deg. off set so it is timed by default. You can leave the stock coils and wiring and the system will work but i went wit a full 12v coil without the step down resistor so I had to jumper the "start " and " run " wires. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 417 Registered: 5-2001 |
Does the Pertronix system rely upon the mechanical advance mecnanism? | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Intermediate Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 1004 Registered: 5-2002 |
Steve, U got any pics or paperwork (schematics) on your setup? I am big on the original look. | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Member Username: Steve Post Number: 318 Registered: 2-2001 |
Erik give this guy a call before you go to pertronix's. His name is Don King and his shop is Elite Motors in Ca. His # is 310 606-5695. He's a down home type of guy and he sets up the whole distributor for you. He did the twin pertronix's in only 1 dist. for me but if you want to get a single unit in each dist. he may do that for you but he prefers the 1 dist. set up. You can use stock coils if you want but I've gone to 40,000 volt units . Give him a call and chat , it only cost you the call. Tell him Steve from NY told you to call. | ||
| Erik R. K. Jonsson (Gamester)
Member Username: Gamester Post Number: 281 Registered: 11-2000 |
I looked into the Pertronix and they recently told me to send in the distributor as they didn't have a ready made system for the 308. I'd like to install one of their systems, as they are ultra simple and fully reliable(plus look stock in comparison to Crane). I have used them in a number of vehicles and an IR gas air compressor with 100% success. I'd like to know the Pertronix part numbers and see a photo of your setup Steve. Thanks Erik | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 416 Registered: 5-2001 |
Bruno, I don't know of anyone who makes a system as you describe. I believe electronic systems that will fit inside your distributor, require the distributor's mechanical advance mechanism. Those that don't, require external electrics. Electromotive can supply a trigger wheel and pickup that will fit inside some distributors and eliminate the need for the mechanical distributor advance, but it requires an external box. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 996 Registered: 5-2002 |
Been following thread. Agree with distributopr machine (or clever bench set up) needed. However I am thining when I do mine. (SOON) I want to eliminate the entire mechanism,advance and all. I want the distributors left on for looks but cant see using them for anything more than spark distribution. Now who makes a system like that? | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Member Username: Steve Post Number: 311 Registered: 2-2001 |
Hans I've been running this for the last year and it appears to be great. The guy who does this has been doing this type of modification for a while and has a Ferrari shop in Cal.He sends a "set up" cap for the 2nd dist and rechecks the advance curve. Everything runs off of the 1st dist.so it triggers each coil . No problems all the way up to 7500 rpms. I wanted a simple set up with no visible alteration to the system . | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 925 Registered: 4-2002 |
Steve: Not sure about this, but I *think* putting both triggers in one dist could lead to problems if the advance curves in both distributors aren't in full "sync". If one distributor advances a little differently than the other, you could end up firing the wrong cylinder. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1032 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>True they don't solve the problem<< most people believe changing to a different type of on/off switch, WILL solve their problem...perhaps that's why there's tons of threads on jettisoning points and ZERO threads on "Checking Distrib Advance Operation". BTW: points should last far longer than 5K-8K miles. They sure used to before gizmo's came along. Don't get me wrong, some gizmo's live up to their claims, but many don't. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2547 Registered: 12-2000 |
JRV, we all appreciate your advice on advance-system checking and tuning. This should be done on a regular basis. With respect to the electronic ignition, its merely to make the car more reliable and consistant. Even with brand new condensors and a perfect contact with the points' tungsten tips, they don't last very long and performance suffers too. True they don't solve the problem, but at least they last longer than 5K mi... | ||
| Sean F (Agracer)
New member Username: Agracer Post Number: 26 Registered: 2-2003 |
Don, I believe that Williams Engines in KC sells Taylor wires. He also has all the parts you need to cut them, and make them any length you want. I did this several times on my FF car and it was easy. Call and ask for Charlie. Tell him what you are trying to do and I'm sure he can help you out. He can get any color or size wire you need. He used to build my race engines. 913-262-2300 Are you going to the meeting on Saturday? | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Member Username: Steve Post Number: 310 Registered: 2-2001 |
Matt , yes on use the front dist. with 2 pick up units mounted inside and at 45 degrees and the 4 cyl wheel mounted under the stock rotor. You still need the 2nd dist. but only to distribute the spark. You set the timing with 1 distributor.Simple set up. Pertronix's was not doing 308 conversions at the time but if you see what was said they install the pick ups in each dist. and then you set the timing just like it had points. This works well and has no external hardware . The Hall effect is based on a magnetic field which picks a semiconductor device in the pick up unit. Simple. | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
New member Username: Djparks Post Number: 27 Registered: 2-2003 |
Dandy Don, In answer to your question on replacement spark wires and the risk of agitating the purists out there I went with Taylor 8mm, high temp, slicon spiral core, RED, with low profile 90 degree boots. The 90 degree boots come installed and with a little dielectric on the outer sleeve I was able to slide the 'raw' end into the cap without shaving the insulation off. I used these with a set of new OEM style 'plug well' boots from Sodacoms. The boots are black so the look isn't exactly like the 500.00 wire sets I've seen out there but the performance is the same. I am fortunate to have new plug extenders too so it's pretty much covered. The wire set is the 'Universal' kit and can be found in the Summit catalogue for about 65.00 as well as some nice looking RED 'smoothy' wire separators for 15.00. The whole set up cost about 130.00. Hope this works for you, DJ | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1024 Registered: 11-2002 |
You can clean all you want, however, without a distrib machine you can't check and verify the accuracy of the advance curve, or how well they return to rest. Which was exactly my point, folks want to cheat the game with triggers, the problem is rarely if ever the triggers, it's the 'advance mechanisms' that must be checked on a Distrib Machine, because the problems can easily and most often is far from just dirt or lack of grease. The spings wear out, the pins develop slop, the shims need to be changed as neccesary, etc. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2544 Registered: 12-2000 |
The beauty with the current XR700's is they use LED lights on the boxes to signal the triggering point. Simply a matter lining up the rotor with the #1 mark on the distributor body and rotating the Infra red trigger to "light" up when they start to pass by the opening. As for the weights, disassemble the whole unit and clean and lube the parts individually. This takes time, but is alot neater.  | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1022 Registered: 11-2002 |
Don, the distrib curves have to be checked by a Distrib Machine to verify condition and accuracy of advance and return. Once checked, any neccesary corrective measures are taken. The crane windows also need to be set to the correct alignment and orientation on a machine to achieve quality results. Both Distribs have to be setup exactly the same to insure quality tuning on reinstalation is possible. Additionaly you'll need new Distrib. shaft o-rings and unless they are new, I take the oppurtunity to replace the distrib seals and gaskits. The wires are checked by use of an OHM Meter checking for resistance while flexing the wire, any erratic measurements means the wire is NG and will need to be replaced. | ||
| Don McCormick (Dandy_don)
Junior Member Username: Dandy_don Post Number: 54 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hans,JRV, and Peter GT4, As I will be pulling the distributors this weekend to install the Crane XR 700's I suppose I should go into the advance mechanisms and clean and relube them. Do I need to disassemble the advance mechanism itself into its component pieces or is it enough to thoroughly clean in solvent and then relube with a suitable grease? (which would be what type of grease???) Two questions there actually. Last weekend I had one distrib out and separated the advance mechanism from the distrib but did not go any further as it looked a bit intricate and I was pressed for time. Also, any thoughts about replacement spark plug wire sources as mine are a bit old. Mine is a 79 308 with 21,000 miles and stock distributors (although not for long) Thanx in advance for advice. Don | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2476 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hans, Are you referring to the Crane x700? | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 923 Registered: 4-2002 |
My mechanic echoed what JRV is saying. The advance weights work well, but often cars converted to electronic ignition will not have these weights serviced on a regular basis. Last August, my mechanic pulled the distributors, serviced the advance mechanism, and check the advance curve on his distributor machine. *IF* the advance mechanism gets a little preventative maintance, it's reasonably trouble free. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 922 Registered: 4-2002 |
An advantage (at least in my opinion) to the Crane system is that it doesn't monkey with the stock ignition advance system. All of the innards (except the points) stays stock. As far as difficulty/wires, there is just a cable containing 3 wires leaving the distributor thru the same hole that the wire for the points currently goes thru. You will need some power for the boxes, tho. Not real difficult, really. And it's a system that is very widely used on 308 motors. Dave Handa had one on his now deceased 79 308. My plugs are now almost 10,000 miles old, and I can't detect any miss at all. Still, they probably need to be changed. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1021 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes Matt small world. The single biggest problem with the carbed 308's (and other Ferrari lay down Distribs) is the flywieghts become messed up, sloppy and non-functioning. The second smaller problem is points eventualy wear out. A 308 (or any car for that matter) will not run right unless the advance Mechanisms work correctly. I haven't seen a correctly working distrib in years. Once the advance Mech. are set on the distrib machine and new points installed and speced on the machine, the engine will start instanly and rev freely to redline, smooth as silk. Setting Both Distribs on a Machine and installing back on the engine and setting the timing exactly the same on both banks is the most common problem I see with the carb cars, BB's have the same distrib issues also. No amount of hocus pocus will compesate for a distrib that doesn't advance & return properly. Don Rudd is a good friend of mine, he'll treat you right. I've know his Dad for 25 years. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2473 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thanks Don, DJ, JRV, Steve, and Hans  | ||
| Don McCormick (Dandy_don)
Junior Member Username: Dandy_don Post Number: 53 Registered: 2-2002 |
Matt, I just bought the Crane stuff Monday evening and plan to install this weekend. Hans is correct, there are two electrical "boxes" that I will need to hide which are external to the distributors. The optical pickups will reside in the distributors after I remove the R1 and R2 points, which I ideally would like to try and avoid but will probably have to remove them. Another other system available, which totally fits in the distributor without the external electrical boxes, is made by Pertronix and uses the "Hall" effect (whatever that is-something magnetic with fields etc) to perform the points function. Only one additional wire exits the distributor. I called Pertronix and they told me that it would cost about $5-600 to retrofit my 308 (2 distributors) and that I would need to ship them both distributors and wait 8 weeks for them to retrofit them. (Large backlog in winter). Since I will be driving the - - - - out of the car in 2 months with the return of warm weather and the 2 Crane XR-700 and two new coils cost only about $260 direct from Crane, I thought I would try them first and see if I liked them. There may well be another vendor who makes a self contained (in the distributor) points replacement product suitable for the 308 but I could not find them with a Web search nor could I find a reference on this website after a 20 minute search. I will let you know how it turns out this weekend. Don | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2472 Registered: 8-2002 |
Steve, Did I read that right, You only did one dist? | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
New member Username: Djparks Post Number: 24 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hey Matt, My 78 308 has the Crane set up with the two external boxes and stock coils. I love it. If you don't like the extra boxes go to the Mallory web site.I saw a Mallory conversion kit that would install the optical trigger and related parts in place of your points with no exteral box. It was a while ago but they still might have something. Not sure if they have something for a Ferrari but if Crane can do it I'm sure Mallory can. DJ | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2471 Registered: 8-2002 |
JRV I am going there on March the 6th for the 1:30 tour with Martin Weiner and Jason Fraser!!!! I will search him out....Small World! | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Member Username: Steve Post Number: 309 Registered: 2-2001 |
Matt I had installed 2 Pertronix's breakerless ing. systems in 1 of my distributors. This replaced the point setup . I time the car with the rear(rear of car) dist. and use stock coils. No external boxes only needed to jumber out the starting resistor but that was simple. System is neat and clean and looks stock.I had it done by a guy in cal. for around $500. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1019 Registered: 11-2002 |
send your Distribs to a good friend of mine, Don Rudd, he runs the Nethercut Collection. He instals points, con., and sets them up on a Factory Distrib Machine....not very expensive and very sweet when finished. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2469 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hans, If you remember my car, I have the original stock coils and such. Is the Crane/alyson just the stuff in the dist cap? or is there more wire to run? I was just looking for the stuff inside if that is possible. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 921 Registered: 4-2002 |
Matt: The Crane/Alyson setup replaces the points with an optical pickup. You also have an electrical 'box'. Or two if you have dual distributors. With the Crane setup, reverting back to original is simple, if need be. I also saw advertised an 'all-in-one' electrical pickup that had the pickup and the electronics in a single unit that fit in the distributor. Just run a wire to your coil and you're done. Unfortunately, I don't remember the name of the product. After a couple of beers tonight, I'm sure it will come to me. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2466 Registered: 8-2002 |
I know this has been done to death and I have checked the archives but.... Is it possible to keep the original equipment but just replace the points and rotors? If so, who makes it. All the archives refer to replacing the whole lot. |