| Author | Message | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 809 Registered: 5-2002 |
"...design that is the intellectual property of Durable 1. I have a letter of recognition of that from Electromotive. " Hmm, I pretty sure that unless the letter says US patent office, anyone can make and sell it.... Anyway I personally think you are better off with a machined and bolted piece because once you install and set it, it will never ever require adjustment. Clamp on pieces tend to slip. Also I would not recommend bolting or clamping anything to the OD of the balencer because it changes the frequency of the balancer so it's no longer doing what the factory intended. It's also rubber mounted so the timing will bounce around to some extent. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 674 Registered: 3-2001 |
Nick still sells the product and is a sponsor of this site, in fact the longest running sponsor of this site. Mr. Morgan has no business making such statements on FC and is not even a sponsor of FC. Mr. Morgan continues to forget how he destroyed two 308 QV heads in his shop and took $5000 to do do it, which he kept. Support FC Sponsors not want to be's! | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 595 Registered: 10-2002 |
Thanks, Matt, very much for the information. It's appreciated. --Mike | ||
| Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member Username: Kermit Post Number: 166 Registered: 8-2001 |
There are no advantages, Mike. In both applications you get to the same results. Period. The disadvantages of machined types are higher cost, and irreversability. Both run true if installed correctly. I'm sure that the machined version must have some adjustability, as does the clamp on. This can be a great advantage when setting the curve, as I have seen times when the Electromotive is out of room to dial in more advance when set on the trailing edge of the 11th tooth, so resetting it to the 12th allows you to "fool the box" and you can then reset more advance as needed. This is really handy when dynoing the curve for optimum power and driveability | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 593 Registered: 10-2002 |
What are the advantages to having a machined balancer approach vs. the clamp on trigger wheel? I like the reversability of the clamp-on trigger wheel, and it seems to be simpler with lower risk. But the machined approach must have some advantage over the clamp-on? | ||
| Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member Username: Kermit Post Number: 165 Registered: 8-2001 |
Mike, as far as I know NFF uses a machined balancer settup, but I could be wrong. Nick used to sell the designs and products produced by this Corporation, however due to differances in business policies and practices, he can no longer market them. The differances between the two methods of attaching the trigger wheel are vast. One requires removal of the balancer, sending it to a machine shop to have them "mated", while the unit I designed simply clamps on the stock balancer. The installation is simpler, and does not change the stock balancer, or require it to be removed. | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 592 Registered: 10-2002 |
So, when Nick sells you his kit, what mechanism does it use for the trigger? Does his rely on machining the balancer? You say the trigger wheel was formerly offered by Nick Forza's Ferrari... Why no longer? Pros/Cons to machining the balancer vs. the external trigger wheel? Thanks Matt... | ||
| Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member Username: Kermit Post Number: 164 Registered: 8-2001 |
For the benifit of those who don't know, the trigger wheel formerly offered thru NFF is still being sold at our site, and is on special at this time, as it is a design that is the intellectual property of Durable 1. I have a letter of recognition of that from Electromotive. This is the same slip on, DYI unit that does not require any machining or changes to the stock balancer, and is ideal for the DYI. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1743 Registered: 4-2002 |
It's buried in the archives somewhere. Brian Keegan (ex-sexchange guy) knows. He's now at Tonkin. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 620 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hans - thanks for the good data about the Alfa rotor part! Any idea on the # anyone? Am trying to get all of this info in one definitive thread. thanks to all rt | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1737 Registered: 4-2002 |
Correction to OEM distributors: Pre-"i" 2V cars with 2 distributors use a rather generic rotor. Moderate price if sourced from Ferrari, but cheap if you specify the Alfa part. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 606 Registered: 2-2003 |
VZ Good question. For reliability, would think it's a wash with the Mallory/Millermon and Electromotive, perhaps with the Mallory a bit ahead cause it's way simpler and proven. Certainly easier to service. Performance wise the Electromotive will have an edge. Both offer flexability, reliability and lower operating costs not found in the Marelli You pays ya money and takes ya choice..  best rt | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
Member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 278 Registered: 11-2002 |
ok, little ignorant here, so help me out on this: * other than $$ differences, why would someone choose -not- to upgrade to a distributorless system and get rid of the distributor? Seems like a good deal - reliable, get rid of old components, etc. | ||
| Steven R. Rochlin (Enjoythemusic)
Member Username: Enjoythemusic Post Number: 819 Registered: 4-2002 |
Verell, Fully agree! Like you (and as you know), have a Euro version here so you are right in that it makes no REAL difference. Would like to see someone spend the LONG green and post DYNO of before and after. Somehow doubt there would be much difference where it matters... especially for all that work and $$$$. Enjoy the Drive, Steven R. Rochlin | ||
| Julio Valladares (Jbanzai)
Junior Member Username: Jbanzai Post Number: 127 Registered: 2-2002 |
I also dounbt of their figures, but there is an improvment in flow. I do not think the Euro cars will benefit of this at all, unless your local laws requires you to add a cat now. However I think electonics in this case can make a difference. There is a big difference between the electronics in the 80's and todays electronics, faster, more reliable, more precise calculations, etc. Also they are they are allowing the engine to rev a bit higher, that could give them some more hp also. But in any case 4000 Euros will worth it, for a US version like mine, if the 300 HP were obtainable, which I do not belive. I will rather put those 4000 in the pot for the next Ferrari. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Intermediate Member Username: Verell Post Number: 1241 Registered: 5-2001 |
I know, but no one has reported a significant power gain with different exh. manifolds. That leaves the cats. Don't think anyone's ever claimed they switched to test pipes & got 30hp. Besides, You can buy high flow/low back-pressure cats for a lot less than this system costs. In any case, my car's a full Euro -> No cats so where would I get the claimed hp? | ||
| Julio Valladares (Jbanzai)
Junior Member Username: Jbanzai Post Number: 123 Registered: 2-2002 |
That kit is not only electronics, it includes exhaust manifolds and cat replacements. - Julio. | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 2045 Registered: 5-2001 |
Yeah, I'm skeptical too. Today, I had the local BMW dealer do a "software engine management upgrade" to my 540i. This is the Dinan brand offering and includes remapped ignition and fuel, which they show dyno charts bumping the output from the stock 282hp to around 291hp (they also claim better fuel economy at part throttle). It is subtle, but there is a bit more there, esp. in the midrange, and this removes the speed limiter too (set at 128mph), so the car may hit 150 or 155. So a few additional hp may be possible, but 30hp sounds like marketing hype. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 598 Registered: 2-2003 |
Verell I would agree that their 300hp claim for a 328 with stock airflow path for exactly the same reasons - even richening the mixture or changing advance would not yield 30hp I don't believe. It's mostly all about flow. best rt | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Intermediate Member Username: Verell Post Number: 1234 Registered: 5-2001 |
I'm highly skeptical of the hp gains claimed for the Lenz PowerKat system. Fuel effency possibly, emissions possibly, reliability possibly, but since the system doesn't remove any air/exhaust restrictions I doubt hp gain. Just my $0.02. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 597 Registered: 2-2003 |
I did not mention this $4K system as it actually replaces and combines the Kjet and ignition ECUs (keeping the existing twin coils and caps), but it does use the existing sensors: http://www.lenzmotorentechnikusa.com/ hope this helps Russ | ||
| DGS (Dgs)
Member Username: Dgs Post Number: 393 Registered: 5-2003 |
Anyone know of a programmable aftermarket system that can use the stock magnetic flywheel TDC/RPM sensors on the 3.2 engines? Most systems seem to be designed around their own sensors, rather than using the ones already there. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 596 Registered: 2-2003 |
Mike Thanks for the note! I'm glad you added a picture of the Electromotive unit. You brought up some great stuff, so here is update #1 to the original tome: Yes, the Crane unit falls into the optical trigger category much as the Pertronix. Here's the link to the new and improved Norwood website on the single distributor: http://www.norwoodperformance.com/engine_electronics.htm This includes an MSD, harness, block off plate and tach conversion - pretty much a straightforword parts swap for carb'd 308s with a couple of wires. Total price is $1495 + shipping. Installation would be 2 - 3 hours I'm guessing. Ben's unit is much less expensive at $500. Same installation time, maybe a bit less. Not as clean as the Norwood installation, but simpler. Ben does not include a block off plate for the unused side. Adding an MSD 6AL box with an 8000 rpm limiter ($200) puts the whole she-bang at about $800 with incidentals I'm guessing. Nick used to have more info on his website on the electromotive which I copied to my other computer - will try to get that for you if I can find it. The people that have it really like it, and it does give you the ultimate in control of the spark. Not sure how robust it is, there are some threads in the archives of those that have used it. It has a three dial-set pre determined break points and can have a MAP sensor for extra $$. The only mechanical concern I have is the mounting of the sensor and trigger wheel in the front as it looks pretty home made and can look pretty ricy if not done well (I may take some arrows for that, but why did they make it electric purple for Pete's sake?). Not sure of the costs over and above the $1500 purchase, would guess a few hundred bucks to install the trigger wheel. So I'm guessing total soup-to-nuts on this if someone else installs is about $2K. Something I forgot to mention is you can drive the ignition with a programmable Motec ECU with input from multiple sensors and coil per plug setup, but I think the juice for the squeeze is getting pretty low for just ignition replacement ($$$$$$). This is one of those that is great if your'e getting some entertainment value from it. Personal opinion only here. As to what's best for you - depends on what you want to do As far as what's right for you, well it depends on what you want to do. If you're going racing, would opt for the Electromotive. If you are a street guy and want to increase reliability with a stock look would go with Norwood. If you are going for reliability, cost-effective simplicity and non-stock appearance is ok, the Millermon is the way to go. This is just all my ranting here, and I'm happy we as Ferrari guys actually have some options. hope all of this research is springboard into making an educated decision. best to all rt | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 560 Registered: 10-2002 |
Yes, excellent summary, Russ. I personally am looking into Nick's HPV / Electromotive system, and your list is a helpful means to begin to understand if it's worth the extra cost. (Is it?) One very popular ignition that wasn't mentioned specifically is the Crane setup (there are one or two types), which I believe falls into your "Optical Trigger" category. Back to Nick's Electromotive setup, here's a photo, taken from Nick's webpage (A FerrariChat Sponsor at http://www.nicksforzaferrari.com/forzaferrariwebsite1001.htm). He's got a few different places that it can be mounted, depending on your car... As you point out, this is a distributorless setup--they just spin with the cam. Pic of the HPV unit:  | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 595 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hey Rob Do you think this warrants inclusion in the parts and service section? It's my only shot at immortality. best rt | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Intermediate Member Username: Verell Post Number: 1231 Registered: 5-2001 |
Nice summary TNX!!! Good timing too, I was just discussing the options with another owner for his '78 GTB. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 592 Registered: 2-2003 |
Since there has been some interest, here is some of my research on ignition replacement options for 308s and 328s. Will cover distributor based systems first Anatomy. First it's important to know a few differences between the cars. Early Euro 308s - Single distributor with twin points driving twin coils. Basically two distributors sharing a common cap. Late in the run there is a version of this single distributor with an electronic pickup (rare, sought after, and expensive). American 308s - two 4-cyl distributors run by two sets of points in each distributor. One is specifically set to modify the timing for emissions purposes at slow running. Many folks simply disconnect these as they are not neccesary to run the car and can be a poop to set. Fuel injected cars - here we go to Marelli electronic ignition driven by magnetic flywheel sensors. The 2v and qvs have 'Digiplex' systems with two seperate electronic control units (ECUs) firing a coil for each bank, which is partitioned out to the sparking plugs via a cap and rotor on the intake cams of each bank. The 328 and Mondial 3.2 updated to 'Microplex' with a single ECU driving both coils. Aftermarket replacement issues: This focuses on the little cam plug on the intake cam that will either drive a distributor as in the early V-8s, or three different rotor drives on the Digiplex/Microplex ignitions. It is important to note that the cam must come out for this plug to be changed. The 2v mounts a post drive for a now near extinct rotor (read $$$$) while the qv rotor post is different and the rotors somewhat more available (read $$). A popular option for 2v guys is to convert to the qv rotor and driver. The 3.2 liter engine is the most funky with the rotor held on by 3 screws into the plug on the end of the cam (TRs are similar). The caps on all of the electronic ignitions are the same. Options out there: 1. The single Euro distributor pretty much bolts on I'm told to the same distributor drive as the US cars. These are available, but a bit dear, especially the Euro electronic triggered version (purchase sources: Steve Ahlgrim, Dennis McCann) 2. A popular addition which increases the life of points and improves the spark on distributor engines are boxes like Multiple Spark Discharge (MSD) units. These work to lower the current across the points giving them a much longer life, and yield longer sparking duration improving idle and performance. 3.Many points have been converted to optical triggers (e.g. Pertronix), replacing the points and usuall combined with an MSD or other driver. It's important to use a ballasted resistor with the coil if not using an MSD, as ALL optical triggers (Pertronix, Mallory, etc) are sensitive to voltage spikes. 4.The Ben Millermon Single Distributor Conversion Tampa resident Ben Millermon has pioneered a custom single distributor using a standard Mallory optical trigger with readily available caps and rotors (Search archives for details) There are many of these on 2v cars replacing the dual distributors and owners say they work quite well. These clamp on where the cap was and use the stock rotor drive post. Development problems centered around driving the tach, but he has a custom tach driver now. Cost around $500 without an MSD. While not yet commonly available for the funky 3.2 rotor mount, it is in development. 5. Norwood Performance Single Distributor. This Dallas Texas based Ferrari shop converts 2v distributor to an electronic trigger and somehow uses a Chevy cap. I think the cost is also around $500. They do not do these for 3.2s 6. Mallory Unilite distributor and Norwood adaptor. What Norwood will do for 3.2s is make an adapterkit for the Mallory Unilite electronic distributor for a flathead V-8 Ford. This plate bolts on to the head and attaches an offset drive dog to run the $238 Mallory distributor. The kit costs about $550 - $600 Distributorless Ignitions If you want to keep your fuel induction but go to a distributorless electronic ignition, Electromotive make a unit for the Ferrari available from Nick's Forza Ferrari. It uses a magnetic sensor mounted on the front of the engine reading pulses from a ring that is machined onto the front pully or damper. Cost is about $1500 before installation. Nick sells the unit already modded for the Ferrari tach drive. Tachometer drive While we are on the subject, the Ferrari tachometer in the V-8 cars mentioned is really a 4 cylinder tach that is run off of one cylinder bank's coil or ECU. This is important if you are going to a single coil set-up. If you are unable to use the original sensors and ECU to drive the tach (will let you know in a couple of weeks) then you need to get a converter from Ben Millermon or have a reputable tachometer place convert the tach to a single coil signal. Please let me know of any corrections or additions as this could all be wrong. Hope this helps. best rt Pictures: Euro single distributor schematic  Millermon distributor installed  Norwood distributor installed  Mallory Unilite distributor  |