| Author | Message | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1999 Registered: 5-2001 |
Dave, I have used the Valvoline, but am currently using the Shell Rotella T 5w-40 synthetic, as I got a ton of it for $2.89 a quart at Walmart on sale. I have finally run out of it, so may switch back to the Valvoline next go around...though based on Ali's recommendations, I may drop to a 0w-30.....as I wouldn't mind seeing my oil pressures a bit lower. | ||
| Ulf Modig (Ulf308qv)
Junior Member Username: Ulf308qv Post Number: 86 Registered: 3-2001 |
Hi Ton, I guess you are already using syntetic oil (10W60 probably Castrol). I use Mobil 1 5W50. Ulf | ||
| Dave Tegeler (Aeroengineman)
New member Username: Aeroengineman Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm curious why nobody has mentioned the Full synthetic Valvoline 5W-40 it has the following specs:Meets Ferrari Spec API Services SJ/CF/SH ACEA Services A3/B3 plus all preceeding API, ACEA & CCMC categories. I have been using this oil in my F355 as an alternative to the Shell Helix Ultra and it performs very well at all engine temps and pressure is always with-in limits. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 3059 Registered: 9-2001 |
For what I've read, you never want to decrease the viscosity of your oils higher operating temp number. If you live in a cold climate, you can decrease the cold temp viscosity down to 0w if you need to, but you would still want to keep the higher operating temp viscosity rating. So, if you car calls for 20w50 for example, you can go to 0w50,5w50, 10w50,15w50 but not 0w40, 5w40 ect. The engine operating range remains the same in hot or cold weather. Its the better flow you get at start up in cold weather with a lower viscosity cold temp rating that can help in cold weather, not the higher operating temp viscosity. The recommended operating temp viscosity rating was calculated by the engine designers based on the internal tolerances of the engine. Too thin of an oil will not provide enough protection. With newer cars you have tighter internal engine tolerances that allow for thinner viscosity operating temp ratings. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 344 Registered: 6-2003 |
Ali, My Ftech friend says that I should try a lighter weight oil too, so I will dump the 15W50 and try to find some Synthetic 10W40 to run and see what results. (I didn't mean to suggest I would use what they use in the 24 hrs race...he also has over 20 yrs in maintaining Ferraris!) I just wanted to bounce the oil pressures issue off of him since I was concerned there might be something wrong with my engine. I guess not. I will say this though, I run my car HARD. By no means am I the usual city driver. I regularly hit 7K RPM. It is only above 6K that the pressure exceeds max recomm with the Mobil 1. Jim | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 159 Registered: 5-2003 |
Jim, I would go along with his recommendation for the 24 hour race but around town driving requires different oil. People just cannot understand that no one oil does it all. ali | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 341 Registered: 6-2003 |
Interestingly, I called the Service Manager at Continental Motorsports and advised him of my experience with Mobil 1, and that AGIP is not avail in Indy, and although they couldn't ship me any AGIP, he suggested I use Castrol GTX 20W50. He has 30 yrs exp with Ferrari. Now, I know Castrol GTX is not a synthetic and find it interesting they would recommend this over a synthetic. I am going to call a friend of mine, an Ftech who has worked on Boxer 24 hr of LeMans team and see what he says about it. I am really only concerned about the pressures issue. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 340 Registered: 6-2003 |
I find it very interesting, at the least, that engine performance can be effected by oil choice. Since performance changes, there is obvious change of dynamics in the engine attributed to oil selection. It is obviously not an irrelevant issue for that reason. I used to race motorcycles and we quickly found out that some oils get better performance and some effect engine life. I have no doubt the same is true in high performance engines like a TR. Rob (Spanker), why don't you try using Baby Oil in your car for a 100 mi and report back to us the results. I would be very interested to see what happens.  | ||
| William Moss (Moss)
New member Username: Moss Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2003 |
And then you have my brother that changes oil once a year if it needs it or not with 10/40 valvoline petroleum. 15 years same engine 300k miles and he laughs at me about being anal about oil. Ha Ha Billy | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1719 Registered: 4-2002 |
Oh, and BTW, about being anal about oil: I work in a shop that does regular engine work. We see engines needing rebuilt at 50K, and some that run fine at 300K. The one and only difference: Type of oil, and oil change frequency. I can certainly be argued that the frequency is more important than oil type, and I'm in no position to dispute that. But all of the 300K+ motors that I've seen have lived with either synthetics or top-of-the-line dino. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1718 Registered: 4-2002 |
Mobil 0 mystery solved! First of all, I find it totally bizarre that a Mobil representative would deny the existance of "Mobil 0", even tho it's now obsolete. I went to Wally World, and found the usual dull grey label "Mobil 1", and two real colorful labels representing "Drive Clean" and "Drive Clean Plus". No "Mobil 0". But on a hunch, I reached in back of all the "Drive Clean Plus" bottles looking for old stock. Viola!! "Mobil 0" in bold Mobil 1-like print, with "Drive Clean" and "Synthetic Blend" below that. Even tho it was the blend, it wasn't called "Plus". I suspect that the labeling caused confusion. | ||
| Rob Lay (Spanker)
New member Username: Spanker Post Number: 35 Registered: 9-2003 |
Ali, Actually I use helium to fill the tires. It makes the car lighter, and hence faster. Spanky | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 158 Registered: 5-2003 |
You guys and gals laugh at Rob but there have been threads on what type of gas one should use in the tires. I use 70 percent nitrogen, 21 percent oxygen some carbon dioxide, argon, hydrogen and a host of other less proprietary gases. aehaas | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 157 Registered: 5-2003 |
Jim, It sounds like the oil you are using is way too thick. For a new-ish Testarossa I would use a 0W-30 or 0W-40 at the thickest. The brand is less important. If you are on the race track the oil viscosity would probably be OK, but only on the track. ali | ||
| William Moss (Moss)
New member Username: Moss Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2003 |
This is not the Rob Lay that I know. | ||
| Rob Lay (Spanker)
New member Username: Spanker Post Number: 32 Registered: 9-2003 |
What kind of air should I run in my tires? Synthetic or natural? | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1717 Registered: 4-2002 |
No joke, Ali. The high priced stuff says "Mobil" with a large "1" underneath. The cheap stuff has a similar label with a large "0" underneath "Mobil". The labels are very similar. I'm going to re-check the fine print, as I'm beginning to suspect that "Mobil 0" is the Drive Clean Plus product. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 338 Registered: 6-2003 |
Ali, I just performed my first oil change on Testarossa w/ 10K mi (I have owned since 7K). I used Mobil 1, 15W50 and stock filter. I noticed that my oil pressure is now about 100 psi and fluctuates with RPM (down to about 75 at idle start), whereas it used to run at 85 very consistently (incl startup) with Valvoline Racing 20W50. Is this a sign that I should continue using Valvoline? Is the higher oil pressure going to make the engine prone to develop leaks? I have heard this is just outdated rap on Synthetics, but I am curious and don't want leaky engine. Jim | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 156 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hans, I just made another call to a friend at Mobil. He said there was no product called Mobil 0 (Mobil Zero). Are you referring to oil weights that start with zero as 0W-20 or 0W-30 Mobil 1? Post a picture of whatever this is or is this just a big joke on Ali? ali PS The science of oil is very complex. Big corporations are spending big money to perfect it. | ||
| Big Ones (Tots)
New member Username: Tots Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2003 |
Do you all ask your mom's what kind of underwear to get? Jesus it's motor oil. Ask the dealer and buy a case of it. It's not rocket science | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1716 Registered: 4-2002 |
Err, Ali, I just saw bottles of "Mobil 0" at Walmart. Little mistaking what the label says. BTW, Wally World often has great prices on the 5 qt jug of Mobil 1. As far as the dino/syn content of Mobil 1, I received this email from Mobil: "All Mobil1 motor oils that have ever been introduced are fully synthetic motor oils and are not hydrocracked. Mobil1 motor oils only contain Group IV and V basestocks." | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 155 Registered: 5-2003 |
Billy, I agree that modern oils are all good and brands make little difference. However, synthetic oils are thinner at room and lower temperatures making them better for cooler engines in any climate and mandatory for cold environments. Also, synthetic oils last longer as they are not dependent on additives for viscosity. It makes no difference if you change the oil frequently. Again, I use non-synthetic Pennzoil in every car but the 575. There I use Mobil 1, not because it is Mobil 1, rather because it has the properties I am looking for in my 575. ali | ||
| William Moss (Moss)
New member Username: Moss Post Number: 19 Registered: 9-2003 |
Independent studies prove that the new mobil 1 is not a true synthetic. I will find the data and site for this. There is a book out called The Motor Oil Bible which has a great deal of this knowledge in it from a petro engineer. Very good independent studies. Other than that, these motor oil debates could go on and on. Use whatever oil suits your taste. It is very rare to have a mechanical failure in a engine related to brand of oil used. Billy | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 153 Registered: 5-2003 |
Jim, If you are getting smoke then your engine is well worn and likely needs the thicker stuff. The viscosity of oil required is a function of engine temperature and wear. Older, worn engines are not as tight and will require a thicker oil to get the appropriate pressure. The error most people make in my opinion as that they think thicker oil by itself is always better. You need the appropriate pressure, not too much or too little. Both are bad. ali | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 152 Registered: 5-2003 |
I just got off the phone with Steve at tech support, Mobil automotive lubricates department. They have only 3 oils, Mobil Drive Clean, dino oil, - Drive Clean Plus, a blend of mineral and synthetic oils, and - Mobil 1, fully synthetic, no minerals oils are used. Mobil 1 is PAO based as many synthetics but adds other fully synthetic additives, hence the "blend" of synthetic lubricants. That is why they call it Tri-syn, it is a blend of fully synthetic lubricants. It does not contain any mineral components. Also he told me there is no such product as Mobil 0. aehaas | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 337 Registered: 6-2003 |
Ali, I noticed that I got more mileage and less smoke at start up with 50 wt in my Carrera from the time it was new. I tried more than once to go to lighter weight oil and it would burn off a qt in 800 mi v 1000. My mechanic said there is some leakage into the cylinders when the engine is hot at the time it is shut off, not when it is cold just before start. I think it is moreso with lighter wt oil. | ||
| William Moss (Moss)
New member Username: Moss Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2003 |
No confusion. Mobil 1 tri-syn is not pure synthetic any more. The bottle does not say so but independent test have confirmed it. Mobil 1 will also confirm if you call them. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1708 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ali, William: I think the confusion is that Mobil's newest product "Mobil 0" is a blend. Many people seem to get this confused with Mobil 1. I almost bought some by mistake a while back. It was the much lower price that tipped me off. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 3039 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ton, most Ferraris since the 80s have came from the factory with synthetic oil. If your car calls for an AGIP SINT oil, that is synthetic. | ||
| Ton Visser (Lion315)
Member Username: Lion315 Post Number: 713 Registered: 12-2002 |
Ali, Can I use synthetic oil in my 328? Ton | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 144 Registered: 5-2003 |
William Moss, You stated that Mobil 1 was no longer fully synthetic. I checked on that. They state on their product sheets that their automotive Mobil 1 motor oils are all fully synthetic. Their web site FAQ home page states the same thing. ali | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 141 Registered: 5-2003 |
Ton, You should easily be able to change the oil and filter. The difficulty is getting the bottom body covers off. You have to get the car well off the ground. Use a thinner oil if the pressure permits for around town driving. I use 0W-20 Mobil 1. Mitch, I would try the 0W-30 next. I suspect you would get another 5 lbs off and 10 - 20 degrees down. I do not think a 15 degree outside temp change has much effect on 250 - 300 degree oil, all other things being equal. Jim, 'Makes no sense to me. 50 wt oil is 10 times thicker at room temperature than in a hot engine. Most oil loss in a tight engine is from vaporization. You may have a problem with blow by dilution of your oil when hot. Oil volume may actually increase in this way. Dragsters with very high output engines start with 70 or 90 wt oils because they end up being 0 wt by the end of the race because of blow by dilution. ali | ||
| Ton Visser (Lion315)
Member Username: Lion315 Post Number: 707 Registered: 12-2002 |
Ali, Thanks! It is clear to me now. My mechanic currently is using 10w60 racing oil for my engine. Is it really that simple to change the oil yourself? I would like to do the small things myself but because I have no such experience at all I am a bit scared that I will make stupid mistakes. Are there any pitholes? Furthermore I understand that 10w60 is good for the track and that it does not really matter what oil you use for normal street driving (10w60 or 10w50). Ton | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Intermediate Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 1155 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ali: Oil Pressures: 10W40 Start (cold) idle 75-80, warm idle 45, warm 3000 RPMs 100, warm Redline 105, after track session idle 30-35, After track session 2000 RPMs 45-50, On track peak 85-90 20W50 Start (cold) idle 75, warm idle 50, warm 3000 105, warm redline 105, after track 30-35 after track 2000 45-50, on track peak 85-90 oil temp: Cruising lowest 10W40: 183dF; 20W50 188dF Track highest 10W40 235dF; 20W50 245dF So the pressure only dropped 5 PSI. Certainly the oil was running cooler at the track, but the weather was 15dF cooler also. Oil temp on long distance cruising was lower, but the car had water wetter applied and the system bled (water temp was also down). I can't rule these as the point of cause. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 307 Registered: 6-2003 |
In my experience with a boxer engine (about 150K mi), it burns more oil on startup with lower weight oil, particularly in hot weather (most of my exp is in Denver with rather hot summer temps). For that reason, I prefer a 50 wt. oil. | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 138 Registered: 5-2003 |
Ton, The way I think of it is that y gives you the oil thickness you should look for when your engine is hot. Think how hot you will be running and what thickness of oil will give you the proper pressure. Too much or too little pressure is undesireable. X is the thickness you should look for if your engine temperature is just starting up. Here you want the lowest number, zero (0) for example. Oil is never thinner when it cools, it only thickens on cooling. It is currently impossible to have the appropriate thickness when in a hot engine and too thin when cool, it can only be thicker. ali | ||
| Ton Visser (Lion315)
Member Username: Lion315 Post Number: 704 Registered: 12-2002 |
And if you look at the oil of type xWy. What does the x mean and what does the y mean? Maybe I should have understood this out of the messages on this thread but I have to admit that it still dazzles me. regards, Ton | ||
| Ton Visser (Lion315)
Member Username: Lion315 Post Number: 703 Registered: 12-2002 |
OK guys, I tried to read this thread and now I am dazzled by numbers. So what engine oil should I use in my 328 for normal street driving (and why)? And how often should I change it? thanks, Ton PS: actually I have never changed the engine oil myself. Is it really that simple? Is a matter of unscrewing the plug and change the filter? | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 135 Registered: 5-2003 |
Mitch, What did your pressures do? Can you go to 0W-30 Mobil 1 ? If you do, make sure you empty all the oil ines and the oil cooler. ali | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Intermediate Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 1145 Registered: 4-2002 |
As an addendum to Ali Haas, I have been running 10W40 for the last 1500 miles (and 3 track days) instead of the 20W50 I have been running for the previous year (and 25 track days). While the data and operating conditions were not strictly controlled, and my car had water wetter added (also); My result is: A) startup, faster to reasonable oil pressure with 10W40 than 20W50 by just under 1 second (closer to 2 sec on 10W40, closer to 3 sec on 20W50). B) town, essentially same oil temp (205) C) long cruise, probably lower oil temp (10W40 was 183 while 20W50 was 190) D) track days, probably lower oil temp (10W40 was 265 while 20W50 was 290) BIG CAVEAT: this track day was 15dF cooler than comparable 20W50 track days. D) oil consumption 10W40 ~1qt in 1000 miles 20W50 less than 1 qt in 3000 miles. | ||
| Alan Leach (Speedy308)
Junior Member Username: Speedy308 Post Number: 233 Registered: 12-2002 |
Talk to Mark McFann at 281 354-8600 and tell him I sent you! Some of the info on the products is proprietary, but they have a tech support guy I'm sure. Availability here in Houston thru O'Reilly and Tommy Vaughan Ford. Imagine when I pull into the parts dept. THERE and park with the Saleen Mustangs. LOL | ||
| William Moss (Moss)
New member Username: Moss Post Number: 16 Registered: 9-2003 |
Interesting. Maybe a call to RP is in order. I live in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and alot of racers use this oil. They can hardly keep it on the shelves at the speed shops around here. | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 134 Registered: 5-2003 |
I have been studying the product data sheets on Royal Purple multi-viscosity motor oils. If they had a high specific gravity then maybe the product would hold more heat, but I doubt it would make a noticable difference. That spec is not given. All other brands I have investigated give that data. Also, they state that all listed specs are "typical and may vary". I have never seen that statement before. For the moment I would not use RP, pending further information. aehaas | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 133 Registered: 5-2003 |
More from before.... I just found more data... SAE J300, viscosities at 212 F... 20, range - 5.6 to 9.2 30, 9.3 - 12.4 40, 12.5 - 16.2 50, 16.3 - 21.8 60, 21.9 - 26.1 By a modified analysis the min. viscosity at 302 F... 20, 2.6 30, 2.9 40, 2.9 - 3.7 50, 3.7 60, 3.7 Note again that the difference between the 20W and 60 weight oils at 302 F is only about 1 (one). Whereas the difference in viscosity at 104 F is 120 units. The 20W has a vs of 40 and the 60W a vs of 160. Conclusion - At lower temperatures where most wear and tear occurs the difference in viscosity from 20W to 60W is large, while at high temperatures the viscosity difference is minimal, almost negligible. aehaas ali | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 3030 Registered: 9-2001 |
I was told on the phone yesterday by the Royal Purple folks that your oil temp may increase a little with their product because it is so good at absorbing the heat out of the engine parts to the oil. Has anyone ever heard of that ? I still plan to use Redline 15w50 this time around. | ||
| William Moss (Moss)
New member Username: Moss Post Number: 14 Registered: 9-2003 |
Its stange but true. You be the judge. Put your favorite oil in the car and drive it. Drain it and put royal purple in. See if you dont notice a difference in power. Kind of expensive in a ferrari 14 quart capacity. It also worked for my harley. It's very interesting. If this is the case then the oil is contibuting to less friction. Besides I like the purple tint of the oil. Billy | ||
| William Moss (Moss)
New member Username: Moss Post Number: 13 Registered: 9-2003 |
Mobil one's new tri-syn oil is no longer 100 percent synthetic. The older mob 1 was. Just for thought. Billy | ||
| Gregory (Prugna_328)
Junior Member Username: Prugna_328 Post Number: 52 Registered: 9-2003 |
Long ago and far away I had a Dodge Daytona Shelby Z. I used Mobil 1. Most of the Chrysler product from that era ate their turbo at about 60'000 miles. My brother now has the car and its stll going strong at 180,000 miles with the orig. tirbo. Also at about 150,000 I had the head gasket done. My mechanic said he couldnt believe how clean it was inside under the valve cover. After my experience with that car, I'm a believer. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1698 Registered: 4-2002 |
My 1975 308GT4 has had it's oil changed about every 1500 miles, or 6 months max for it's entire life. The PO used Castrol GTX, and claimed it looked brand new/unused when drained. However........ I switched to Mobil 1. The first several oil changes had very dark oil draining out. As I've used it, each successive change gives me a cleaner looking drain pan. My theory: The Castrol had some breakdown (as Nick described below), and the Mobil 1 gradually cleaned it out. Just a guess, but it matches observation. | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 131 Registered: 5-2003 |
Why is Royal Purple superior? Maybe I should use it instead of Mobil. I am not married to the stuff. aehaas | ||
| Alan Leach (Speedy308)
Junior Member Username: Speedy308 Post Number: 224 Registered: 12-2002 |
We aren't turbos! We have older cars that DO need the 50W to maintain oil pressure. Royal Purple is 100% synthetic. Superior to Mobil 1 IMO. I've boycotted Exxon since the Valdez. Get up there and clean off those sea otters!LOL | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 130 Registered: 5-2003 |
On a personal note I am not sure that brand matters that much. More important is the appropriate viscocity for the engine under the conditions it is used. Make sure the oil is SL rated. Use the oil with the lowest first number. 0W-40 should always used instead of 10W or 20W-40. If you change the oil often, mineral oil is OK but synthetic oil should be used if you go longer or hotter. In cold climates, up north in the winter, you must use synthetic oils. I personally use Mobil 1 synthetic and Penzoil non-synthetic oils in my 5 cars. ali | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 129 Registered: 5-2003 |
More from before... I copied a very important fact from another poster--- Nick Scianna (Nick) Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 3:19 am: On the other end of the thermal spectrum, synthetic oils are also renowned for their high-temperature thermal stability. Superior high-temp stability ensures and engine lubricant's capacity to protect vital engine components during very-high-temperature operation, such as hot summer driving, sustained high-speed driving, repetitious stop and go metropolitan driving, driving in mountainous terrain,etc.Underhood temperatures also take a quantum leap with the use of Turbos,Superchargers or power options,such as air conditioning b& because of emissions devices and emissions-related engine redesign. It is important to note that, even though the dash gauge may register only a 200F or so water/coolant temperature, the temperature of the sump and of all the assorted bearing surfaces significantly exceed the water temperature, and OFTEN SURPASS 500F on the piston ring and cylinder wall areas. These high-temperature surfaces serve to rapidly decompose petroleum oil and additives, as well as contribute to their shorter service life, while the synthetic is largely unaffected. Beyond the protection afforded an engine during these particular instances of high-operating temperatures, high-temp thermal stability moreover permits an engine oil to deliver overall extended service life (significantly longer drain intervals) in all driving conditions, because it prevents the phenomenon of sludge and carbon deposit formations on critical engine parts (valves, valve guides, oil channels,cam followers, piston rings,etc. al.) due to oil thickening, a problem commonly attributable to petroleum oil breakdown at high temperature. As these deposits accumulate in the oil circulatory system, oil flow drops, thus accelerating engine wear. To the user of synthetics, the benefits are (1) reduced wear of critical engine components; (2) significantly reduced sludge and varnish... a cleaner engine; (3) reduced engine drag due to uniform viscosity; and (4) increased fuel economy due to reduced component wear. Mobil Oil reported the results of simulated hot weather performance with its Mobil 1 synthetic as evaluated by a standardized, grueling engine test known as the Olds III-D. In this test, an Oldsmobile 350" V8 engine is run for 64 hours at a 100-hp load and 300F crankcase oil temperature. This test is designed to measure an oils ability to resist oxidation and evaporation (and consequent thickening) at high temperature. (If it seems odd that oil would *thicken* at high temperature, consider the analogy of heating a pan of cold syrup on a stove.At first it would become quite thinner, but if left for, say, several hours, the resultant evaporation would cause the syrup to become progressively thicker.) In order to qualify for the American Petroleum Institutes top "SF" rating, a motor oil must pass the III-D test. This means that it can thicken to no more than 375% of original viscosity at the end of 64 hours of continuous running. Mobil states: "To test the extra stability provided by the Mobil synthetic oil, we decided to run the III-D *for 128 hours*...double its normal length...and without oil drain. The Mobil 1 synthetic easily passed the test under these brutal conditions, thickening only an insignificant 20%. For comparison, a high-performance premium conventional oil was tested under identical conditions. That test had to stop at 96 hours; the oil had turned solid. Another premium conventional oil forced the the test to stop at 112 hours, well before the end of the scheduled double length." Amoco Conducted an identical double-sequence III-D test on its Ultimate 5W-30 synthetic; it also passed the test with flying colors, thickening only 18%. I am back. I will reiterate that in my thinking 50 percent of the oils function is cooling and cool parts wear less, all other things being equal. This again goes to say that thinner oil that gives the appropriate pressure will flow more, cool more and because it is cooler it will also be a little thicker. If you want a slightly thicker oil, use a thinner one. The engine will not get as hot so the oil will not get as thin. Common sense is great but does not always give the scientific answer. aehaas ali | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 128 Registered: 5-2003 |
These are previous posts of mine in part that may be of some help, or not..... Brian Willis has a lot of good info. However there are some oil misconceptions outstanding. The biggest one is that thicker oil is better. False. Higher speed turbines use thinner oil. Lubrication is not what you feel rubbing that oil between your fingers. Lubrication in engines is oil FLOW between moving parts. The general saying that 90 percent of engine wear and tear occurs in cold engines is close to the truth. The most basic viscosity needs are defined by a pressure of 10 PSI per 1,000 RPM at operating temperature. My 575 M manual states the target pressure is 74 PSI at 6,000 RPM. The oil supplied with the car gives me about 80 PSI at 2,000 RPM, way too high. This is with around the town driving. I am sure that on the racetrack at full power and a hotter engine this thicker oil is fine. For my usual driving however, the thicker oil is causing more engine wear. The manual of my old 550 Maranello gave only Shell Helix Ultra 5-40 for all uses. Oils are not that versatile. For around town use a thin oil, for the track use a thicker one. The new 575 manual states that the oil should be 15-50 for racing and 0-40 for around town. They are finally making more sense. Oils are getting thinner. Ford now supplies most cars with 5 - 20 oil, previously it was 5 - 30. If you test different oils in your engine you will notice the engine oil temperature decreasing with thinner oils. At some point the next thinner oil will result in the engine temperature starting to go back up. This lowest temperature point is that with the least friction. A friend recently changed from Mobil 1 15-50 in his big SUV to Pennzoil 5-20 and went from 10 to 13 MPG around town. There was a slight decrease in engine oil temperature. The savings was also in cost for oil. His biggest enjoyment was the increase in get up and go power. For time trials all Indy and Stock cars use thinner oils to get more power. These oils will not stay thick enough for a long hot race but around the town driving is nothing like racing. The last misconception I will tell you about is that those oil viscosity numbers on that oil can are not what you think at all. For example, Pennzoil 100W EP gear oil is almost the exact same thickness as straight 30W engine oil. The additives are different. 10-30 Mobil 1 is thicker with a cold engine than 0-30 Mobil 1 but the 0-30 is actually thicker than the 10-30 with a hot engine. If you need a thicker oil with your hot engine the 0-30 is better than the 10-30 Mobil 1. I am using 5-20 Pennzoil in my V12 Mercedes sedan and V12 SL coupe. I use it in my Expedition as well. When I get to 1,000 miles on the 575 M I will change the oil to a thinner one and work my way down. I used 5-20 in my 550 Maranello around town. By the oil pressures I could have gone thinner yet. The recommended 5-40 for that car was only good for high speed racing in summer heat at Orlando Florida. Otherwise it was way too thick, increased engine wear, decreased power and gas mileage. All Mobil 1 oil viscosities are lower than other brands with the same rating such as 10W-30. The oil is thinner and I think this contributes to the engine longevity they are claiming. Also, a thinner oil will make starting easier, the starter motor works less, lasts longer. Same for the battery. The lower temp under the hood increases the life of rubber and plastic parts. The list goes on. Mr Willis said that the shear ratings were higher for synthetic lubes. I cannot find any data to support this. The high temperature shear ratings for Pennzoil mineral oil 5W30 is 3.1 and the Synthetic Pennzoil 5W-30 is 3.05. For Castrol the numbers are 3.1 for the GTX mineral and 2.92 for the full Syntec. These numbers indicate that mineral based oils have better shear protection than the synthetic. The above is my opinion based on years of research and data collection, speaking with people at SAE and individual oil companies chemists to mention a few. aehaas Mitch, Ideally you should use different oils for the track and routine street driving. If you are getting 90 PSI at 4,000 RPM when the temp is 285 F at the track, then you can probably go to the next thinner oil for the track. If you are using xW-50 then go to xW-40. Because their differences are less at higher temperatures you may be able to go to xW-30. X should always be the lowest number possible. 20W-50 is not as good as 10W-50 is not as good as 0W-50, never. You always want the cold oil thickness to be as thin as possible. I will not go into the reasons but use fully synthetics oils always, in high performance engines. This is not because synthetics are better at the same temperature and thickness, false. Mitch, put 0W-30 Mobil 1 in there and give me the pressure at 2,000 and at 4,000 RPM at track temperatures. If the oil is too thin I will let you know and pay you $50 for your trouble. This is inexpensive research. aehaas Mitch, There are a lot of possibilities. I would not worry about it. I would guess there is thinning from blow by dilution and some wear and tear. Is this synthetic oil? In general, mineral oils have viscosity index improvers and thin over the first few thousand miles then thicken over time. They start out 30W, then go to 20W, then up to 40W about the time it should be replaced. In general, fully synthetic oils do not have any VI improvers. They are a single weight oil. Their properties however, are that of mineral oils with VI mixed in there. The synthetic oils maintain a single viscosity over time. There was a thread somewhere by somebody who analyzed their engine oil ever 1,000 miles in a Camaro. Does anyone know that link. The guy was up to 10,000 miles with essentially no change in viscosity. aehaas There is only one reason to use a multi viscosity oil, otherwise we can use a single weight oil for everything. Most wear and tear occurs when the oil is cold (104 F). Little wear occurs when hot (212 F). A straight 30W has a viscosity of 100 when cold (104 F) and a viscosity of 10 or 11 when hot (212 F). A mineral multi viscosity oil such as 10W-30 has a vs of 10 when hot and 70 when cold. A synthetic 0-30 Mobil1 product will have a vs of 10 when hot and 50 when cold. Note that the vs is always 10 when hot but the multi oils are much thinner when cold. This minimizes wear and tear when it happens most, when the engine is cold. The purpose of multi viscosity oils is to minimizes wear when the oil is cold (104 F). Also there is easier starting, better power, better fuel economy with a thinner cold engine oil than a thicker one. I will repeat that most synthetic oils are in fact a single weight oil. They are not multi viscosity oils derived with the use of VI improvers. They are single weight oils that act as if they were mineral multi viscosity oils. You CAN have your cake and eat it too. aehaas Mitch, I do not have my SAE documents at hand so I am guessing. Remember that we are only dealing with the second number. When the engine is hot a 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30 or straight 30W oil have the same viscosity. The only hot data is at 212 F -- 2W is 3 5W is 4 - 5 10W is 5 - 6 20W is 8 - 9 30W is 10 - 11 40W is 13 - 15 50W is 18 - 20 60W is 23 - 24 They are not tested but at 2 temperatures, 104 and 212 F. Any other viscosity relation to a temperature would have to be an educated guess. At 290 F I would guess the viscosities are -- 2W 1 5W 1.5 10W 2 20W 3 30W 3.5 40W 4 50W 5 Note that a viscosity of 0 is relative and not actually zero. It is a function of the scale and method used for measurement. Another example is the F and C scales of temperature. At zero degrees there is no absence of energy. The real and absolute temperature at zero C is actually 273 degrees Kelvin. At zero K there is no molecular movement. On the Celsius scale it is -273 degrees C, -460 F. As I said before, the viscosity differences are minimal at higher temperatures. They are substantial at lower temperatures where most wear and tear occurs. This is why they are using 2W, 5W, 10W and the like in high RPM and high heat formula engines. I hope this helps. aehaas ali | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 3028 Registered: 9-2001 |
Which oil is best, Royal Purple or Redline ? | ||
| William Moss (Moss)
New member Username: Moss Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2003 |
Castrol 10/60 syn is great oil. Zf recommends this for their transmissions ( 6 speeds ) in corvettes and Bmw's. I now use royal purple in my zr1 motor and trans. Gained 7 hp at the wheels. No oil has ever done this to my knowledge. Hod Rod mag. now endorses this oil after their own dyno test. Take your pick, however 10/40 in winter and 20/50 summer would work just fine if you understand the science behind multi vicosity oil. Good Luck | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 3027 Registered: 9-2001 |
The Castrol RS 10w60 is called for in my BMW M5. | ||
| Julio Valladares (Jbanzai)
Junior Member Username: Jbanzai Post Number: 87 Registered: 2-2002 |
Spain Ferrari dealers are using 10W 60 like the Castrol Formula RS on the 328s, as far as I know. | ||
| Alan Leach (Speedy308)
Junior Member Username: Speedy308 Post Number: 216 Registered: 12-2002 |
Call RP and see if they will formulate some. 281 354 8600 They have provided support for the Texas running of the Bulls. Tell them the "World's Fastest Art Car" sent you!!! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 3024 Registered: 9-2001 |
I've been using Redline 20w50 but wanted to start using the 10w50 specified for my car. I just can't find a company that makes 10w50? | ||
| Alan Leach (Speedy308)
Junior Member Username: Speedy308 Post Number: 213 Registered: 12-2002 |
Frank, email me. I was just out at the Royal Purple world HQ in Porter, Texas and picked up their full line brochures. Would be glad to mail one in snail mail. They are small enough to give us special attention if we can articulate Ferrari's special needs. I have run the 20-50W in my 308 with no ill effects, per JRV. Looking at the 75-90W GL-5 for gearcase as well. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 3023 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ferrari calls for AGIP Sint 2000 10w50 oil for my BB512i. However, AGIP no longer makes 10w50 but now makes 5w50 instead. I have been unable to find any other brand that makes a 10w50 oil either. I assume the AGIP 5w50 will be fine ? Anyone have any comments or other suggestions. |