Chinetti Sues Ferrari

[amenasce]

Chinetti is claiming that cars that were modified in time can not be certified which would mean that all the cars his shop modified when they were racing wouldnt be able to pass Classiche.

At least, this is what i understood!

[Napolis]

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[Napolis]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kennedy

I for one would like to read the actual documents filed in the lawsuit. That is the only way to understand the actual assertions of each side.

I have a suspicion that the 3-seater is far less of an issue here but other cars and parts that Lou may have in storage are.

Jeff

They are public record and make interesting reading.

[SAFE4NOW]

Originally Posted by Napolis

.

Thank you for posting this article.

After reading the article, I was left with a question. In regards to the Daytona that had previous poor repairs. It doesn't mention if the poor repairs were corrected durhing the Classiche process. The Dealership " called around " and spoke to " those in the know " who stated it "had" or "was"... It is possible that the previous concerns and poor repairs were brought up to spec/standard, yes?

Now, speaking from our position, when we perform the inspections, we offer an itemized list of areas of concern and would only be able to complete the process after they have been addressed. Aftermarket exhaust on a 16m as an example.

I'm new and am trying to learn. We are expected to perform a number of Classiche inspections per year, reading threads like this help me to understand why clients may be reluctant to.

I'll continue to watch this thread,

S

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by SAFE4NOW

Thank you for posting this article.

After reading the article, I was left with a question. In regards to the Daytona that had previous poor repairs. It doesn't mention if the poor repairs were corrected durhing the Classiche process. The Dealership " called around " and spoke to " those in the know " who stated it "had" or "was"... It is possible that the previous concerns and poor repairs were brought up to spec/standard, yes?

Now, speaking from our position, when we perform the inspections, we offer an itemized list of areas of concern and would only be able to complete the process after they have been addressed. Aftermarket exhaust on a 16m as an example.

I'm new and am trying to learn. We are expected to perform a number of Classiche inspections per year, reading threads like this help me to understand why clients may be reluctant to.

I'll continue to watch this thread,

S

I had a nice chat with Coco Chinetti today who mentioned that as far a racing cars go NART changed a lot of things including the shape of cars/brakes (they sometimes used Corvette Brakes in cars that ran at Le Man) and many other things like ignition components which they sourced from the local hardware store and Speed Shop. As the last Ferrari to finish 1 overall at Le Mans was one of NART's what they did seemed to work.

Frankly I can't see having any value in Classiching a modern Ferrari. Some place a value on classiche certificates on historic Ferrari's but I don't.

I do attach a high value to what those who were there in the day have to say and what the metal says.

There are many experts who know a lot more than Classiche does and several collector's who do as well.

[ggjjr]

Originally Posted by f308jack

I tend to agree with that, but it also doesn't rule out any risks of obtaining flawed advice. Note, I am NOT making any statement about MM with this, I think I would trust his advice above anyone elses, just saying that wherever large sums of money change hands, minds get bent.

Just as a comparison, the FCA Gold Standard (I think it is called that?) dictates a car should have its' original engine. I know for a fact that a car has a Gold FCA certificate, whilst it doesn't have the original engine. So, what does an FCA certification/qualification then mean?

I don't think the FCA would place any monetary value on a Platinum Award. In fact, I would think that they and other clubs (the NCRS is in the midst of this, right now) would actively discourage the use of their awards as a "value added" document.
Regarding a car having a Platinum Award from the FCA without its original engine, I can tell you that any modern car where the engine number is not readily visible from the top of the engine compartment could have a replacement engine and still receive the highest award possible. I would like to think that it is the correct type, and that if it wasn't that would be recognized. Verifying engine numbers on these newer cars is just not practical with the current way the cars are judged. The judging process is not intended to convey value, hence there is no extraordinary effort to verify details like this.

George

[GIOTTO]

Originally Posted by Napolis

There are many experts who know a lot more than Classiche does and several collector's who do as well.

Some are here on Fchat.

[ggjjr]

Originally Posted by Daytonafan

I guess your inferring that these buyers are new to the classic Ferrari market?

In my opinion, many of the buyers of these classic Ferraris are buying them as works of art, or assessories. I have listened to many casual conversations during the Pebble week of (I assume) wealthy people contemplating buying one of these cars. It is evident from said conversations that they know next to nothing about these cars. Admitting that I, also, know next to nothing compared to many on this board.

George

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by ggjjr

I don't think the FCA would place any monetary value on a Platinum Award. In fact, I would think that they and other clubs (the NCRS is in the midst of this, right now) would actively discourage the use of their awards as a "value added" document.
Regarding a car having a Platinum Award from the FCA without its original engine, I can tell you that any modern car where the engine number is not readily visible from the top of the engine compartment could have a replacement engine and still receive the highest award possible. I would like to think that it is the correct type, and that if it wasn't that would be recognized. Verifying engine numbers on these newer cars is just not practical with the current way the cars are judged. The judging process is not intended to convey value, hence there is no extraordinary effort to verify details like this.

George

There's also completely new engines made by classiche that are in their minds more correct that a correct period replacement engine?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by GIOTTO

Some are here on Fchat.

[ggjjr]

Originally Posted by Napolis

There's also completely new engines made by classiche that are in their minds more correct that a correct period replacement engine?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Jim,
hence the aversion to attach value to such an award. One group may have a different opinion than another group or individual. Letting that be, to me, shows a level of honesty and balance.

George

[BigTex]

Originally Posted by ggjjr

I don't think the FCA would place any monetary value on a Platinum Award. In fact, I would think that they and other clubs (the NCRS is in the midst of this, right now) would actively discourage the use of their awards as a "value added" document.
Regarding a car having a Platinum Award from the FCA without its original engine, I can tell you that any modern car where the engine number is not readily visible from the top of the engine compartment could have a replacement engine and still receive the highest award possible. I would like to think that it is the correct type, and that if it wasn't that would be recognized. Verifying engine numbers on these newer cars is just not practical with the current way the cars are judged. The judging process is not intended to convey value, hence there is no extraordinary effort to verify details like this.

George

Yet, you often see FCA PLatinums used in advertising sales, as a value added feature.
It's a reflection on the knowledge of the FCA Judges....

[WCH]

On a perhaps unrelated note, is it true that the Chinetti dealership's early (50s, 60s) records are unavailable to owners? If so, why?

[of2worlds]

It is a swamp out there when you dive into the old car marketplace. There are traps just waiting for even the knowledgeable buyer.

One buyer still thinks he purchased an original engine model; he did not. Another bought an alloy body convertible; it wasn't. Yet another owner knows the motor is not an original 'born with' example but claims that it is when offering the car for sale. One car has a vin that matches a rare model but the whole car has been 're-created' based on just the paperwork of that particular vin.
One car with a color change has long forgotten crash damage inflicted upon it less than a year after it was first registered.
Unless you can really understand and know the history of an 'old car' you are just looking for trouble when you jump blindly into the market.

Gone but not Forgotten>
Classiche offers a measure of confidence to the less knowledgeable buyer and a new source of revenue from 'product' that has long since gone out the door...
CH

[275GTBSaran]

Originally Posted by Napolis

Frankly I can't see having any value in Classiching a modern Ferrari. Some place a value on classiche certificates on historic Ferrari's but I don't.

I do attach a high value to what those who were there in the day have to say and what the metal says.

There are many experts who know a lot more than Classiche does and several collector's who do as well.

Jim,

Firstly thank you for starting this very relevant and important post.

While I agree that there may be experts are more knowledgable than the Classiche Department, the reality of the marketplace today is placing importance on Classiche (not that I agree with it completely). As Vintage Ferrari prices move ever higher, new buyers are coming in who know little about the market and rely on the Classiche Certificates. Today I will guess that about 30% of the Vintage Ferrari market is from buyers who are buying the cars as investments rather than anything else. So much like buyers get a certificate for buying an important Columbian Emerald worth USD 2-3 million, people are who are spending $3+m on a vintage Ferrari expect the same. I certainly will hesitate to buy a car which is not Classiche Certified although I am aware that the department is not flawless. For example Ferrari will give a Classiche Certificate even if the engine is not the original one but a correct replacement from the time 'I think it is called stamped block' which I believe is not right either. Although I think the Classiche department is needed and will add security for vintage Ferrari buyers I also think people like Massini, Mr Nye and other experts are absolutely critical in providing buyers and auction houses the correct information and history on all Ferrari's being offered today. Its a complicated topic and I look forward to hearing more comments from experienced collectors, expert restoration shops.

[DennisForza]

Originally Posted by ggjjr

In my opinion, many of the buyers of these classic Ferraris are buying them as works of art, or assessories. I have listened to many casual conversations during the Pebble week of (I assume) wealthy people contemplating buying one of these cars. It is evident from said conversations that they know next to nothing about these cars. Admitting that I, also, know next to nothing compared to many on this board.

George

One can enjoy and desire a great painting from the masters without being an artist or even taken a class on art history. I figure someone can enjoy the pleasure of a great car in the garage without being a race driver or even a gearhead. Like you said some of the most knowledgeable folks on the planet are here on F-Chat to share, and that can provide more value than those folks in the nice building in Italy.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by DennisForza

One can enjoy and desire a great painting from the masters without being an artist or even taken a class on art history. I figure someone can enjoy the pleasure of a great car in the garage without being a race driver or even a gearhead.

It's still important to know if the car you're buying is real.

There are IMO totaly fake cars that have classiche certificates.

0818 comes to mind.

I and others (LC) feel the car that Ferrari has classiched as 0818 is a fake. It's chassis and body were fabricated in the UK and the real 0818 (which is a very storied car) is with EH in Austria not in V's estate in Italy. I realise that unlike Coco EH lost in an Italian court but that does not change my opininon that the V 0818 is a fake and the EH car contains most of 0818's original chassis. EH bought the chassis from David Piper.

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All..../0818.275P.htm

This is the key:

66/apr/28 - fat. acc. in practice for TT Oulton Park

Piper acquired the remains and I believe sold the engine and other parts to the guys that "restored" the V 0818 but as the original chassis was really damaged sold the damaged original chassis to EH who also "restored" 0818.

Either way anyone who buys V's 0818 based on the classiche certificate without talking to EH, inspecting both cars, talking to Hoffer is IMO making a big mistake.

[ferraripete]

Originally Posted by RVL Saratoga

I wonder if Coco still owns the rights to the NART badge, cavallino included. I would think that an authentic NART car would be more valuable, regardless of what Classiche has to say about it.

Sort of like SCG P4/5CM: it's not a Ferrari, it's better.

he does.

[merstheman]

Originally Posted by GTE

This is his battle.


Funny thing is that now Chinetti is asking the court to deem his cars authentic. So he, in fact, asking the Court to provide the service he refuses to ask from Ferrari Classiche. This, of course, makes only sense of the legal costs are less than the costs of a Classiche certificate and when the market places more value in a courtruling on the authenticity of a car than on a Classiche certificate. Why would the court be more able to determine the authenticity of the car than Ferrari? Will the court, if they accept Chinetti's claim, make use of experts? And will we ever know which experts?

As I understood it, the precedent set if he wins this suit means that future sale price of cars (that he may or may not own) will be affected, because I guess he is trying to prove that a Classiche certificate is essential for a seller to get as much profit as they can out of the sale of a unique Ferrari. The potential profit of these certificate-less sales might offset the money he's paying to sue Ferrari..

I hope this made sense, I'm not in the best writing mood today...

[deichenb]

Originally Posted by f308jack

I tend to agree with that, but it also doesn't rule out any risks of obtaining flawed advice. Note, I am NOT making any statement about MM with this, I think I would trust his advice above anyone elses, just saying that wherever large sums of money change hands, minds get bent.

Just as a comparison, the FCA Gold Standard (I think it is called that?) dictates a car should have its' original engine. I know for a fact that a car has a Gold FCA certificate, whilst it doesn't have the original engine. So, what does an FCA certification/qualification then mean?

A Ferrari can be awarded and FCA Silver, Gold, or Platinum with a non-original engine. The engine number should be checked as part of the judging process - even though it often is not checked in the more modern cars, as mentioned above.

If the engine number does not match the chassis number there is a deduction, but the car is not disqualified from receiving an award. If the engine is of the wrong type there is a substantial deduction, and it would be extremely tough to be awarded a Platinum.

I do not know if there is a deduction for a "Classiche" stamp on a replacement block. I do know that there is no 'bonus' nor grace given to cars with Classiche certification.

I think it would be extraordinarily challenging for a car with a non-original engine, Classiche certification or not, to receive a Major Award at a National FCA event.

Personally, I would rather own a multiple FCA-Platinum award/Major Award car than a Classiche car that has not been vetted at FCA concours. I believe the depth of knowledge in the FCA regarding the originality and authenticity of the cars, especially Enzo-era cars, would be difficult to top.

Forza,
David