Why do F1 tires have such a high profile?

...Also they would have to completely and totally redesign the suspension as the current tires absorb so much and the little sidewalks absorb so little. This has been discussed before.

 

I remember reading the comments of an tire engineer (Bridgestone, IIRC, so some time ago) mentioning how going with a super low profile tire would result in g-loads not sustainable by the driver (!). Seems to be a concern if Michelin wants to be able to go this route and have tested low-profile tires.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the big diameter "wagon wheels" but wouldn't mind seeing 15" wheels allowed again like in the early '80s; this is 1982:
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Incorrect. If you study the overlays of team mates you will clearly see their different braking / throttle positions into the same corner. A larger braking zone increases the chances of a pass due to meters per second and the car length.

 

Would that also make the braking points more forgiving, thereby reducing the frequency of drivers missing the braking point and not making the apex (or the corner entirely)?

All the best,
Andrew.

 

That's what I was thinking. They need to make the racing more prone to human error and not so dependent on mechanical problems to create change in position. Having small room for error by having narrower windows to brake would be better.

 

It was either during the Mk 2 or Mk 3 generation of the VW GTI and I believe it was R&T that wrote how in Europe the cars came with 14" rims but for show and for higher profit margins they were sold in the US with 15" wheels. And the handling was worse with the bigger rims. This trend of profit taking has led us to the 19s and 20s. And while Porsche was clawing in the money selling bigger rims, their race cars were staying with 18s. What I loved about my old 308 was that it had four 14" rims, each wheel and tire of the same size. Hence a real world spare you could use at the same speed as the other tires. When I bought a 95 993 it came stock with 16s...and 17s were the option. Like a fool I had to have the "big" wheels and traded up. Real world driving performance went down...and with LA roads in bad condition even back then, I soon paid the price of the low profile 17s. On the other hand, the 16s actually made the car far nicer to drive...and even allowed the car to be more tossable in the canyons I used to run on. In f1, going to a 15 would probably cause as many issues as it might cure. I'd rather see street cars going back to the 14s and 15s.

 

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware that even the disc size was imposed in F1. I really never bothered to read the F1 technical regulations, in all honesty.
So, inboard brakes are out of the question now. They were common in the past to reduce unsprung weight. It makes you wonder what isn't imposed in F1 !

 

Don't worry, you are not the only one to have been fooled by the attraction of bigger wheels on a Porsche. I too make that mistake and found low profile tyres really uncomfortable, with no real advantage.

 

If drivers had such a large differential in their braking in F1 as you are suggesting, then shorter braking zones or not due to carbon brakes, we would still see far more overtaking under braking than we do.

Feel free to show the telemetry readouts between drivers that show the large differential you claim exists - I suspect the reality is, whilst there will be a differential, it is not as great as you suggest.

 

Steel brakes? Really?

 

There is a regulation in the rules that prevents rims larger than 13" in diameter. This regulation was originally put in place to limit braking performance.
Sports cars use absurdly large wheels in order to put as big a brake system inside as possible, even at the cost of worse traction ! Sports cars desire stopping more than going around turns!

The best all round performing tires are probably in the 18"-19" category. The sidewalls are tal enough to give a bit on bumps and pot holes, yet short enough that control is maintained over the contact patch. larger wheels have problems in contact patch performance, smaller sizes have problems in brake performance.

 

Yes, low profiles can reduce body roll and give a stiffer set up, but this is not ideal all the time. On courses which require clipping curbs or lots of mechanical grip or play, a low profile tire or higher pressure can upset the car. Also, beefier rear tires help get the power down and some flex can help keep them from spinning. The 360 Challenge Stradale has 19 inch wheels which look nice, but the real Challenge cars have 18s. And you can change grip and set up by just changing tire pressure or operating temp. Or something like that

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Someone at Williams said they'd get steel to be as good as CF. This was a while ago, early 2000's....back when FIA was looking at steel as a cost savings. Williams F1 also said they'd spend a lot of money getting them to perform well, so FIA dropped it.

 

So what you are saying is the biggest advantage of carbon rotors now is: reducing unsprung weight over iron? And not shorter braking distance?

 

A McLaren dealer told me carbons are heavier than steel as well. Ultimately I believe they are a sales gimmick for bragging rights and unnecessary on road cars. For F1 they must be an advantage for performance.

 

I believe carbon discs work better in extreme heat than steel discs, hence better performance and less fading perhaps? But carbon discs are less good cold apparently. I am not convinced there is a benefit on a road car.
You could say that almost anything allowing you to drive above the legal speed limit is sale gimmick for bragging rights and unnecessary on a road car .
But we are sure glad it's there !!!

 

bump.....

This is all based IF the sport wants them.

Pirelli prepared to offer 18-inch wheels and 'smart tyres' in F1 https://www.racefans.net/2018/06/01/pirelli-18-inch-smart-tyre-f1/ …

 

Tires are not any part of F1s fundamental problems. Changing these will have massive engineering consequences and cost for no improvement in the show.

 

The low profile street tires on your modern Ferrari are radials. F1 tires are not.

They are much more similar to bias-ply construction and have extremely stiff sidewalls.

Someone suggested that they act as a suspension. That’s not accurate. The sidewalls are extremely stiff; nithng like a street car.

Matt

 

F1 tires are radials and have been for a long time. Radial simply means the support structures compose a straight line from the axis to the edge. In a bias ply tire, the support structures are at 45 degree angles or thereabouts. In a radial tire, the sidewall and the tread can act as semi independent units. Bias ply not at all.

Slip angles on a bias ply tire on a modern F1 car would be frightening to say the least. It would be like racing on caster wheels.

Tires very much are a part of the suspension. Ferrari was using C02 and blown axles and fancy hubcaps back during Alonso's first stint at McLaren...up til the FIA banned them. C02 has a predictable rate of high heat transfer, and Ferrari was using it to more reliably transfer heat to the wheel which they in turn used fancy hubcaps and blown axles to keep the tire temps even...it's a lot easier tuning for a known range than an unknown one.

Beyond that, F1 tire sidewalls have a predictable rate of deformation. They are stiff, that's for sure. They have to be. Ever hit a decreasing radius corner at 200 MPH in your Lexus, slow to 75 MPH and then be at 200 MPH four seconds later?

 

From the F1 site:

“Despite some genuine technical crossover, race tyres and road tyres are at best distant cousins. An ordinary car tyre is made with heavy steel-belted radial plies and designed for durability - typically a life of 16,000 kilometres or more (10,000 miles). The current Formula 1 tyres are designed to last for anything between 60 and 120 kilometres depending on the compound - and like everything else on an F1 car, are lightweight and strong in construction. They have an underlying nylon and polyester structure in a complicated weave pattern designed to withstand far larger forces than road car tyres.”

Bias doesn’t necessarily mean 45 degrees.

Matt

 

Your post has nothing to do with anything that I wrote.

 

My posts usually don’t.

Matt

 

to you naysayers, no one is asking for 20"+ wheels...

 

Pirelli said they’re open to 18” like the lemans and formula E ones. Makes sense