USA FERRARI F40 | Page 161 | FerrariChat

USA FERRARI F40

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by joe sackey, Jul 6, 2007.

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  1. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    No question about that.
     
  2. F40 LeMans

    F40 LeMans Formula Junior

    Nov 23, 2009
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    #4002 F40 LeMans, May 19, 2016
    Last edited: May 19, 2016
    Max,

    I also spent a lot of time behind the argument. I spent time reading mags and road test with patience and attention, asking to informed people, considering the variable of the opinions and real facts. The conclusion was that the engine with catalyst system produced less than 480 hp or about 480 hp, whatever it is, US or ROW. Many here were saying that the US engine unit was further developed with expensive work to pass US certification adding power at the same time when both US cars and ROW cars tested with catalysts fitted were always slower than cars without cats, with no notable difference. These catalyzed engines were built with different parameters than the non catalyzed engines. Distribution timing and boost setting were little bit different to contrast evidently the flow resistence of the catalysts, the power delivery and the lower octane gasoline admitted. Owner manuals show many of these differences in the engine specs. Even the ECUs were different in the map as I know. ECUs for catalyzed engines has lambda sensors and many other sensors with controlled parameters in it. Ferrari has 3 ECU part number for the F40, unfortunately no info about the difference on both ECUs used on the catalyzed units, just the part number but as said no notable difference in power by test numbers. The engine without catalyst system fitted on the first 450 cars produced was much powerful, it had no such constraints, it was strangely claimed to be the unit delivering initially 478 hp but it was constantly developed after the presentation of the car in July 1987 till the production in the 1988. I guess the factory developed subsequently new ECUs and distribution timing setting before the definitive delivery of the production, my opinion forgetting what you read around, maybe some of these were factory secrets, but that unit was THE ONE able to produce definitely more than 500 hp till peaks of 515 hp.

    That with no extra frills.
     
  3. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #4003 joe sackey, May 19, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  4. MaxMcQueen

    MaxMcQueen Karting

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    #4004 MaxMcQueen, May 24, 2016
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
    The Classiche Director for Ferrari North America claimed that USA F40s are rated "at or above 500 bhp" @ 7000 rpm. This does not means that spec could be fast as the Euro car even rated the same power. Could be a question of power & torque curves.
     
  5. F40 LeMans

    F40 LeMans Formula Junior

    Nov 23, 2009
    823
    #4005 F40 LeMans, May 24, 2016
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
    The fact was.

    Many professional engine dynos were showing lower results. Carobu tested many engines on their engine dyno and THEY CLAIMED on their pages that THE AVERAGE OF THEIR RESULTS were constantly around 470 hp. An Fchatter rebuilt his engine in stock form with the result of 476 hp. That seems no one close to 500 hp. I think is not easy to "doubt" the result of professional engine dynos. We all knows that the accurancy of engine dyno is not the result of a chassis dyno... The engine dyno is a tool which acts "directly" on the engine calculating its forces and produce more accurate figures than tools that must calculate forces through the wheels and the transmission.

    Anyway I agree, could not be a question of absolute numbers but could be the product of different curves. Even if these US spec engines were really able to produce over 500 hp, even that was the case, the fact was that their curves produced lower results at same RPMs than the European non cat version.

    Should be understood why that discrepancy from engine dynos to Classiche Director's claim. Joe had said that he would have asked him... but still there is darkness behind that claim.
     
  6. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    I asked John Amette immediately I suggested I would, and its up to him to respond.

    Believe me, I have the e-mail filed away.

    Feel free to contact him direct (his contact is a matter of public record) in your quest to get to the bottom of this.

    Meanwhile, with all due respect, I humbly suggest that most people who own F40s simply do not care. I recently sold my personal F40 to an Indy car-winning race driver, and not once did the issue of power come up. I just realized this is also true of all @ 30 F40s I have placed over the years, and in fact the case with every F40 owner I have ever spoken to, which must total hundreds of people. Not once has the power discussion come up. Just sayin', it ain't always about the numbers....

    That said, it would be nice to get to the bottom of this, but, don't hold your breath!
     
  7. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #4007 joe sackey, May 24, 2016
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  8. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #4008 joe sackey, May 24, 2016
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  9. F40 LeMans

    F40 LeMans Formula Junior

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    #4009 F40 LeMans, May 24, 2016
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
    This is all comprensible infact when a car is running correctly people usually don't care about numbers. Also my father is one of these till I said him, take a look at these engine, it seems aren't just 478 hp behind us! The thing was always suspicious by journalists during my readings as Mark Hales in a recent video. Anyway many owners put their cars on the rollers because evidently a good engine is always a pleasure for we all. The argument was just to point out a question that mainly was confused by the factory: a faster version with lower power claimed than a powerful one. But nothing that will change our lives because yes, at the wheel the numbers are just numbers! Just because was something unique!
     
  10. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Sure.

    I think a good venue for all this is the Acceleration/Performance thread.
     
  11. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #4011 joe sackey, Jun 8, 2016
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  12. damian in nj

    damian in nj Formula Junior
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    Aug 24, 2009
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    Gordon Murray, of McLaren F1 fame has said "the F40 by comparison was engineered like a kit car. Someone at the time asked me whether we were building a rival to the F40, and I replied, 'No, because I can't find anyone who can weld that badly!'"

    (This from a story on the McLaren F1 Celebration in London, reported in the May issue of Thoroughbred & Classic Cars).

    I own neither, just thought this would be interesting to report!
     
  13. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    The old-school welded chassis is part of the F40's charm.
     
  14. stocky

    stocky Formula Junior

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    #4014 stocky, Jul 6, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The ex Rod Stewart F40 that resides in the North West of the UK has had some Michelotto style parts fitted to it. Pic by @gtcarschester on Twitter.
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  15. stocky

    stocky Formula Junior

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    #4015 stocky, Jul 6, 2016
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  16. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #4016 joe sackey, Jul 26, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This is perhaps the best F40 I have ever handled, I sold it before in the past, have driven it a number of times, so I know it very well, its provenance speaks for itself:

    * Featured in Forza magazine
    * First Place in Class FCA National Concours in (winning Platinum the Supercar Class)
    * First Place in Class at Cavallino (winning Platinum in theSupercar Class)
    * Best in Show at FCA Reading PA Concours (winning Platinum)
    * Approx. 3,500 miles
    * Classiche Certification
    * Original window sticker
    * All original tools & books
    * 3-piece Schedoni F40 luggage with chassis number inscribed (rather than owner’s name)
    * Fully serviced & un-modified from new
    * Full set of the original tires
    * "Platinum level" condition both interior and out
    * Extra factory red Nomex!

    If you're looking for an F40 that is very special, contact me offline please, priced fairly.
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  17. roma1280

    roma1280 F1 Rookie
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    #4017 roma1280, Jul 26, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2016
    I think Jeremy Clarkson famously stated it had been "welded by apes".
    Say what you like, it is one of the greatest cars of all time.
     
  18. Red Sled

    Red Sled Formula Junior

    Another Clarkson line springs to mind: "the panel gaps are so big you can enter the car without opening the door"

    Totally agree - the car may be crude engineering but the results are mind blowing. Back from an evening blast and still buzzing an hour later.

    On the subject of hp, it is very easy to overboost the turbos to some extent via the wastegate and to a much larger extent by adjusting the Amal valve which controls the input air pressure to the wastegate. I have yet to find definitive boost curves for the F40. So, depending on who has fiddled with these in the past, easy to get 40-50hp or more difference between cars.
     
  19. roma1280

    roma1280 F1 Rookie
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    Yes that was a great one too, I remember that.
     
  20. roma1280

    roma1280 F1 Rookie
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    Joe the car looks incredible, just like my old car (sigh). Someone please buy it!!
     
  21. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Both the GTO and F40 have uneven panel-gaps from side-to-side rom the factory.

    Character.
     
  22. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm honored to be associated with it.
     
  23. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #4023 joe sackey, Jul 28, 2016
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  24. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    thanks for posting Joe, I was curious about this car (mentioned in the thread about Carl's passing elsewhere on Fchat). do you know anything else about the ownership chain on this car? IIRC Carl bought it and held on to it for a very long time, but I don't know if he bought it new, or when it changed hands since.
     
  25. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Its the 22nd USA F40 built, all I have in my notes is "Carl Haas", and I'm not certain who the car is being consigned by.

    At 557-miles, I think it might establish a new benchmark for these, on which case F40 owners will be pleased.
     

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