....and now for the boring bit..... so when this 355 thats as fast or faster than an F40 is done...what are you going to do about it's heavier chassis, smaller tyres and inferior brakes when compared to said F40. When you've made it go, stop and steer like an F40, what will it owe you....just curious..... and can you bring it to the track day or not?
If you have ever driven a f40 and l have you will know they drive like a pig unless you are on a track.The object of this poject was to accieve a ferrari 355 drive which is very comfortable but able to have the performance to outdrag most cars .Rpm is the main killer of valvetrain ask any engine builder.These engines are good they just need 2 little turbos to give them a push . Ferrari said the weak link would be the plastic manifold not the engine .They recomended no more than 10 pounds for reliability.Nothing to do with the internals of the engine which you have to maintain anyway.The project has cost me a cool 42000 aus dollars and l handed it over with a big smile on my face.l love ferraris they just need to go faster. If l wanted to go faster to upgrade my 355spyder l would have to outlay over 100000k .This way l have money left in my pocket and l am going faster in a ferrari.That noise of a 355 has not changed it just happens quicker
ton, I have to say that September 26th at Calder sounds like an awesome opportunity for you to have a serious play withe the car! If you're going, I will certainly be there, would love to the little red 355 blasting onto the front straight in a haze of tyre smoke.
I was quite interested in the idea until two things were said....you respect sandro's opinion on something, and an F40 is a pig to drive on the road. Now it just sounds like a wank again. They say that a very important thing is to know when to stop talking.
I don't own a Ferrari, and for that matter probably never will. You see, on a motoring journalist's salary this is not something you could ever achieve. Yes, I am a motoring journalist, one of those guys who drives cars for a living and then tells the story. And yes, there is such a thing as 'journalistic licence', however I must be one of those unusual journalists who is only prepared to only tell the story how it is irrespective of potential ridicule. It would appear that you, on the other hand, consider that your opinion alone should not be questioned. Ton had an opinion and you simply flamed it. This is not 'in my opinion', what forums are all about. Yes, we all have opinions and should be allowed to say what we want without ridicule. Indeed, that Sandro whom I dont know may not be what you want him to be, does that make ton a lesser person for accepting his comments? Given that ton is, as far as I am aware, the only person in this country to have taken the punt and had his 355 turbocharged, some credence must be offered. The task was completed by one of the best turbo specialists in the country and now ton has a vehicle that I believe would be the envy of many Ferrari owners - traditionalists or not.
The other thing that interests me about this project...what did the insurance company say when they got your call about the modifications....did they turn nasty or are they ok about it? Oh yeah, and Ton, I have driven several F40's that I have serviced over the years. I don't think they drive like pigs at all. But they are very sensitive to tyre age / type / condition / pressure and wheel alignment etc, but then most supercars are.
I'm not having a go at Ton, really, but more that if he takes the word of someone like sandro, THEN I start to doubt the story...doesn't that make sense? I've had no dealings with Ton, so i believe that what he says is true, but if he's quoting sandro, then i DON'T believe what he says. Hope that makes sense. I've driven an F40 on the road for about 20,000kms. It is as docile a car as I've ever driven, although the clutch is heavy. I drove it when it was new, and for 2 years after. If anyone drives one and describes it as a pig, then sorry, there was something wrong with the car...FULL STOP. It's not an opinion, it's just fact. They're a great car to drive on the road and on the track.
Looks like they were run in the same gear on the left graph, but different gears on the right, which makes it difficult, but not impossible, to compare. The fact that the red line in the RHS graph shows virtually the same power as the blue line until about 100mph IN A HIGHER GEAR is pretty damn impressive...if i'm reading it right. I'm assuming all this, as, if the redline is reduced with the turbo, yet it gets to a higher roller speed, then it would have to be in a higher gear, wouldn't it? I'm always concerned about fragile gearboxes with these cars. What do you guys reckon would all this added torque be doing to the relibility of the gear box?
l have been doing skids and burnouts and running it down the quarter mile since 1997 on the same gearbox and clutch and for me its been no problems . If you don't believe me ask piero service manager at ferrari melbourne.Tell him tony sent you. They service the car.Yes you are reading the graph correct.I love quarter mile and that is why when we hire the track to test our 6.19et at 229mph doorslammer l always take our personal car for some fun.
More info please, pics too. I used to drive a 1949 Anglia with a blown/injected 454 Chev in what they called A/Gas many years ago. Sounds like things haven't changed too much, just FASTER with more safety nowdays.
That's what it looks like and it is normal. If you look at the earlier post at the graph that says Map, that is the boost. It hit's 6 psi at about 4700 and the wastegate opens, then the bostt climbs slowly to 7psi by the end on the run. There is no boost at 2000 where the run begins, so the lines should match. At 3500 the boost is 2.5 psi so you should see that, but clearly the runs where on different days so that could be it, also the exhaust and intake tracks are longer and more restricted, so it could easily take 2.5 psi of boost to get the engine back up the where it started from. The from 3500 to 4700 the boost shoots up to 6 psi with the turbo engine making gobs more hp above 4200. The rule of thumb is that turbos start to work in the top 1/3 -1/5 of the the engines redline and this a perfect example. I compared the curve for my supercharged 308 engine which makes almost 10 psi at 2000 rpm and it's making something like 75-100 hp more than the tt355 engine up to like 4000 rpm, then the turbos come on and the tt catches me at 5000 and puts 25 hp on me by the end of the run....and as they turn up the boost that 25 is probably going to turn into the same 75-100 advantage that I had down low.
here we are again, some guy has done a great job in twin turbo charging a 355 IMO, and some just want to slag the conversion,wow! but yet cant show us how they have done to there perfect conversions.........mind you this is f chat. What does it matter if the 355 is heavier, and i dont think that a guy that spends multithousands on a conversion like this will not upgrade the brakes, or even the suspension. I have never driven an f40 but have you seen Martain brundels comments on driving the f40 in the streets in the dvd.
Charlie, First off, Aircon is bagging the mechanics that are being quoted as he has had problems with these guys in the past, he has OWNED an F40, races his 355CH and last but by no means the least, Brundle is a ****. I think these guys have a great TT for the 355 but some things don't sound right by Ferrari standards, like a clutch surviving since 97 doing all those burnouts, possible but highly improbable, that's not what they were built for. I'm sure if these guys turn up at Calder and deliver the goods then Aircon will be seriously thinking of doing this as well John
Charlie, next to James Allen though he seems like a knowledgable person Have you signed the "get rid of James Allen " petition on a UK site somewhere, thought I was the only git who wanted Murray back btw I'm all for TT conversions like this but personally I think if you have to turbo it then you've got the wrong motor although I can see the economic sense of this one, he ain't gonna sell it so who cares what the resale is.
I saw the car in question and met Tony, the owner. He liked me a lot...errr...well.....that's another story. Anyway, Simon Gishus was also there. He's from nizpro and did the conversion. It looks a lot better and neater in person. The results are, as shown in the graphs, quite astounding. Apparently is still sounds like a 355, which, as we all know, is pretty hard to beat. Sadly, it wasn't running as the fuel pump seems to have **** itself, or a relay or something. There's boost from 2000rpm which explains those power curves. My only "concern" is the position of those intercoolers. Seeing them with the wheels in place shows very little space, and I know the paint in there takes a real beating, so I can't imagine what's going to happen to those intercoolers. Since my car already has MoTec, this would be a breeze to install with my car. Simon told me some of the performance specs. Hard to see a real downside to it....until something breaks. Nothing has ever broken on my car, but I still consider Ferraris fragile. Maybe it's time to change my opinion on that. Time will tell.
I think boost is the gentlest way to up the power. I can't speak to a 355, but the 308 has held up great. I'm 120% over stock hp/torque and very rough with it...although since I don't run it at the track, it does not get a lot of sustained high power/high rpm use. I can't believe they would have made the 355 any weaker. It shouldn't be too hard to put louvered vents in front of them. I have my heat exchanges dumping into the front wheel wells and the vents are the next thing on my to-do list.
the intercoolers are been covered by the inner guard that has been cut but are not ready .If you are worried about the engine being fragile koning make a kit .780hp with the same engine as every 355 owner has.The pistons are changed to lower the comp because it runs 2bar of boost and manifold because of the boost in the manifold all for 80000 dollars . The problem with the car was a loose crank trigger senser. The injecters are been drilled and flowed as we speak .the car is back at nizpro and at 9pounds it is booked to dyno on thursday.
That's great Ton...9 lbs should take it over 520 BHP surely. I'd think you'll be getting close to clutch slippage around there, but that's an easy fix. Plenty of upgrades available for that. Hope to see you out at that track day.....
I remember years ago, one of dad's tenants was a turbo conversion guy. He explained to me that doing a turbo conversion puts less stress on an engine that being N/a due to so much more power being available at much lower revs. Imagine having a lazy 355 engine. It would have to last forever, since it's designed for 8500rpm. (all turns to rubbish if the thing is constantly thrashed, of course) Just imagine, overtaking on the highway staying in 6th...powering past a tram in 4th...all these things one or two gears higher that before. Is that logical, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
I used to road race a motorcycle with almost exactly the same bore/stroke as my 308 (and similar to a 355). It redlined at 9000 and make peak hp 8000. I found that when I shifted at or near 9000, the engine would live for 2 weekends which was a total of about 200 minutes on the track. If I shifted at 7500-8000 with an occational run to 9000 to make a pass or something, it would live all season, so 10 weekends or 1000 track minutes. Rpm is bad for engine life, but very fun. Turbos are absolutely great at the track because you add power without having to add rpm and since you're always in the top 1/2 or the rpm band the power is always there. But they do not add power at low rpm, the graphs show no increase at all untill 4200 rpm even though there some boost there, it looks like the extra plubming is eating gain there could be. So on the street you will still need to down shift and get it spinning to make a pass. It also looks like the turbo may be a bit undersized too, the boost is starting to build eariler than I would expect to see it and the run all stop very early , but I could be wrong there, it could be a great turbo and they choose to shut down early and give up 50hp and then turn the boost up higher to get it back. Ferraris eat a lot of air for some reason, pretty big cams is my guess. On my 308, both times I ordered superchargers, the supercharger makers both told me the one I ordered was way to big for a 3 liter and it would be spinning way to slow. But in fact I ended up spinning the first one 20% over it's redline (the maker told me they had a couple racers doing that and it's been fine) and the new one is just over at 15200 vs 15000 rated and I am still a little short or my boost goal. My supercharged engine drives exactly the way one describe, I have pretty much forgotten what down shifting is for. At 3000 rpm I'm at something like 180rwhp where a 355 or tt355 is at 100, big difference. Down shifting into 3rd on the highway at 65mph spins the tires. Turbos shine up top and are a bit gentler because they need a fraction of a second to spool, superchargers shine at low to middle rpm and provide instant, linear boost under any conditions.
A lot of it is to do with boost management. Ton...what happens with your overboost...is it simply dumped to atmosphere and wasted (very crude and inefficient in my opinion, but the simplest for installation/management reasons), or is it recirculated. if so, where to....the back of the throttles, the impellor, the compressor, into the intercoolers for extra cooling??? There are many options and all have pro's and con's. With a good re-circ installation, the car would be a dream to drive in traffic, if it's all boost and dump it'll be a bit like an 80's 4 speed Porsche 930. ....goes like a rocket but not a sweet drive.
So i was right then? I think it's got more power from 2000rpm btw. Remember the runs were done in different gears (on the graph on the rhs) but the same gear in the graph on the left, so at the same road speed, which shows the same HP, the revs would have actually been much lower with the conversion done, as I see it. I guess this is demonstrated on the graph on the left best, even though it's an early graph.
