Some ignition system confusion on my newly acquired 1975 308gt4 | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Some ignition system confusion on my newly acquired 1975 308gt4

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by vespam5, Sep 13, 2017.

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  1. vespam5

    vespam5 Rookie

    Jan 22, 2017
    25
    #26 vespam5, Sep 22, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
    I'm excited because I have a package from Pertronix due to arrive today with a new Ignitor II setup and some new coils. I got a head start on the job by rebuilding the 1-4 distributor which will now be my master, so it has new internals, hoping this along with the breakerless points upgrade improves my running condition but I'm not entirely convinced it will...

    Because it runs so strangely, I'd like to verify the cams are in the correct positions, though I did the timing belt myself not long ago and I was careful to mark everything, there is always a chance that a cam was a tooth off prior to me replacing the belts and that I copied the problem right over to the new belts. Seems like the only way to do this is to pull both cam covers off. Seems like the rear 1-4 cover is fairly easy, will 5-8 cover come off with engine in car? Seems like the cam cover studs might prevent this from happening. I'd kill for some external cam timing marks right now haha.

    With engine at TDC (PM1-4), I do see my intake cam 1-4 timing mark lined up with the cam cap mark currently (though oil cap), but that does not mean the other 3 cams are.......

    Oh and silly (but not so silly) question regarding ignition timing marks on flywheel:
    My flywheel is marked as such :AF7º I, PM1-4 I, I 3º (see pic below)

    Yet most pictures online show the actual timing mark "I" to the left of the "PM1-4" like this: " I PM1-4 "

    Is it safe to assume there was variances in the way they stamped these flywheels and my marks are simply stamped to the RIGHT of the designation? Also what is the " I 3º " mark to the right? I don't see it on any factory manual.

    My flywheel:
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  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,153
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    It's actually " I -3º " = 3 deg ATDC

    It's the idle timing mark when the R2 points are working -- see page O7 in the 308GT4 WSM.

    I think there are also examples of " PM I 1-4 " out there.
     
  3. vespam5

    vespam5 Rookie

    Jan 22, 2017
    25
    Thanks Steve, my concern in regard to the marks was that I should be using the mark to the far left of PM1-4, etc. I feel better now that I verified PM1-4 was actual TDC by removing spark plug 1 and sticking a screwdriver down onto the piston, sanity check. I like to check timing marks vs actual TDC with a dial indicator on the Alfa and Porsche engines I build but I do not currently have a dial indicator adaptor with a long enough neck to reach all the way down into a 308.
     
  4. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,439
    socal
    I think you will surprised at how well it does work! Back in the 80's I owned a 78gts carb car. We did not have pertronix it was someone else's optical triggers. I can't remember the set-up but I seem to think it was 1 master one slave dizzy. It worked perfectly for many years until I sold that car! I did have to match and correct the dizzy timing curve on an old relic SUN dizzy machine. Dizzy timing curve is still important to good running with new triggers. I was apprenticing with Lyle Tanner's chief mechanic at the time. While having some mechanic experience I was not ferrari mechanic. He asked me how I would get those dizzy bearings off the relatively delicate shaft. Another apprentice had a complex answer involving pullers and press. I confidently said "judicious use of a hammer and that bench vise". The chief handed me the shaft and said to the other apprentice, "you watch and learn how he does it." I scored some points that day...got my Ferrari mechanic merit badge.
     
  5. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,439
    socal

    While obviously crooked and cringe worthy to kludge such a contraption it can and does work.

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  6. vespam5

    vespam5 Rookie

    Jan 22, 2017
    25
    OK, I got Pertronix in. I had some problems wrapping my head around how to do the initial setup in terms of where I should physically point the distributor rotor but after repositioning the rotor a few times, I got the car to start and run, WOW! much smoother and easier to start. Just one issue: When putting my timing (picking up off #1), the timing marks are nowhere to be found, I know the pertronix does not care where is it is picking up off of, but It'd be nice to get it correct so that I can time this thing with the light correctly, at this point is it a matter of turning the rotor 180º degrees?

    Thanks
     
  7. vespam5

    vespam5 Rookie

    Jan 22, 2017
    25
    Figured this out, went back to basics. Set engine to PM1-4, made sure bank 1-4 cam lobes were facing outward, set 1-4 distributor rotor to notch on distributor, then turned motor to PM5-8, verified rotor was pointing to notch on 5-8 distributor . Cranked engine, boom started up and seemed to run great, crisp revving, nice and smooth. I killed engine to go back and double check everything is tight, and then went for a test drive. Was surprised that though it runs well maybe up to 3000 RPM, after that the engine falls on its face, stutters, pops, backfires in muffler, etc. I brought her back in to check timing, still sitting at about 1000 RPM at 7º advance idling nicely. I went and manually revved engine while watching timing, and that is were I think there might be a problem, I'm not seeing max advance at higher RPMs, the distributor definitely advances but I can't seem to get it to the 34 mark, I don't even think I'm seeing the AF 16 mark, strange because I just rebuilt the distributor with a new rebuild kit from Superformance...

    Still running NGK BPR6EIX by the way.

    Beyond this, I know my carbs need attention, but I'm trying to do incremental improvements so I can appreciate the gains rather than do everything at once, advice appreciated.

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  8. vespam5

    vespam5 Rookie

    Jan 22, 2017
    25
    I'm thinking I overlooked the orientation of the new weights/springs when I replaced them in my distributor, can't seem to find a tutorial online.
     
  9. vespam5

    vespam5 Rookie

    Jan 22, 2017
    25
    I ended up putting the original distributor weights back in and the acceleration and advance is much better now. I am still seeing some hesitation during acceleration, and a couple of "lean pops" coming from the carbs but I made an interesting observation while test driving: every time I hear a pop from the carbs, the tach needle dips as if I'm losing my tach signal for a split second, I'm wondering if the Pertronix is skipping a beat or if perhaps I'm having coil power issues. All my connections are very well done so I do not think it is an install issue. I know on some American V-8 applications, the Pertronix do not work well with tachometers but I haven't found any information like this on Ferrari application.
     
  10. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,153
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    That is a clue as the tach signal IS the switching coil primary signal of one of the coils.

    Have you checked/improved the riveted connections between the tops of fuses #1, #2, and #3? Adding a "higher power" ignition system stresses this already weak point even more. Still could be an issue with the Pertronix, but improving those fuseblock connections is a must regardless IMO.
     
  11. vespam5

    vespam5 Rookie

    Jan 22, 2017
    25
    Thanks for the input Steve. I went and checked the fuses, they seemed clean and un-corroded but I got in there anyway and tightened up the fuses then gave each spade connector a wiggle. It didn't help much so I went and removed the distributor again and found that one of the Pertronix units had loosened up. I went and used a small bit of Loctite blue to help prevent this and the car started right up and is now running better than ever. Huge improvement in acceleration and smoothness. I'm still getting a little hesitation and minor "lean pops" but I'm pretty sure this is due to the very tired carbs which leak a bit and probably need to go up one size idle jet. Thanks!
     
  12. vespam5

    vespam5 Rookie

    Jan 22, 2017
    25

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