Oil burning in F1 | FerrariChat

Oil burning in F1

Discussion in 'F1' started by ChrisW1, Oct 13, 2017.

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  1. ChrisW1

    ChrisW1 Formula 3

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    #1 ChrisW1, Oct 13, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
    Over the past few days RBR and McLaren have (again) called on the FIA to stop the oil burning in F1.

    When I was in Maranello last month for the 70th year anniversary I spoke to someone from the Ferrari F1 engine team. It was after midnight and he was surprisingly open about some topics including using oil burning for gaining HP.

    I’m not the greatest expert on engine technology and perhaps some people here can comment on how realistic this guys statements were.

    The guy mentioned that:

    • the rules describe that there should be a connection between the inside of the engine (‘crank shaft area’) and the intake channel. In case of over pressure within the engine block, the air from the engine can be disposed off in the intake channel instead of it being emitted in the open air.
    • this connection is now exploited by sucking in oil from the engine into the air intake channel where the oil mixes with air and gasoline. It sounds like they are making a sort of carburator from this system, perhaps by placing the beginning of the connection underneath the top of the oil level (thus in the fluid itself instead of in the airspace above it), but that is just my own interpretation and the guy did not mention in more detail how it works.
    • this oil burning could yield 60 to 90hp, which is enormous in relative terms when compared to the power of the engine without this oil burning. It is also much more than what can be sustained during a full race distance with 1.2liters maximum oil consumption per 100 km (now max 0.9 liters per 100 km). This suggests to me that they can regulate the flow of oil, which technologically would not be too difficult … but how can they do this without very clearly violating the rules which state that you cannot burn oil with the purpose of realizing performance gains? I assume that they can significantly increase the oil consumption to a level that is way above 1.2 liters per 100 km for short durations such as in qualifying or when they are on a part of the track where additional performance brings the most benefit (or in part of the race where it can bring most benefit such as during overtaking or defending).
    • a few years ago Ferrari was too strict and conservative in interpreting the rules. Mercedes and RBR showed them that in F1 you should act differently if you want to win and now they are much more creative when it comes to interpreting the rules and exploring the limits of what is allowed.


    Even though Ferrari is using it (as well), I still would like to see oil burning banned. Not only because I think that it clearly goes against the rules but also because I suspect that Mercedes is still better at it than Ferrari based on the qualifying boost that Mercedes has :) I also suspect that Mercedes (and Ferrari) exploit the oil burning tricks more with their own cars than with the customers of their engines which helps to create a way too big gap between the front runners and the rest of the field.

    Can’t the FIA kill the oil burning completely and also directly by banning any form of connection between compartments of the engine that contain oil and the air intake channel? The engines do not ‘burn’ the oil for lubrication purposes so the engine manufacturers do not need time to adapt their engines. The engines and fuel limit rules where also designed to let them run without using oil as fuel so I’m sure that all engines also work perfectly if you cut off the illegal oil supply.

    If the engine compartments need a relieve or intake valve to handle pressure fluctuations and you want to make sure that oil fumes are not directly emitted in the air, I assume that you could always put some kind of filter in the valve. The amount of oil emitted would also be negligible. These engines run only up to 11000 rpm. There is no reason for these engines to consume more than a tiny amount of oil over a race distance with the majority of that tiny amount probably even being lost via the pistons (although that should also be negligible).
     
    daytona355 likes this.
  2. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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  3. ChrisW1

    ChrisW1 Formula 3

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    of course I know that the discussion has been going on for a long time. I was just trying to make use of comments that RBR and McLaren made in the past few days to make it sound like it is a hot, current, topic :)

    The guy BTW also mentioned that all stories that he had seen in the press about oil burning were plain wrong. That includes the theories in the links that you've posted above which mention oil slipping past the pistons, mixing gasoline with oil, or using additives in the oil.

    He mentioned that that was nonsense. He mentioned that 'normal' engine oil, if effectively mixed with gasoline in the air intake channel (which happens naturally in the air flow; you do not need to mix the oil with gasoline and inject them as one mixed fluid), will provide extra energy that can be released when burning it.
     
  4. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oil normally seeps into the combustion chamber ever since the introduction of the ICE via through the pistion rings and/or crankshaft. Some of it can come from the top into the piston head. An F1 car normally burns 3 to 5 ltrs of oil at said track given setup.
     
  5. ChrisW1

    ChrisW1 Formula 3

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    And exactly that was labelled as nonsense by the guy from the Ferrari F1 engine team.

    It also sounds illogical to me. Why should these extremely low revving engines all of a sudden use so much oil via the piston rings? The pistons or piston rings are not fundamentally different from the previous generation F1 engines that revved up to 18000 rpm. It was only after the introduction of a fuel limit per race and max fuel consumption at a specified rpm that likely at first one engine manufacturer came up with idea that engine oil could also be used as fuel. Before that - just like in most other forms of racing today where you do not have these limits on fuel consumption - engines do not use significant amounts of oil.
     
  6. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    What I have read Chris, the FIA breaks down fuel on the molecular level but for oil, it's just on a volumetric level but NOT at the molecular level; hence the additives. How Mercedes is able to get their quali mode or "strat mode 3" is still a mystery to me. The additives in the oil react with the fuel.

    This is from a Motorsport article:


    "The new power unit will seek better performance by moving the limits in terms of duration of energy conversion," he said.

    "For this reason, the Petronas Primax new fuel and Petronas Syntium engine oil were reformulated to meet the demands of the Mercedes engineers."

    When asked if the fuel gains could be as much as the three tenths of a second that was estimated early in the turbo hybrid rules, Dolfi said: "The value in performance is significant. I can't say more because the data is sensitive, but we are satisfied with the work that has been done."

    Mercedes gets boost from new Petronas fuel

    https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-gets-boost-from-new-petronas-fuel-877309/
     
  7. ChrisW1

    ChrisW1 Formula 3

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    I assume that the continuous optimisation of fuel of is unrelated to the sudden consumption of oil of these engines, although theoretically it could be linked if you need to adapt the fuel composition a bit to better be able to use engine oil in the combustion chamber.

    The composition of the fuel does not explain how the oil gets into the combustion chambers in quantities that are much and much higher than in other modern high performance engines.
     
  8. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
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    Years ago the engine oil breather went to a catch tank, and was emptied after sessions. Maybe if the FIA ruled this, there would be no oil combustion conspiracy! This should be wide open racing, without fuel consumption rules!
     
  9. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Tech tricks in the world championship
    What's going on with the oil?

    13.10.2017 Michael Schmidt

    The F1 top teams do not only care about themselves, they also litter the competition. And in doing so, establish things which seem strange to them. Under suspicion are moving wings, trickery with the oil or commandos at the radio.

    The closer the World Cup decision, the harder the bandages. Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull distrust each other. No sooner will Red Bull go again to win, the opponents look exactly at the blue cars. And want to have seen that they bend the front wing end plates again significantly. And the arched wings above the side boxes. Since Silverstone had already given a warning through the FIA. Lewis Hamilton took the evil word "Flexi-wings" in his mouth at his Thursday press conference. Ohne den Adressaten zu nennen. Without mentioning the addressee.

    In Suzuka Ferrari was also targeted. Why was the transmission from Sebastian Vettel after the GP Malaysia flown to check to Maranello? Can not you check on the ground whether the transmission of force was affected by the collision with Lance Stroll in the round of the race? In the questions the suspicion resonates that Ferrari secretly exchanged the entrails of the transmission in order to escape punishment.

    All hot air, it is said from FIA circles. The seals were checked after the arrival in Suzuka at the transmission in the dismantled condition. . Ferrari was not allowed to install the power transmission before. The seals were all undamaged and in the right place.

    In addition, according to the association, all the top teams would send their power transfers between the races home to investigate them for damage. There, they have special test stands, on which they can test the functions of the control box. It must cost a fortune to fly the parts for a few days around the world.

    A much more serious accusation is that Ferrari is supposed to have used a liquid which is injected into the combustion chambers if necessary, in order to achieve more power in the short term. There have been complaints in Montreal and Monza. For all new engines introduced from Monza, 0.9 liters per 100 kilometers are valid. Previously, it was 1.2 liters.

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    The FIA keeps itself covered on the subject. It is a tightrope walk because there is no rule yet, but only a technical directive. One only hears that Mercedes and Ferrari are far from Renault and Honda for oil consumption. There must be a plan behind it. Otherwise, no one needs oil to a degree, according to Redhor's team boss Christian Horner could talk of "diesel engines".

    It is assumed that at least Ferrari runs with different types of oil, stores them in at least three tanks and, if necessary, mixes them in such a way that they are used as a performance-promoting additive in the combustion process. The rules do not prohibit the use of different oils.

    The transfer into the cylinders is theoretically based on extremely low-viscosity oils, which create it from below on the piston rings into the combustion chamber. This would only make sense for the fast qualifying rounds. Over a longer distance, the engine would be affected.

    The other trick is to use the gases generated during the oil / air separation as a power aid. They must be blown back into the intake manifold according to regulations. However, the consistency of the oil must correspond to that measured by the FIA before the race. Who intermeshes an oil with the other tank, has a problem with the technical acceptance afterwards.

    The suspicion against Ferrari has been reinforced since the first pictures of the open Ferrari rear. The engine problems in the starting position revealed, among other things, the view of an elongated container above the cylinder head. Many would like to know what's in there.

    What does the OVR button do at Ferrari?

    An oil mix, which is generated during the driving operation by selective mixing of liquids, should be drained before the end of the race, so that it is not discovered during the technical inspection. The warning lights went on when Vettel was asked to press the OVR button three times in Monza. At a time when his position in the race was safe, he needed no extra power.

    [​IMG]

    We hear from the initiated circles that there was a last warning to Monza. And that no angels work for Mercedes-Benz. The engine oil is also used trickily there, just different. This is the end of next year. Then there are the same strict rules for oil as for petrol.

    Listening is a normal process in times of open radio traffic. Most teams record the entire radio traffic and bring it to paper. In the case of strange commands, a closer look is given to what happens in the cockpit of the car in question.

    The competition is puzzling, for example, what Ferrari's command "secure the cockpit" has. The driver is sometimes blown into the car after the race. It occurred in Sochi and in Sepang.

    The conspiracy theorists suspect secret reference points for the clutch, which must be removed in the roundabout. Perhaps the teams in their paranoia but also the grass grow, and the commands turn out to be quite banal.


    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/f1-technik-tricks-im-wm-kampf-oel-12747718.html&prev=search
     
  10. kylec

    kylec F1 Rookie
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    Yet transmissions have to last multiple races for cost savings reasons.

    In addition, according to the association, all the top teams would send their power transfers between the races home to investigate them for damage. There, they have special test stands, on which they can test the functions of the control box. It must cost a fortune to fly the parts for a few days around the world.
     

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