NA V8 Permanent part of model lineup | FerrariChat

NA V8 Permanent part of model lineup

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by F2003-GA, Sep 23, 2017.

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  1. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Porsche have decided to Keep Naturally aspirated engines as a permanent part of their model line up
    I wish Ferrari would do the same.They can add hybrid only if needed to meet emissions. Hopefully they
    can see the worth in doing so. Especially since Sergio wants to reach out to the collector crowd
     
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  2. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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    Am I crazy? Doesn't Porsche offer 1 car as naturally aspirated?

    Even still I don't think it will last forever for the naturally aspirated at Porsche. It just seems too difficult to have an entire engineering program for one car.
     
  3. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    That's exactly what I'm saying that Porsche does offer the GT3 as a NA option for the customers and Ferrari should do the same.
    They could use existing chassis and body to avoid too much development costs
     
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  4. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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    Please don't take this as an insult... but do you know how much money it takes to develop one engine for road use... including the mandatory 10 years worth of parts... warranty... homologation etc... its huge...

    The only reason why Porsche can build the naturally aspirated engine is because they make SO much money from the Cayennes, Panameras, and Macans. The GT3 program does dont pay for itself. Not in the slightest.

    Again, I don't know how in the world they are going to continue to build that engine for the future. I would venture to say it won't be around for the next generation car/engine. I just don't see it. Also as the rules in motorsports change (they are going more eco-friendly) I think the push will be on the race car side as well... and the moment the rules for racing become more favorable to run a turbo engine... the GT3 naturally aspriated program is over.
     
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  5. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    "GT3 program does not pay for itself ":confused: total BS - Porsche has no reason to sell cars at a loss nor is there any evidence of such. Please quote legitimate sources if you know different
     
  6. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    From what the poeple at lotus told me, you need 2k units per anum to be viable with a bespoke engine.
     
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  7. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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  8. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Put of inetrest how mnay v12 ferraris are sold in a year?
     
  9. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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    Your Joking right?

    Manufacturers produce cars at a loss ocassionally. Usually low volume... which is obvious... because you lack the scale... but also if you lose 20k per car over 500 units... no big deal. If you lost 2k per car and built 100,000... well... you do the math...

    Basically Porsche has been proclaiming since they built they cayenne and the panamera the reason they build these cars is to help fund the development of the limited run cars. They have been saying it since about 2004... in numerous publications
     
  10. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Again you're talking in vast generalities with no specific evidence of your claim
     
  11. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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    My evidence is...

    I worked for a major manufacture for almost 10 years. (specifically during the period to which I am speaking)
    I work in this industry
    Many of my friends work for European manufacturers as factory reps.
    I am a car nut
    I read constantly
    I know what it costs to homologate a tail light... let alone an engine program including hardware and software and meeting multiple countries standards.

    The math is incredibly simple... They simply do not sell enough naturally aspirated engines, nor does the engine share enough architecture with other production engines to be a stand alone profitable model, and even in the BEST case scenerio where it breaks even it is not an efficent use of capital and resources for the company.

    If SUV sells tapered off... you would also see the special edition cars taper at least without shared hardware. There just isn't enough money in building 991 cars... for a major manufacture to survive on especially a publicly traded one

    So my evidence is my personal experience in the business and I apologize for not being able to point to an internet link of conversations that are had personally. Also, this by now is considered common knowledge... so finding specific internet links is a little difficult... but this will give you some insight

    http://www.businessinsider.com/porsche-suv-sales-game-2016-3

    The part you want to read is towards the bottom of this page and continued on page 2
    https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2005-porsche-cayenne-s-long-term-road-test-the-porsche-of-suvs-page-2

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a18139/the-suv-scourge-or-savior/
     
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  12. TDF355

    TDF355 Karting

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    Why would Ferrari need to devlop an NA V8 engine from scratch?
     
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  13. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Exactly - Especially since the idea is to make a small batch of cars for hardcore enthusiasts
     
  14. paulchua

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    We could all dream...

    sadly...we wake up from sweater man's mouth.
     
  15. 8500rpm

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    Without in-depth knowledge of Porsche's finances, it's difficult to analyse whether a GT3 is profitable.

    The car is still a 911, meaning it shares the core structure and most of the interior bits. Most of the changes are powertrain and suspension. It's not as if a GT3 is a ground-up redesign that cannot exploit any of the R&D work already done for the 911.

    We can simplify it and look at the engine only. The existing 9A1/9A2 blocks are already a sunk cost, so there can be incremental improvements to keep an NA version going.

    When Porsche decides to do a completely new engine block sometime in the future to replace the 9A2, then they will need to consider the cost to adapt a NA version for hardcore models. The 718 engines are a chopped and re-engineered version of the 9A2, so these are not ground-up designs either. None of these developments occur in a vacuum.
     
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  16. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Well said
     
  17. CETH

    CETH Karting

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    They produce around 6 V12's per day (and 24-28 V8's per day, not counting all the petrol Maserati engines)
     
  18. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    So its economic for ferrari to produce 12-1500 v12s per year and 4-5000 v8s. On that basis 2500 na motors seems to be well within the zone of ferrari profitability, especialy if they are using an existing block.

    years ago iw as at Lotus, thye told me the break even for a bespoke engine was 1500-2000 units per year, and thats lotus who does not have the R&D heft or production capabilities of ferrari..
     
  19. 100badboy100

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  20. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Definitely in the right spirit - Hope they do very well
     
  21. RonH

    RonH Formula 3

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    Michael thanks for sharing that piece on the new TVR. It looks awesome. Ferrariesque lower body, retro upper cab with a lot of light and glass, and cut off tail that is very retro TVR. Would love to see it available in the US at that price point. We can all dream!
     
  22. 100badboy100

    100badboy100 Formula Junior
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    I hope the company does well this time Round.

    They build cars for enthusiasts and purists and have a good following here in the UK

    Fingers crossed they will export them for you guys to!

    Regards

    Michael


    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
     
  23. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    50/50 weight distribution is only valuable if you have the same sized tires F/R !
    Can you name a single Ferrari in the last 3 decades with the same sized tires F/R ? (I didn't think so)
    Once the rear tires are bigger you actually want more weight on them.
    Given the typical mid-engined Ferrari has 240mm Fronts and 300 mm Rears, the proper weight distribution is 44/55 within rounding errors.
     
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  24. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Thanks for enlightening us :)
     
  25. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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