mileage | FerrariChat

mileage

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by scorpion, Oct 21, 2004.

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  1. scorpion

    scorpion Formula Junior

    Jan 19, 2004
    469
    Kentucky
    Just wondering - this may or may not have been discussed before - There seems to be a general consensus that GQ's are basically a bunch of problems just waiting to happen. I buy this, as it is typical of not only Ferrari's but of any car. On the other hand what I don't understand is why so many act like a Ferrari with over 30,000 miles is a high mileage beater. Assuming a reasonable number of miles is driven each year, say 3,000 - 4,000 miles, a 25 year old car should have 75,000 - 100,000 miles. This being said, I would expect to see most 308's in this range. Prior to purchasing my 308 I found that a substantial percentage of the cars "indicated" 30,000 miles or less, while the condition of may of them obviously was way in excess of 30,000 (more like 130,000 or maybe 230,000). I just don't get the stigma associated with a reasonable mileage and well maintained car. So, while it may be high mileage, should a well cared for (and documented) 25 year old Ferrari with 75,000 - 100,000 miles be considered worn out or at least worth substantially less than one with 30,000 miles? I don't think so but then again everyone has an opinion. Also, how can anyone with a 25 year old car with much less than 75,000 miles consider their car anything but a garage queen?
     
  2. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 26, 2001
    29,385
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    Trailer Swift
  3. TOM B

    TOM B Formula 3

    Jul 24, 2003
    1,038
    Orange County, NY
    Full Name:
    Thomas Buckley
    Tillman,
    With all due respect, the previous thread really doesn't answer his question. Which, by the way, was well thought out. As these cars get older, the mileage / obvious-wear disparity becomes more and more pronounced. People are warned against high-mileage cars but are left scratching their heads at the number of 25 year old cars with less than 30,000 miles. At the same time they are warned to stay away from garage queens. His point is well taken. Isn't a 25 year old car with < 30,000 miles a garage queen anyway?

    Meanwhile, people with high mileage cars that are well maintained are relegated to the back of the Ferrari bus. In my opinion, it's about time that they be viewed for what they are. That is, fine running exotic cars that weren't feared by their owners and driven as Enzo intended by honest owners.

    I have with 89,000 miles on my 3.2 Mondial and knowthat I will never be able to sell it due to the prejudice that exists against cars which are driven..... and not had the speedometer cable disconnected.

    I, for one, would like to hear the answers to his specific question.
     
  4. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    You're right he deserves one. But until people's perceptions change I'm afraid it's a catch 22 we are stuck with.
     
  5. ethans_dad

    ethans_dad Formula Junior

    Mar 24, 2002
    388
    San Francisco, CA
    Full Name:
    Stephen R Chong
    Scorpion:
    My opinion is that many of these Ferraris are sentenced to being GQ's in fear of depreciating value. This is sad because all cars ARE depreciating asssets aren't they? Other than the low production vintage and race cars, I would think that most modern/classic Ferraris fall into the high production driver catagory and hopefully are being enjoyed on the open road by their owners. This type of ownership and operation has resulted in this flawed value system for modern day Ferraris.


    Cheers
    Steve
    85 GTS QV 60K and looking forward to the next 60K!
     
  6. 285ferrari

    285ferrari Two Time F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    Sep 11, 2004
    20,845
    Southern Md
    Full Name:
    Robbie
    F the mileage Drive the SH&T out of it and enjoy it.
     
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  7. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
    Sponsor Owner


    My thoughts (and actions) exactly. If I wanted an investment, I'd buy some dirt or Kruugerands.

    -Daniel
     
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  8. Cavallino Motors

    Cavallino Motors F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    May 31, 2001
    14,143
    Florida or Argentina
    Full Name:
    Martin W.
    Here again is my calculation:

    1985 308QV red/tan (assuming all well cared for with service records)

    20,000 miles worth $ 35,000
    50,000 Miles $ 32,000
    80,000 Miles $ 27,000
    110,000 Miles (we finally see those) $ 23,000

    In other words the guy that drove 90,000 Miles more than the guy with the 20K Miles car lost $ 12,000 in depreciated value! That is a $0.13 a mile for a smile :)

    The choice is clear. Drive the piss out of them, enjoy and never look back!

    I just sold a 1999 F355 F1 with 42K Miles and earlier this year a 1998 F355 Spider with 102K Miles. Both ran great! Better than most 10K miles cars I have driven.
     
  9. Jerrari

    Jerrari F1 Veteran

    Jul 24, 2001
    5,463
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Jerry Wiersma
    I remember the one w/ 102,000 on it. Wasn't it owned by an older gentleman? BTW, my 308 had 99,700 on the clock when I sold it earlier this year...it ran beautifully!!
     
  10. henryk

    henryk Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2003
    479
    Door County, WI
    I laugh, when I read, in MANY statements, that Ferrari engines are "bullet-proof". Then, only to find that most people fear the high mileage cars!

    I, personally, don't believe most claims of <30k miles for a 308. The speedometers are TOO easy to disconnect............and this is true of most older Ferraris.

    In buying used cars, especially Ferraris, the ONLY factor in determining price, for most people is.......mileage........mileage.........mileage!!!!!!!!!! And it seems that everyone knows that, and follows that. It is to the sellers benefit to disconnect the speedometer. And, I feel, most do it.

    I have seen Ferraris, at dealers, that appeared to have more mileage than indicated. One dealer stated, that the wear on the seats, was due to the owner just getting in and sitting in the car, a lot...........total BS, to me. The dealer just doesn't want to know, and is just trying to find a sucker.
     
  11. Jdubbya

    Jdubbya The $10 Trillion Man
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 28, 2003
    37,253
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    John
    I can't wait till my 308 pops 100k so I can sell it on E-bay as the lowest original miles 308 in the world....Look only 5 miles, really!!!


    Seriously though,

    I agree with some of the above comments...Drive it and to hell with the Mileage Nazi's!!!
     
  12. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
    10,676
    Worldwide
    Full Name:
    Steven
    :)
     
  13. scorpion

    scorpion Formula Junior

    Jan 19, 2004
    469
    Kentucky
    IMHO think the reference to "used car" is probably the point. Most people view a 308 as a used car and shop/purchase as such - not as a classic. When shopping for a used car, mileage is a factor as well as condition - while shopping for a classic, actual mileage is generally of much less value than condition. While 308s are getting older they haven't made it to an age where they are considered by many to be a classic.
     
  14. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
    12,887
    Cumming, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Franklin E. Parker
    If you're afraid to put miles on your Ferrari because of fear of depreciation, then you probably can't afford the car anyway. A lot of people s-t-r-e-t-c-h their budget to get a Ferrari and then can't afford to drive or maintain it. Get a Porsche instead and enjoy driving it. Your finances and the Ferrari's condition will be much better off that way.
     
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  15. dwhite

    dwhite F1 Rookie

    Absolutly correct. This applies to so many cars, where mait. is way above average. I have almost 60K on my 308QV and it looks and drives better than most 308s with half the mileage. Last time I went to Lime Rock, in it it ran even better on the way back after 150 miles of spirited back road driving on the way up, where it ran flawlessly
     
  16. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    16,078
    Arlington Heights IL
    Full Name:
    Kenneth
    My two cents:

    True garage queens are NOT a bad car to buy. You will have a different set of issues if you plan on driving it however than a high mileage driver. You will first be replacing rubber, seals, lines, tires, etc. Then as you drive it, you'll have one or two years when things will spontaniously break. You will need to fix/replace them. This will happen fairly often.

    But after the shake down period, you will emerge with a cosmetically beautiful car due to lower miles, and mechanically sound to boot. You will have spent a fair amount of money for the car plus repairs but there will be a light where the car now is as reliable as a Ferrari allows.

    Now, take the well maintained 80,000 mile car. You can drive it home and nothing will break. You can drive it for two years and some parts may wear out but by and large you won't be developing new problems that weren't there to begin with. That stresses the importance of a PPI; if the engine was ready to let go when you bought it, the PO probably had an inkling of it.

    You will have paid a lot less for the 80k mile car and had a more reliable first two years. But the paint will have issues, the interior will have issues. You will likely have a lot of incorrect parts that may be better, but will annoy the snobs. As the mileage climbs past 5 digits, things will be deteriorating and you'll be replacing all kinds of stuff from wheel bearings, engine mounts, you name it. Lots of this stuff will have been replaced but now has worn out again. So after two years you will be increasing your mantainence costs if you do a "fix as it breaks" approach.


    So it's a trade off. Both a queen and a driver are good cars to buy if you understand what you're getting in to.

    ken
     
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  17. speedracer5

    speedracer5 Karting

    Oct 15, 2004
    87
    Northeast, USA
    This is a very good question and one that needs to be completely discussed. Thank you to scorpion for asking it.

    It seems to me that to some degree rightly or wrongly it is sort of based on what "used Ferrari" you are talking about. If for example you are talking about the 308 to 328 model, or TRs, or 348s or F355s, or 550/575 or 465 or 360s. In other words any F-car from late 70s to now. It seems that towards the end of the 1990s people started to think the same way they did from the mid 1980s to 1989. Where people feel they can drive a F-car and it does not really go down in price or depreciate much at all. Currently it is a false sense of security and yes it seems to also be linked to mileage. These thoughts are only helped along by Ferrari production numbers and the vast amount of what seems to be the demand. And yes as an example Ferrari has produced 17,000 +/- 360s in 5 yrs. This is still not a lot of cars compared to other manufacturers. That is around 3400 cars a year. In Ferrari world that is a lot I guess but not in the sports car segment of the market.

    It seems that at least from my point of view that the 360 is a good example of what I am trying to say. The price has remained high for quite a few years. This has made owners feel that so long as they do not go over a certain mileage the price of their car will remain strong. It gives us a sense that we can almost drive a F-car for free. Why do we feel this is our right of ownership? Or I should ask do any of you feel that this is a right of ownership of a F-car?

    I also have seen or rather have read a lot of posts where all of us have discussed how amazing it is to drive whatever F-car you own. How much it makes us smile, how it feels to be driving down the street, the reactions we get in our F-cars from other people, the way we like the design/style, and many other things we like about our F-cars.

    Well if one of the most rewarding aspects of owning a F-car is driving it why is mileage such an issue? Why would we penalize people who drive their F-cars and have higher mileage and lots of great memories and joy down by saying their car is worth so much less than one that has not been driven at all (Queens)? I agree with some of the comments made here. I like driving my F-car. I don't think about my car being worth a lot less than another car. I have never ever bought a F-car as an investment. To me Ferrari builds great sports cars.

    So for all of you out there please share your thoughts on this topic. Thank you.
     
  18. 1975gt4don

    1975gt4don Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
    665
    Peoples Rep of CA
    Full Name:
    Smog Exempt
    Go out and check out the mileage on some of these 246's, especially the GTS's. A great majority of them have at least 65K miles on them, but look at what they are selling for.

    GQ's can KMA.
     
  19. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,143
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    speedracer has hit it on the head.........a Ferrari is to be driven, that's the value!

    The battle to 'maintain value' by not driving it lets that slip away, doesn't it?

    To think that any production Ferrari does not follow a pretty standard depreciation curve is pure fantasy on the part of the Owner. They'll wake up when the snooze alarm goes off.

    At some point SOME models will flatten out on the curve and a few examples but not all may go back up a little bit, in actual cash value. But when maintenance and upkeep is factored in, (specialized and not at all cheap), you have still spent money on a 'smiles per mile' investment.


    The return on the 'investment' is the smiles!

    If you are that uptight on the money side of the equation, the Pcar suggestion is well made.
     
  20. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,143
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    My technician argues that the high value in Dinos is due to the cost of the garage, to house them all those years!

    LOL!
     
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  21. 1975gt4don

    1975gt4don Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
    665
    Peoples Rep of CA
    Full Name:
    Smog Exempt
    I came across a 74 246GT at Gary Bobileff's a few months ago. dark blue, with 11,000 original fully documented miles. Wisconsin license plates. The poor car's entire body was rusted from the inside out, paint was crazing every which way and a rattle can spray paint job would have helped it. Original paint and interior.

    The garage where this Dino was stored in was apparently in a humid area with no climate control in this garage. bare concrete floor didn't help things.
    I am going to go by Gary's this weekend and see if I can get some digital pics of it if it is still there.

    Gary was asking 38K for it, but no takers.

    What a fricking shame. 11K miles and my GT4 looks 100 times better with 7X the miles!!!!!!!


     
  22. eyeman1234

    eyeman1234 Formula 3
    Owner

    Dec 25, 2006
    1,881
    Boca Raton, FL
    Maintenance over miles brings more smiles! :D
     
  23. vandevanterSH

    vandevanterSH Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 27, 2005
    1,787
    AR
    Full Name:
    Stephen Van Devanter
    104,000 miles on my 575M manual...just got her first clutch replacement. Routine maintenance costs and the occasional repair will cause your eyes to bleed but is worth every cent. Even my wife says that the "F" car is the best purchase ever.

    Steve
     
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  24. Jana

    Jana F1 Veteran

    Mar 4, 2015
    9,872
    A car that is driven regularly and maintained properly is a WAY better buy than one that has sat for months/years on end. Ask me all about the 38k I put into a 360 that never did get sorted before I finally gave up and got rid of it.

    The problem comes in with people requiring the car to hold value. I think they should get over it. An exotic is not required for life. It's a huge bonus. So I believe people should buy the car, assuming it will be worth nothing, and then drive it as much as they want. If you have to consider depreciation when making an exotic car purchase, then you can't afford the car.
     
  25. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 15, 2012
    33,711
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    George Pepper
    My 456M was eleven years old and had 7,069 miles on it when I drove it off the lot. It had never had a belt service and there were electrical glitches galore, but it was Rosso Corsa with shields and a tan Daytona interior, so it was worth it for me (There were 15 RC 456's in North America, now only 14). It took $20K over the first two months to sort it out, and then it was fine for over 20K miles. At 33K miles a hose came loose, so I did an engine out at that point to do a second belt service, replace the motor mounts, and rebuild the top end with new valve guides. That was over $20K right there, but whoever gets that car next will have a perfectly sorted vehicle. I kept all the bills organized by date and labelled as to what services were done. The previous eleven years now mean absolutely nothing. I'm responsible for that car being mechanically and electrically perfect.

    I'm not looking for an ultra low miles car anymore. I'm looking for a detailed service history that addresses all the known wear items and known issues.

    Cheers,

    George
     
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