Instructor, Student Killed In Fiery Lamborghini Track Experience Crash In Las Vegas

I don't think ABS can be switched off. Traction control, maybe, but not ABS.

 

It's sad no matter how you look at it. Cars today are so much faster than yesterday. This is why I like taking a Miata to the track. On cold day with the wind at your back, you might hit 125 mph. Even with a full NASCAR cage, 6-point belts, HANS, fire extinguisher, you can still get hurt; but your odds are so much better than in new convertible sports car with zero safety gear.

Maybe I don't get out enough, but it seems like you hear more about these kinds of tragedies at "track days" than full-blown races. I know a lot people like em. I've done em. But, you gotta wonder. Given how powerful cars are today right off the showroom floor, do track days make any sense?

 

A question often asked by those of us that have been around a while with club track days etc. Todays street cars are far faster than yesterdays full on race cars with a full compliment of safety equipment.

It is an uncomfortable question worth pondering.

When I was younger getting a car all the way up to 100 took a bit of space. Now I can go from 70 to 150 and back down again between packs of traffic on an urban freeway.

 

I just dont understand why a track purpose built in a desert for amateurs has to have anything nearby to hit? It should just be wide open with grass or dirt runoff and no barriers anywhere.

I did a similar track day years ago in mexico and I couldnt believe how it was designed. If driver missed the last turn they could potentially crash right into the clubhouse! Vegas obviously wasnt much better. Such a shame. And btw, there was no instructor brake pedal in any of the cars in mexico.

 

In the late '60s, doing the ton on a Triumph Bonneville was a trip. You KNEW you were going too fast. Everything vibrated so hard it was all a big blur. You were hanging for dear life, and it was something you did once, and never again.

 

I think the answer to the lack of runoff area has to do with minimizing the land acquisition costs.

Some of the local news reports mentioned a spin. I'll bet the driver was still hard on the brakes when he turned into the chicane, and the rear end came around.

The best place to learn suspension dynamics IMO, is at an SCCA autocross event in a big parking lot where you can't get hurt.

We were talking bikes before, I think this rider got on the brakes, loaded up the front wheel, and couldn't turn. Almost got hit by the oncoming vehicle as well. Good thing he had some gear on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKptdJ3RVrA

 

I wish you hadn't posted those links. That is seriously bad riding.

 

Agree with you. A person would have to be crazy to get into a car capable of 200mph with a novice. The way you learn how to do performance driving is in an underpowered car. The rationale for having DE events when the car capability/driver skill gap is widening, should be re-evaluated.

 

i feel telemetry based instructing would work well for intermediate and advanced drivers but novice and beginners will still need instructors in the passenger seat. not sure which group has the most accidents or injuries but i dont really like being shot gun with upper level drivers while im ok with beginners

 

A few years back at watkins glenn a friend was instructing someone in brand new z06 vette, the car was off the showroom floor, driver had never been to track before and the car was bone stock, stock pads stock fluids.

You can all guess what happened next, coming up to the bus stop after 4 or so laps at 140-150 or 160ish the brake pedal goes to the floor. An experinced driver may have maybe gone straight through the cones downshifted, or pumped the pedal. This driver went for the chicane. They are luckly they hit another car and went into a spin which mraculously spun them through the chicane out and up around and down the hill all on track. The vette lost its whole side, no one was hurt in either car, miraculous is the word that comes to mind.

I'll give the vette driver great credit, he paid to fix the car he hit. Went to race school, got atracked out e36 bmw and works on his craft.

 

Good to hear, I am doing some instructing at a lotus event at the Glenn. Low power with mostly beginners.

 

Hmmm, lotus event? Obviously, great to drive yourself when youre one whos in control but not exactly robust machines. Ive done it myself and even had student spin her elise once. Keep a tight leash them and since wg is huge, stay away from traffic

 

Beginners at the events you go to are not the problem. It's the intermediate and advanced drivers that know just enough to be dangerous.

That said, I started with the Ferrari Club in the early 1980's with NO instructors (or even helmets) at places like Charlotte Motor Speedway, Road Atlanta and Roebling Road. We didn't have any major issues, either. Very rare to have damage until the mid 1990's at these events.

I've also conducted dealer appreciation events at VIR and other tracks that were structured to allow bone-stock novices to begin in paced sessions and progress to passing on the straights by the end of the day. Again, no or few instructors and not required for this event. Again, seven years, multiple events in powerful cars (in this case Audi S-line and RS-line cars up to the R8 V10) with ZERO issues and NO damage.

Having sold more than $2M of data and video equipment to club day, DE and club racing drivers over the last eight years, I am strong proponent of getting instructors OUT of the right seat. But to each his own. There are many ways to skin a cat.

In this case, at the "experience" event, it didn't work out. Even with a right seat, experienced and credentialed instructor.

The culture of PCA, Audi and BMW particularly, as well as very good for profit groups like Chin and HOD, reinforce this "mandatory instructors for novice drivers" culture, in exchange for free or low cost track time. Smh.

 

I would NEVER ride in the right seat. I have major trust issues.

 

It is pretty sad that all they can do to control a situation like this is put in a braking system for the instructor. That is pretty weak. Let's say you are hurtling toward a corner with a driver who is over his head but who has the steering wheel, does stabbing the brake make this situation any better?

The car should have a "learning" mode that uses active inputs from the systems in the car to limit power at the next most opportune time (like the next full depression of the accelerator) once it senses the driver is over driving the vehicle. With GPS technology as good as it is, they could monitor and reduce the speed of cars without having an instructor held hostage by some rich assh*le.

I'm sure trolls will work hard to find ways for this not to work but the bottom line is that in a time when technology can get a car to 100mph in 6 seconds or less, we need technology to ensure it is done safely.

 

Ok i will start shooting idea down. Having said that, I believe bmw has autonomous car that laps track at pro pace for few yrs already

Good idea but what is the market for such an item? Maybe 10 companies that have these amusement park like driving events. They have about 10 cars each. So you develop this tech and sell hundred of them and then done? No reason for track co to ever buy another one either unless add another car. Exist on servicing the 100? Not likely.

No market for this tech so will never happen

 

Probably should have a first drive on a sim where the instructor can suss out potential issues and give a chance to correct before heading to the track.

iRacing and other sims are pretty realistic representations of the real world and have examples of fwd, rwd, mid engine, rear engine, etc.

Of course people may drive differently on track than real life - may be bolder on the sim.

 

pretty sure this place does have a sim setup to practice on.

 

Funny, I would think it would be the reverse. What's the worst that can happen in iracing?


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Sorry, there is a market for this. I am looking for just such a fleet of vehicles (about 50) which I will turn over every 3 years. I can justify the cost because it reduces my liability, insurance premiums, and maintenance costs. If you think Safety is expensive, try having a fatal accident that kills your customer and your employee.

 

We are considering using sims for initial training to mitigate risk once the driver is in the car. It is useful for procedural training (how to drive the car, how to respond to track signals, how to go from paddock to grid to track, etc.) but we have no expectations that it will give us any indications of how a driver will behave once on track.

 

this is exactly what I said. there is probably a market for few 100 of these devices but how can the tech company survive on such small volumes? how much will you pay for each one? $100k?