Instructor, Student Killed In Fiery Lamborghini Track Experience Crash In Las Vegas | Page 3 | FerrariChat

Instructor, Student Killed In Fiery Lamborghini Track Experience Crash In Las Vegas

Discussion in 'Tracking & Driver Education' started by Juan-Manuel Fantango, Feb 13, 2017.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2004
    18,659
    FL
    Full Name:
    Sean
    I cant comment on the track design. But to loose it like that requires a lot of excess speed. I thought the instructors had a brake pedal? Still even if the instructor slowed the car down a ham fisted driver could cause it to loose control.

    There are some people who should never be on track, or drive fast, but they do.

    While these high speed thrill events may seem like a fun idea and good buisness, whatever the imagined precuations, like jet ski rentals sooner or later it goes all pear shaped.

    Could also have been be brake failure for all we know.
     
  2. WoWBrother

    WoWBrother Rookie

    Mar 21, 2017
    6
    London,GB
    Full Name:
    Michael Seaflower
    I am so so regretted about that. Who knows who can be on his spot tomorrow
     
  3. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    SCCA would never allow a car like that on a track without a roll bar. Probably none of those cars have roll bars. And yeah, that track does look poorly designed. Looks like it's too close to the highway, to design in enough runoff area. And there should be more than 2 rows of tires before the barrier.
     
  4. vvassallo

    vvassallo F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 4, 2006
    8,281
    Palos Verdes
    Full Name:
    Vince V
    I have heard of events where speed is limited based on a vehicle's equipment. For example, a car without race safety equipment has a speed limit of 135 mph. Above that requires harness, cage, etc. up to another speed limit. The unlimited class requires a complete racing package including fuel bladder, HANS device, and on-board fire suppression. Makes sense, no? I don't see why a commercial enterprise like SpeedVegas should not adhere to similar regulations. Or at least limit their drivers to a 135 mph maximum in stock configuration. As for the track, well, it appears to have a design flaw but only where excessive speed comes into the equation. Holding firm at the 135 mph limit would likely have mitigated the accident result. Maybe. That chicane is in a bad place where there are walls to hit if one misses either turn. Plus it's in an area approached at very high speed. Conceivably the driver forgot there was an "Ess" complex, saw the red mist, and went for a banzai run down what he thought was a clear straight.
     
  5. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    16,210
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    Don't know if there's a notable difference in crashing at 160 vs 135. Either is more than ample to kill you. Kinetic energy goes up with th square of speed... But, does it matter?
     
  6. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,464
    VIR Raceway
    Full Name:
    Peter Krause
    Umm, no.
     
  7. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2008
    98,539
    Vegas baby

    The car did split in two which spilled the tanks. The instructor burned to death, the driver died instantly.

    There is a point where cars will do that. But hitting an immovable concrete wall can't help improve the odds. I have no idea why there were only 2 rows of tires there. It seems so illogical given who the car ended up hitting there.

    This track, compared to the 2 others in LV, has very little run off area. And, why you would make a rental track car out of a convertible is beyond me. They spent more money on the wrap than they did about modifying it for track use.

    I'm upset about this not just because of the two people who died, which is tragic enough. But it's also a black mark on an industry for, IMO, something that could have and should have been prevented. Crashes happen. Something like this didn't seem to have to end up this way.

    Track driving at high speeds is dangerous. But there are things you can do to minimize it --and it seems they didn't do them.
     
  8. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    previous posts make reference to salvage title and track modifications ( if correct )... lots of room for loss of designed integrity and safety in addition for substandard work to creep in... then the rental issue with associated maintenance and use at design limits or beyond, puts wear and stress at levels beyond normal use. Guessing the manufacturer would be absolved from major or any liability, placing liability with the rental agency / owners of the car and the renters... where does one take responsibility for one's actions in a high risk enviornment
     
  9. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    75,395
    Texas!
    I dunno. It looks like the driver froze. He didn't try any kind of evasive action. Was this a stick car? Could he have gone both feet in?
     
  10. Jana

    Jana F1 Veteran

    Mar 4, 2015
    9,872
    #60 Jana, Mar 22, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
    I'm not saying this is the reason, or even a good one, but I am 5'8" and I would still barely fit in my Huracan with a helmet on with the top up. My guess is the convertible top has enough give to allow for one for taller drivers. Now, if the seats were lowered to allow for more gap, then all bets are off.
     
  11. Jana

    Jana F1 Veteran

    Mar 4, 2015
    9,872
    If the money exceeding knowledge/ability wasn't the basis for everything with a motor, probably ten people would own a boat. But they sell those to anyone with the cash as well and every year, tons of people die in stupid ways.
     
  12. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,464
    VIR Raceway
    Full Name:
    Peter Krause
    Damned good question... He clearly overcorrected to draw that vector. He also hit the wall at a speed that indicates that the car didn't slow much, if any...
     
  13. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    Someone mentioned skid marks. Once the wheels are locked, the braking efficiency is greatly reduced. Also, you can't steer the vehicle with the wheels locked. Locking up at the entrance to the chicane is probably all that was needed to cause the crash.

    That track needs better designed barriers, but they might not have enough room there.

    Technical > Barriers > F1 Features - Grandprix.com
     
  14. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    75,395
    Texas!
    I have seen motorcycle guys freeze when they over cook a turn. They stand the bike up straight and go off, when what they should do is lean, lean you idiot, the bike can handle far more than you. The fact that this guy hit gravel twice is telling. Yeah, there may have been skid marks, but don't Lambo's have ABS? Please don't tell me he switched the ABS off, and what about traction control? I just can't help to think that if he had at least tried to turn, the car probably would have spun, but that's better than smacking a wall.
     
  15. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    When your wheels are locked, you can't turn. It's like driving on ice. What he should have done was lift up on the brake pedal, and then re-apply the brakes. But a drivers first instinct is to press harder on the brake pedal.

    The mechanics of a bike are the exact opposite of a car. When you enter a corner too fast, the instinct is to let up on the throttle, which loads up the front wheel, and the bike won't turn. This is what causes the bike to go straight off. The thing to do when a bike won't turn is to apply some throttle. This will get the bike to turn nicely.

    In both cases you need the presence of mind to go against your first instincts.
     
  16. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    75,395
    Texas!
    I agree, but you're assuming the ABS was turned off?
     
  17. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    Well with a 548' skid, it was either turned off, or not working properly.

    In the youtube videos, it looks like parts of those concrete barriers don't have any tires in front of them. Not good.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnYhdLAVMeo
     
  18. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    #68 spicedriver, Mar 23, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    From the pics, it looks like the tire barrier was strapped together, and came apart upon impact. Looks like the car came in backwards, tore apart the tire barrier, then hit the concrete wall and exploded the fuel tanks. Those vertical struts are probably the rear wing supports.

    It's probably better to bolt the tires together, and run the conveyor belt material across the front, like in the article I posted. I'm thinking their tire barrier didn't absorb the impact at all.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2004
    18,659
    FL
    Full Name:
    Sean
    A skid mark can be from a car going sideways or even spinning. Going m,ore or less straight with foot on the brake assuming abs working there might be a series of small marks as the system cycles, depeding on the system.
     
  20. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    from casual observation of cars striking tire barriers... seems that cars tend to submarine under the stacks of tires, negating any real restraint... the tires may be secured to each other and covered by some containment fabric yet the cars are able to burrow under the stacks of tires, eventually striking the barrier they are trying to avoid... there is nothing other than their weight that prevents the tires from lifting with impact and in many cases being scattered with the impact... this leaves the impression that there should be some sort of anchoring to the ground that prevents a car burrowing under allowing the tires to absorb all of the energy...
     
  21. jealva

    jealva Rookie

    Sep 27, 2007
    23
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Juan E. Alva
    I was considering hosting a client event at SpeedVegas and had a few laps in a 458 Italia to try it out. I have some track experience and topped out around 145 on the main straight before I jumped on the brakes in the breaking zone and negotiated that right-left chicane. I immediately noticed two things - 1) it's tight in there and you could get in trouble if you don't have experience and don't slow down enough and 2) there is not much runoff if you make a mistake and the barriers are concrete. Another thought stands out - it's not possible to know if the tires or brakes were overheated already when they went out for their laps. I know that tire pressures is something I focus on before going out on track to make sure I am in a good operating window. For safety's sake, these places should records temps before each session which would have the effect of making sure the pressures are OK and also giving the tires and brakes extra time to cool off. SpeedVegas did have a long cool down so that was good but the tires can still be too hot for optimal grip unless checked out.
     
  22. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    75,395
    Texas!
    That was my thought looking at the map. Plus, did you notice it appears the track out is right after that turn?

    If not already, there are going to be big time lawsuits here. Remember, the lawsuits in California involving the Porsche GT were filed by the life insurance companies.
     
  23. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2004
    18,659
    FL
    Full Name:
    Sean
    This reminds me of the search for the cause of the Paul Walker crash, was it spped, was it tires was it car fault.

    As others have said, when you go fast in a car things can happen.
    Take a car thats not really a track car, one with unknown history and huge hp. Have a minimum of safety equipment and a maximum of hp. Take a driver who may have zero experience with speed, add in a suboptimal track and sooner or later things are going to go pear shaped.

    Could a track be designed with unlimted runoff and gravel traps evrywhere. Sure I think there is one like that in Europe. For sure it would greatly limit the possibility of a problem. Youll still have tire blowouts, brake failures, cars flipping etc.

    Seems the consensus is that in this case the track is less than ideal safety wise for carnival rides. That may be true, and the track could be better. But we need to ask whether the whole concept of putting a civillian with no speed experience in a 500 or 600hp street car on track is sound.

    That all being said, Skip barber has run 1 day car schools at LRP for deacdes without major issue, and LRP is not what one would call a modern safety track.

    The skids are really curious. Not sure how that happens in an abs equipped car. To the extent they are there from locked brakes or moving sideways it indiactes an extreme rate of travel for far too long before corner. Why the car was not slowed ealrier is a muystery. Did the insytructor not have a brake pedal? did he not use it? did it somehow fail?

    I am left with sadness for the two people who died most brutaly.
     
  24. Frontv12

    Frontv12 Rookie

    Aug 31, 2016
    28
    I too have some experience at Exotics Racing and per this poster's comments, the cars are modified and the instructor has a brake they use if things get out of control coming into turns. Also, the straight IMO has no ability to get to speeds of 150mph. In many laps and really hitting the apex properly coming into the straight, in the F-458 I was in pushing thru the floor got it to about 125-129 before my instructor had me hit the brake hard to make the biggest turn. Also, no walls at all I can recall other than fencing that wasn't ever really on my radar. Others that were with me also had instructors that all had at one time or another used their big brake on the passenger side coming into a turn or two - few people have an appreciation of how hard one must brake when hitting over 100mph coming into a turn when they don't have any experience.
     
  25. It's Ross

    It's Ross Formula 3

    Jul 30, 2007
    2,028
    Barrington, Ill. USA
    Full Name:
    Ross
    Very sad that two died and families are forever effected simply because someone was trying to have fun.
    Boxerman put it well characterizing these events as"carnival rides".
     

Share This Page