i lost my self-confidence,

Just saw RB the other day - looked happy as always. Awesome guy.

I would suggest discretion in sharing any details or opinions of his in a public forum.

 

Not exactly : ) Appreciate you feeling compelled to have my back.

I was never told, and don't know if they concluded what failed in RB's case at Road Atlanta. Prior to him testing my car, I was having issues with the brake going to the floor. I did a couple of "safety laps" and couldn't duplicate it. Came in, parked it, told the mechanics, RB went out to test it, did a safety lap, went on a flyer, and into the wall in T1.

The knock back is something I definitely had at Sebring in T17 at 120 or so on a warm up lap, but saved it before the wall. I still went out and started and then lost the brakes again in T10 and went off. I retired the car. A test driver went out after and confirmed that he would lose the brakes due to knock back anytime he touched a curb. I also found out immediately before that race that the prior driver had reported a total loss of brakes at high speed as well. A properly maintained RT car will NEVER experience brake knock back. That was the last time I drove an RT car.

 

You're free not to, of course, but if you're going to throw Skip Barber under the bus for operating unsafely, anecdotes of a few bad accidents isn't evidence that there's anything amiss from a maintenance perspective. As said, failures will happen. Do some experience more than others? Maybe, but, it's also true that the more miles you drive, the more failures you're going to experience. And, the more at risk you are.

Notwithstanding how serious these injuries are, which is a separate issue, I would again say that, statistically, there has to be a way to measure whether Skip is in any way unsafe. Now, if you're suggesting that there's a design flaw in the car itself, I cannot comment. But, that's a different issue than poor maintenance, too. Again, is even a dozen brake failures in a million miles of driving unreasonable? Sure, even one is often argued to be too many, but the reality is that we, as drivers, trust that the equipment is properly inspected and maintained by a competent mechanic. We entrust our lives to them. But, we still assume the risk. So, what, ultimately, was the cause of the half shaft failures?

We either x-ray or magnaflux our suspension components, because a visual inspection isn't going to show stress cracking. Failures can still happen. I don't know that they can be prevented entirely. As I said, we always assume some risk when we go out on the track that there will be one. Everyone's going to have to judge for themselves how much risk they want to assume and whether it still makes sense to participate. You may have chosen to do something different, which is fine. But, it's also true that thousands of people have been in Skip's cars without incident.

CW

 

Glad to hear.

Noted.

CW

 

What is the maintenance cause of the failure?

And, frankly, if the problem could be replicated, I'd expect that the car should have been taken off the grid until it was repaired and cleared. Which is yet another, different issue. But, since you are saying that the two drivers in the car before complained of brake failure, did you request a different car?

CW

 

Everyone will tell you that play in the hub assembly is what causes it on the RTs. Some, like me, will also tell you that thin brake pads can exacerbate the problem. The latter people have debated with me, but it makes logical sense. The question is where does the play come from? All of those parts have a service life. You don't see many new parts on RT cars until something breaks. That's my observation.

It was suppose to have been repaired prior to me getting in it from the previous racer's complaint. I got in it, and experienced knock-back. Parked it. Then the test driver duplicated the knock back and then took it back for service again. I don't believe that car ran again that weekend.

One driver before me complained. Then they worked on it and gave it to me. There was no option for another car at the time; they barely had enough for the small field to begin with that weekend.

 

I just don't have the time or inclination honestly to type out all the failures I had alone, let alone others. I'm not taking on some fight, but I do feel compelled to respond. Just ask *any* person who has run the series in the past two years how they feel about the quality of the cars. They will all tell you the same thing.

Sure there is - get access to their statistics...assuming they keep detailed records. I have no idea. I have no desire to do so, and I don't know why you think I'm held to some standard to simply share factual experiences. It's quite easy for anyone to read and form their own opinion; just as I have. This isn't a trial; I'm sharing my experience.

Half shaft failures were from the bolts either falling out, sheared off, or both.

Who is "we"?

...and that's great. But if you just look at an RT car, as a racer, you are not going to see a car that appears safe. I mean they are rusting because they don't even keep up the powdercoat on the frame as just one small example. Doesn't that tell you something in general about the way they are maintained?

You are right about risk, and there is absolutely no way to prevent all mechanicals. But again, you have to ask yourself why they are happening and are reasonable steps being taken to prevent them. What kind of hours are the mechanics being asked to work and why? Do they have the parts they need?

Here's another stat for you. Last summer series, they had to cancel the race at Mid-Ohio. They couldn't scrape together enough cars for the field after the Laguna Seca weekend. So then they combined the final summer series and first winter series events. That's when RB got hurt. Following that they immediately went into the shootout which Dakota Dickerson ultimately won (well deserved). What a lot of people don't know is that during the shootout they didn't even have enough good cars for all of the shootout participants. There were only 10 competitors. So again, look at the numbers and draw your own conclusions.

 

So, we're looking for observable "play" in the assembly. That sounds like an easy-to-do inspection, and, if there's play, the car is pulled out of service until it is repaired. But, I'm confused if you're saying it's more complicated than that, somehow. Maybe they all have some play, and it's hard to distinguish which are going to experience failures? So, there's an acceptable level of play? Otherwise, none of the cars should be sent out, right? You also acknowledge, however, that your car was taken out of service (after the problem persisted and was replicated by a test driver) for the remainder of the weekend.

I'm kind of not sure what your arguing, then, and I can read it one of two ways:

On the one hand, I could construe it as Skippy is appropriately responding to observed and repeatable problems (they test the car after a complaint and send it to maintenance if it's repeated and it's tested again after repair and before being put back into service and if problems persist, it's taken out of service).

On the other, your observation that new parts are only put on after something has broken suggests that Skippy is not adequately pre-emptively servicing the cars before putting them into service in the first place, and could be construed as Skippy is doing something intentionally dangerous. If it's this latter, you'll see a lawsuit, eventually, when someone (else?) gets injured. Signed waiver or not.

Like all businesses, though, Skippy does not have unlimited resources. So, they can't just have capital tied up in cars sitting in trailers as spares. But, if they are operating in an intentionally unsafe manner (for example by not servicing the cars properly so as to save money, yet still give them a clean bill of health, and crashes and injuries result), that will be something that hurts their business badly in the longer term.

CW

 

No offense, but I think I've been pretty clear about my opinion. I'm not arguing with anyone - that's what's great about facts. What facts have you provided?

Who is we?

...and yes having capital tied up in spares is part of a racing school or arrive-and-drive-series. Even if everything is working properly, people will crash. You don't just send them home...especially if it wasn't their fault.

 

I will try and ask. Happy to hear their thoughts, too. It's always possible that Skip is slipping. Skip, himself, sold out a long time ago. And, the PE fund that bought it from him has also sold it, right? Who knows what the ownership, management and leadership is at this point. But, it's not good if what you say is happening.

If things continue as you say they are, there will be a lawsuit, and those statistics will be made available. However, Skip is a privately-held company with no obligation to produce anything. So, unless they voluntarily publish something, it will likely take discovery to get that information. But, it's your factual disclosures that infer Skip is knowingly putting drivers in unsafe (due to being unmaintained) cars and risking their lives. That's a pretty serious suggestion with major repercussions. As I consequence, I don't think you can choose to dodge the bigger issue. But, I have only my own experiences at Skip to rely on. And, the fact that thousands of people have safely gone through their programs without incident or injury.

Interesting.

The personnel who maintain our cars. Ex-GrandAm. If they say the car needs it, it gets done.

Skip's fleet may require a re-fresh at some point. I don't know the anticipated lifespans of their existing fleet. And, it's going to be a BIG expense for Skip to do that, which may be an issue for them.

Sure, but each car is going to get a daily visual inspection before going out. And, if there are issues with the car during the day, it may come out of service and go into maintenance. There's also a service schedule that the cars are (or ought to be) held to (by hours or miles). And, I agree that the mechanics are probably working REALLY hard and for not a lot of money. Racing's hard on crew. They're probably over-worked and under-paid. And, I agree that if they don't have the parts, what are they going to do but duct tape and bubble-gum the sh*t out of it and hope it holds (or take it out of service altogether until it's properly repaired). But, this also isn't an ideal world. Racing's dangerous, so they need to keep that in mind, but they've also had years of experience in knowing how far they can (and cannot) go with these cars.

Not everyone's going to get the freshest motor or chassis. Or, the newest tires. Or, or, or. That's just racing. Even in a "spec" series in which everyone's supposed to have the same equipment. But, if Skip doesn't have enough equipment to go around, they'll have to figure something out. Maybe they need to buy some new cars? I can't say what's in their minds or how many operable cars they have in their system. The last time I did Skip, I think there were about 8-10 cars on track. With a couple of spares in the trailer, maybe.

CW

 

I haven't had a single mechanical in a Skip car. It's been a while since I've been in one, though. And, things do change.

Regardless, thousands of people have also gone through Skip with a similar experience. I think the presumption would have to be that Skip operates safely and appropriately. If you're inferring otherwise, I'd argue that the burden is on you to establish that.

CW

 

Skip Barber is no longer involved personally no. I do not know him, but have only heard positive things about him.

It's easy to find out who owns Skip Barber - just google it.

Will be? When did anyone ask them to produce anything?

I can't choose? LOL.

I'll wait for you letter in the mail then?

Funny considering you just criticized me forming an opinion in the exact same manner you appear to have formed yours - based on your experience.

I'm sorry but I don't know who you are or what cars you are talking about.

What you describe is accurate at Skippy - the mechanics spend all their time responding to broken parts that must be fixed.

Race cars all require a refresh based on use. It's the only safe way to operate them. The lifespan is unlimited with proactive maintenance. Look at all the guys that race vintage stuff here. The mechanics can strip a car down and rebuild it pretty quickly. They aren't that complex. The issue is having the hours, parts, and direction to do so.

Expense? That's the cost of doing business. It's not optional.

Yah I agree there should be maintenance books for all the cars.

That's an understatement. The drivers have a fund so the mechanics can get some extra cash each week or at the end of the series.

Yes that is what they have to do sometimes. Have you ever seen how much racing tape is on a modern skippy car?

How far they can go with the cars? That's a really weird way to look at things. I would not personally want to know "how far I could go" with safety to minimize costs.

I just hope the quality people that still work for Skippy continue to find meaningful purpose in the racing community.

You can get cars that are extremely close in performance from other racing schools and also other formula series - school and otherwise. So that is just nonsense. You actually want scrubbed tires, not new; just with no flat spots.

 

Again, you just criticized me for forming an opinion based on my experience. But somehow your experience, which appears to be less than mine with Skippy, and your presumption, are more meaningful than my opinion based on facts? Just odd thinking man.

 

I'll respond to your other post, also.

I'm not criticizing you. In fact, I don't think I've said one critical thing. But, I am saying that if you're going to characterize the operation as unsafe in some way, you need to substantiate that claim. You can't just leave it hanging out there. You've essentially said that the fleet is old (and, at times, they don't have enough running cars), they're improperly maintaining them, and it's dangerous. So, you've decided to no longer participate. That's fine, of course, and that's your decision, but you're also suggesting that the OP (and others?) ought to "be careful" and, IIRC, avoid Skip.

You're offering some facts, which is something to research and possibly indicative of issues that need to be addressed, but these facts are not dispositive, because there are indeed thousands of people who've gone through the program without incident. Thus, your experience and theirs are at odds. And, I'm not the one making the claim that Skip is somehow unsafe. The presumption will always be that a business is operating properly, legally, safely and appropriately. So, if there's a burden of proof, so to speak, it's going to be on you to establish that the operation is otherwise. What you've done is the equivalent of making a statement. Whether it's defamatory or not is dependent on the truthfulness of the statement. Hence, what supports (or undermines) that truthfulness?

This may not be a formal court of law, and no one is accusing you of defamation, but you're now inferring in the court of public opinion that Skip is somehow dangerous or unsafe (beyond the risk inherent in racing). What's "odd" is that you don't see that.

CW

 

The CEO is a former co-founder of First Equity. However, as a privately-held company, the ownership structure is not available. Unless I'm missing something somewhere.

Well, unless you're aware of a current or past suit, yes. It would be a future suit. A plaintiff would demand information through discovery. However, there has to be a suit. Otherwise, there's no obligation for Skip to produce anything. They may have marketing materials, but it's unlikely those would be unflattering. Don't expect Skip (or anyone) to voluntarily share data. Especially, if it's not somehow positive.

Well, you're the one making the inference. And, it's a BIG one. You're basically saying that Skip is unsafe, dangerous and putting lives at risk. You can't ignore the bombshell. You rang the bell and can't un-ring it, now.

You can wait all you want, but you're the one who's walked the plank.

My experience and THOUSANDS of others' experiences. And, I did a quick search on the web for complaints against Skip. I can find ONE (dated 06/2015), so far, that corroborates your claims of lacking maintenance or that the cars are in poor condition. The bulk of the complaints seem to be around their "No Refund" policy. So, basically, it's you and this other complaint saying Skip is unsafe. Balance that against the positive comments. So, not just me.

That's fine. You don't have to know.

That's what mechanics do, though. It's their job to inspect, maintain and repair.

There is not an "unlimited" lifespan. Metal fatigue over time cannot be prevented. Proactive maintenance cannot fix all problems. At some point, the cars will have to be replaced. I don't know when that will be, though. I don't know the average age of the fleet, or what's remaining on it. But, at some point, the cars will be replaced. And, of course, the more you're using them, the faster they reach that point.

I agree it's not optional. And, I'd bet that Skip spends a lot on maintenance, spare and replacement parts and keeping as many cars on-track as possible (as a private company, though, no financials are available). That said, it's a business. That means there needs to be profit (eventually) to survive. Expenses cannot exceed revenues indefinitely. There is not a bottomless pile of money available to Skip. If, however, Skip has been mismanaged to the point that it has no money and is left with worn-out cars and no spare parts to keep them going, they'll have to figure that out. And fast, probably. Otherwise, it will fail as a business.

Since record-keeping is a PITA and time-suck for the mechanics (and slows things down when you're trying to get them repaired and back on the track), I'm not surprised that there aren't. BUT, with modern bar-code scanning technology, I'd think that a software and parts inventorying system could help them. Better than nothing or trying to do it from memory at the end of the day. However, jotting things down in a master log may be the best they can do.

Again, it's an imperfect world. If you want each car to be maintained 100%, then there's probably no way to make money for the business. So, maybe the business is a bad idea, but that's something different. Anyway, the mechanic has to prioritize repairs on each car. While a piece of duct-tape may be all that's needed for a minor repair on a body part, I wouldn't expect, for example, a frame to be JB Weld-ed together, though. So, if you're expecting that each and every car is going to be perfect (as they should be in a perfect world), you're going to be disappointed. I do think the "year-round" schedule Skip has places a difficultly on them. When, if ever, can you take all the cars off the track and put them in for major servicing? Those assets need to be out earning revenue for the Company. And, people expect to drive, when they pay and show up.

Me, too. A good group of instructors and mechanics. I sincerely hope that whatever issues Skip may have are being resolved, though.

CW

 

LOL! I'm shaking.

Again, LOL. You are one skeychy dude. I've been very transparent about who I am - just some random racer expressing my opinion. You, on the other hand, think you are trying a case and that people cannot express their opinion. Trying to attack me while simultaneously dancing around who you are, what you know, who you work for, etc. It's plain to see.

Duh. Proactive maintenance would obviously include ensuring all parts are acceptable. Sure things must be thrown away if they are in poor shape.

It's odd how you seem to know so much about Skippy, yet you didn't even know that Skippy told the racer in the video that his caliper had exploded and taken out the rear corner. Initially you tried to blame it on him and make me look foolish. Very odd. Almost like you blindly defend Skippy no matter what. Must have a stake in it eh?

I agree, Skippy appears to be horribly mismanaged these days.

There aren't? How do you know that? I don't know what Skippy uses to manage service - no idea; never even asked. All I can tell you is what I observed and experienced in the cars, over many months.

Yes, it appears very difficult to me to make money with a racing school. I would guess it needs to be someone's passion project. I understand that, even in the best years of Skip Barber (long ago when they ran regionals, nationals, pro series, etc) that they were still not making a big profit. I think it has to be a project for someone. It doesn't look like a business to me that will ever be very lucrative.

That's just another poor excuse. Again, having a system and enough equipment to ensure the cars are properly maintained and rotated in and out of service is just a part of running this kind of business. It isn't optional.

I hope no more of my friends get hurt and the winner of the championship series gets his 200k and continues on in his racing career.

 

Well, that isn't going to help you make your case. If I were Skip's management or corporate counsel, I'd be very interested in what you're saying. I'm not, and I have no affiliation, whatsoever, with Skip other than I've been through their program and run in their events. So, you don't have to think I have an ulterior motive. If I were your attorney, though, I'd be telling you to "be careful", too. I'm not, so have at it.

In your opinion. But, I'm not the one making the claim, and I don't feel compelled to tell you who I am. I like my privacy, and I'm sorry if you don't like that. I am also, "just some random racer". Others do know who I am, however (not that I'm anyone important). But, I remind you that it's YOU, and not me, who has put Skip Barber's safety record at issue. Again, ZERO affiliation with Skip Barber. Zip. Nada. None.

You can replace every item on the car (even the chassis) indefinitely, if you have the parts. So, in one sense you're correct. BUT, stuff is constantly wearing out. And, the rate will accelerate. At what point is it more cost effective to just buy a new car because the maintenance costs have grown to the point that the cars become too expensive to operate due to lost revenues, constant maintenance and stocking more replacement parts? Further, technology advances. So, at some point a fleet of aging cars won't be as attractive to customers who write big checks to drive them. Skip is in competition with other schools and racing series (as mentioned Bertil Roos is highly regarded), too. So, they either keep their product(s) current and in good working order, or they'll see a decline in their business. Maybe we're on the early cusp of that?

You post a video for the express purpose of illustrating that racing schools are dangerous. But, I'm not sure that you were posting it for the proposition that maintenance was the cause for that danger. When I originally read your posts, the relevant one was really about how you can still hit things in a racing school (IIRC). At least, that was my take-away. You've confirmed, though, that the purpose of the post was to show that racing schools can be even more dangerous than driving your own car because racing schools (Skip, in particular) may have maintenance issues.

I did go back and re-read your posts, and, to the point you post that video, I still think the context of the post was in a discussion of racing school v. HPDE instructors for the OP (although, while you're, I think, endorsing schools, you are also saying you can skin the cat many ways). So, then, an out-of-the-blue video showing a crash due to a mechanical failure is kind of changing the issue of HPDE v. racing school, isn't it? I watched the video here, and didn't go to the link. So, I didn't see the comments over on Youtube. But, to the extent that I think the video was posted for one intention, it was posted for a different one, and I misinterpreted it, my apologies to you.

Which is a bad thing. And, in the end, Skip's future (and the employee's livelihoods) may be in jeopardy if what you say is correct. But, it makes little sense for someone to buy a successful, on-going business and run it into the ground. Sad, but not unheard of. Eventually, it will become so damaged and the value so impaired that it'll either be shut and written off, or someone will buy it and rehabilitate it. By then, though, the human capital (the real ingredient to the company's success) will likely be long gone.

I was responding directly to your post. Maybe it would have been more appropriate to say," I wouldn't be surprised IF there weren't." Sorry for the confusion. But, keeping logbooks is a tedious, time-consuming and detail-oriented task. And, if you're hurrying to get a car repaired and back into service, the record-keeping is the last thing that gets done. If it gets done at all. That's just been my experience.

I've never looked at buying/operating a racing school, so I'm not privy to their financials,, but Skip has survived for decades. So far. Whether it's on the way out is yet to be determined. Again, it would be sad, but not unheard of.

I don't know what's appropriate, but would it be wrong to say that what they're doing is, in your observation, unsatisfactory? I also don't know if your expectation is reasonable. But, I agree. A well-run business will figure this out. Should have long ago.

We (you and I) agree on all points.

CW

 

I agree with this and everything on the first page. I have over a thousand miles on the Nurburgring in a C5Z06, and it was lessons and keeping my ego in check that kept me out of the wall on the Green Hell.

 

Cool! I race a C5Z06 in SCCA running tracks all around the USA. The Ring is my dream track. In my C5Z even better!

 

FYI on skippy since this is where it was being discussed. Another friend of mine lost his brakes in T1 at Lime Rock this past weekend. One of the most experienced kids in championship contention. He was hurt but I didn't pry as to how badly.

Just sharing the facts.

 

You wreck your Ferrari every couple of track days? And you've done it 4 times? It must not be in the US, or you'd be famous here.

 

or banned...

 

Once you start thinking about the consequences it's time to quit. I raced AMA for 20 years. Crashed and was run over in 90. Wasn't worth ***** since that crash. Didn't want to go back to the hospital or end up in a chair.

Was bullett proof before that, erven with minor crashes and a few broken bones.

Art

 

I have enjoyed several track sessions over the years. I did take 2 instructional classes. The last outing, I was hamering my car every lap and thought I was doing real good. Anyway I got low on fuel and pitted. The next lap, without me out, the car I was with hit the wall as a fellow driver lost an oil line and he ran thru it. No caution flags anywhere. If I stayed out I would of hit the wall as well. Made me think about the danger more. If you have a car with a cage, fire supression, 5 point harness and Hans device than maybe continue. I was driving a road car and did not have all the safety features.

 

four crashes seems like its time to hang them up