FROM BELTS TO CHAIN CONVERSION?

it's always difficult to foresee, what is getting historically important and what not.
Who thought 20 years ago, how much 246 Dinos will be worth today. Modifications are not appreciated on these cars over here.
Or worse; if I had predicted in 1990, that original, unmolested pre-73 Porsche 911 will cost EUR 50.000 ( S-models ) - $70k -someday / today, they would have called me nuts. Not to mention the VW Bus T1, of which certain versions cost around the same like the Porsche 911S mentioned before. Of course in restored condition. Any hot-rodded versions are worth a fraction.
There are myriads of other examples. But like said; who can foresee, which cars are getting historically important, say valuable.

I know; the US is more relaxed regarding modifications, but over here originality counts. The more older a car gets. And that chain-drive conversion company is in Germany.

If I want state-of-the-art, I purchase a current car.
A 308 is a classic car for me, as well as my '72 Alfa GTV. I maintain them and put a lot of effort and TLC into them. But I basically leave them like they left the factory.
I have to admit; this attitude was not always the same. Around ten years ago - I'm 45 now - I also thought about different modifications on my cars. So my Alfa has lowered suspension and wider track together with a complete set of harder suspension bushings. Things I really regret and which I will now eliminate.
Other minor things I did some years ago, like - for instance - a relay harness for the headlights of my 308 I will leave.

Best Regards from Germany
Martin

 

Now would that be before or after one gets the repair bill ... ;>))


Bob S.

 

Easier solution: buy a 430 and keep the 3x8 in the garage.

Art

 

40 years wrenching on cars of all breeds says your wrong. 50K miles and 10 years is playing russian roulette with these cars and is the worst possible advice one could offer anyone with one of these cars. Are you willing to pay the costs of damage if they dont make it that far??

The belt is the most efficient drive, that much is true. And while its certainly not bulletproof by any means, given reasonable service it is a very robust drive. Three years as recommended by FNA is probably overkill, but 10 years is absolute neglect as is pushing major service out to 50K miles. These cars are not Hondas and Toyotas. When the belt lets go, these are inteference engines and the valves will mash into the pistons, and the pistons can mash the bent valves back up into the cylinder head causing many thousands of dollars in damage. On a 308 with dual belts, generally only one will break and take out only one head and half the valves (if your lucky) and it can cause a minimum of $8-$10K in damage and repairs. 348's and 355's with a single belt will ruin both heads, bend ALL 32 or 40 valves, and cause $20-$30K in damages. At high rpm's, any of these cars have the capability to totally grenade themselves into scrap metal should the belt go south.

A chain drive offers no give like a belt, so when it jumps out of time or comes unglued, the level of damage is oftentimes far worse than anything seen by broken belts. In addition to the damage of a broken or stripped belt, Broken camshafts, crankshafts, timing chain housings or blocks pushed apart from the chain winding round a sprocket could be in your future. And they really dont last any longer, they just normally give more notice they arent happy any longer, by making ever increasing noise, whereas a belt just up and flies apart with no real warning. Or if there is any warning, its to sudden to stop the engine before the meltdown occurs.

I cant say anything pro or con about this conversion, except to say its really not necessary if you service your car on any reasonable schedule. I bet it has a neat sound though.

 

You are correct we are not talking about a Honda or Toyota. Cars such as the Honda 2000 rev much higher and have a cam belt change recommended at 105k miles rather than 52.5k miles as recommended for most older Ferrari's. Per a 40+ year Ferrari mechanic I know, he says every 7 to 10 years is fine as long as the car doesn't sit for months at a time which can cause the belt to develop memory and/or the tensioner bearings to seize. He said he had not seen a belt failure in decades since most shops went with Dayco belts instead of the old Pirelli belts. And Dayco will warrant the belt and tensioner bearings from failure if changed per the manufacturers suggested schedule or 60k miles; most Ferrari's up through the 348 had a recommended change interval of every 52,500 miles clearly printed in the owner's manual... http://www.daycoproducts.com/daycoweb.nsf/Warranty%20Program!OpenForm

 

The timing belt as used on the 308/348, is a different and very outdated design, and there is absolutely no comparison to the belt used on ANY modern automobile, Honda 2000, or anything else, save its a rubber compound/fabric composite belt. Its about as sensible as comparing a 60's technology bias ply tire to a modern counterpart. No comparison.

The original recommended belt change interval was 30K miles or 5 years. Beginning in the late 1970's, the United States EPA began requiring all automobiles sold in the US to have emissions equipment warranteed by the manufacture for 5 years or 50K miles. Ferrari had no choice but to change thier service schedule to match. European and other worldly owners, seeing Ferrari warranting the US versions engine to 50K miles, demanded equal treatment. Ferrari was also forced to alter the service schedule printed in the owners manuals. Just because a government beaurocracy makes up a silly rule, its does not for a moment change the makeup of the design. The belt never was, and never has been designed to last any longer than it was originally.

I would argue (and your being a Lawyer you should see the significance here) that anyone recommending to owners to disregard the factory prescribed service interval could (and in my opinion should) be held 100% financially responsible for any and all damages caused by a belt failure after the factory limits are surpassed. Ask your 40 years of experience mechanic if hes willing to pay for any damages on any cars that wont make his recommended interval. I have a feeling that he would change his "opinion" post haste if he had to pay for even one. Ask yourself if your willing to be held responsible. I propose that you would not. Why recommend your friends go not only beyond factory service limits, but almost twice beyond?? It just makes no sense to me. whatsoever.

 

+1 and very well reasoned. You can't simply compare two engineeering solutions and their respective service reccomendations on such a gross level as
two cars seperated by nearly 30 years.

Another car that surprises many exotic car owners is the original Lexus LS400 with no hydraulic valve lash adjustment (shims) and a cam belt.
Of course these cars were also not driven at anywhere near the rpm levels that an Italian exotic is.

Bob S.

 

LoL...so what Ferrari mechanic will warrant a cam belt not to fail in 30k miles? Regardless, if cam belts are so likely to fail in so few miles and so short of a time, where are all these people with cam belt failures...since such a failure would be so expensive it appears we would hear their voices throughout the Ferrari community...I have been actively involved in the Atlanta area Ferrari community for two decades now and only know of one cam belt failure...it was a TR being used as a daily driver with almost 100k miles on it and the cam seal had been leaking for a couple of years before the failure...in fact FoA had told the owner about how the leaking cam seal was saturating the cam belt for over a year before the failure...the owner ignored the advise to repair the cam seal and ended up paying ~$30k to repair the damage caused...but that's it in ~20 years...I know if my cam belts failed I would tell everyone I know and post it on every auto chat forum I post on...I suspect other Ferrari owners would do the same...where are all of them? I will create a thread inquiring of any Ferrari owner that has had cam belt failure or specifically has personal knowledge of such a failure...hopefully FChatt has enough bandwidth to handle all the posts...

 

The engine is part of the emissions system. The new EPA spec is no required engine maintenance for 100k miles. That is the only reason things like coil on plug and platinum plugs exist. That is probably also why Ferrari has gone back to chains on the new engines.

 

Hmmmm... I had never heard of that. I wouldn't say the engine is part of the emissions system, I would say it IS the emissions generator

Does that mean that all new cars sold in the U.S. now have a 100,000 mile warranty on the engine?

yeah, it certainly would be interesting to know for sure why they Ferrari went back to chains.

 

No, it means that all new cars sold in the U.S. have no required service on the emission system(s) until 100,000 miles

 

That was my understanding also but then how do belt changes or belt change interval come into play? Or are you saying that they do not come into play (what I was thinking)?

 

As I understand it, they don't have to warranty anything, but can not have service items on anything the affects emission, like the engine. So belts must be 100k a mile service life now….just like they had to be listed as 50k in the 80s…..whether or not it was the right interval.

 

I suspect all belts have always been good to 100k+ miles...FNA has been protecting its dealers with the 30k required service propaganda...

 

Better add 100,000 mile bearings and camshafts seals to the list. Just having one or two of the three last 100,000 miles is not going to do much good. A failure of any one of those can do you in.

 

sure and there are kits that use them for the 308/328. They have a rounded tooth instead of square so the teeth don't rip off.

Age is still a problem though....rubber rots and plastic stretches so you still have a 5 year recommended service life regardless of mileage. That is the major advantage of chain, there is no age service life, mileage only and that makes a big difference on low use cars.

 

I'm not sure there is any rubber or plastic in modern cam belts...I know Dayco belts are not made of rubber or plastic and are non-stretchable. And, if you do not regularly run a cam chain engine on a seldom used car, most of the cam chain is not lubricated which causes the links to rust and weaken...

 

What do you think timing belts are made from?

They have cords that could be glass, but appear to be nylon or kevlar, both plastics that stretch with time and the black part is some kind of rubber or flexible plastic.

As far as chains rusting in the engine, while I suppose it can happen it certainly would never be enough to be a concern. On numerous occasions I’ve torn down or fired up engines that had been sit 30-40 year and never saw any hint of a problem and I know of many many others that have done the same. Chains don’t fail with time like belts do.

 

Isn't ther a new set of pullies for the 348 that allows modern belts to be used to extend the life? I even think that it was engineeed by an F-chatter.

Scott

 

???? OK I think maybe you should stop now. Chains stretch AND belts stretch, hopefully not beyond the engine's ability to compensate. At least not while it's running. Chains are bathed in oil while running and you'd have to leave a car sitting beyond an incredible amount of time before the coating might disappear from the chain in that enclosed environment.

Bob S.

 

I used to think that, however, I pulled a transmission apart not too long ago. The car was driven some every summer for 25+ years. I was very surprised to find that all the gears had a non-trivial patch of rust on one side! Apparently from condensation of trapped moisture that got in at some point. I don't see why chains wouldn't be similarly subject to condensation damage.

IIRC, when researching the new belt system, smg2 found that Dayco used fibreglass cord in the original F* belts, along with kevlar fabric molded into the tooth surface for wear resistance.

 

That does sound like some moisture got in there and for 25 years did it's thing.

What was this a summer only car and stored in the cold?

You'd have thought that with a good warm up and a long run that moisture would have eventually come out with a fluid change or via the vent.
Somethings odd there. I restored a 39 Plymouth sedan that sat in a barn for 20 years and talk about a lousy oil change interval yikes!
It had sludge a inch thick in the pan. No rust internally in anything mechanical though.

If we're talking about an engine then I suppose if you did the same thing and used it to drive to store 5 minutes away for 25 years so that it never warmed up for 25 years then you're probably right. The moisture would never boil out of the crankcase. Not a good thing.

Bob S. (I prefer belts & chains)