fix it, sell it or part it out | FerrariChat

fix it, sell it or part it out

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by Greg W, Aug 13, 2017.

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  1. Greg W

    Greg W Rookie

    Aug 13, 2017
    11
    Carlsbad, CA
    My father in law gave me his 1985 Mondial cab. It has 88k miles all original, body and paint are in perfect shape, top is new, interior need to be freshened up. A couple of torn stitchings on the seats and driver side window switch is bad, but overall not bad. Now the bad part. It has been parked for 7 years so I towed it to San Diego from Long Island. I took it to the shop and they were going to do a major service, drop the motor, adjust the valves, timing belts and replace the anything that looked worn. The estimate was 5,000-7,000 for everything. That was before they drained the oil and found water infused in the oil. It looks like there was a head gasket failure before he parked it and now the pistons, rings and sleeves are rusted. Basically a total rebuildis required to a tune of 22,000. I was offered 15,000 for it as it sits. I can't decide whether to roll the dice and rebuild the motor are cut my losses and sell it.

    I really want to fix it and drive it but I really can't afford to put more into it than it's worth.
    Thanks for any input or insights.
    Greg
     
  2. gsfent

    gsfent Formula 3

    Nov 16, 2009
    1,096
    PB County, Florida
    Full Name:
    Jerry
    I am sure others will chime in.

    Given the miles on the body, and other minor items which you know about, I would sell as is UNLESS YOU CAN DO MOST OF YOUR OWN MECHANICAL WORK. Much of the cost is labor. The estimate you received is based on what is known to be wrong; with an old car that has been sitting for some time, be prepared for a few more $$urprises.

    Even if you fix everything, you still have a vehicle with 88k miles on the body. Acknowledging a fresh motor helps value, I just don't think there is enough value.

    Now, if you plan to keep and drive for the next few years, it might be a closer call. But if it were me, I would sell it, and then find a nicely maintained one (search here, some of the nicest cars come through this board) and pay $30 or $35k for something that is a known quantity. While no assurances there won't be some minor $$$, it is less likely to need major $$$$'s.

    Just IMHO.

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
  3. MaseratiMike

    MaseratiMike Formula Junior

    Mar 15, 2016
    350
    UK
    Full Name:
    Mike
    I would sell it, you are lucky to have that $15k offer on the table and even for a high mileage example which needs some major money spenfing kn it...
     
  4. Clnilsen

    Clnilsen Karting

    Jan 14, 2012
    63
    Celebration, FL
    Full Name:
    Chuck Nilsen
    If its a car you would have bought on your own and/or theres sentimental value, you're essentially paying 22K for a car with a known well-sorted engine. Especially if you can do basic maintenance work on other stuff yourself.

    The worst wear issue from miles on any car will be the engine, so you'll have tackled the biggest issue.
     
  5. Greg W

    Greg W Rookie

    Aug 13, 2017
    11
    Carlsbad, CA
    I appreciate the educated insights and I agree the high miles are a worry. In reality I would probably walk with 10k after shipping costs and whatever I already owe the shop. I'm disappointed, I was really excited to bring it back to life.
     
  6. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2005
    3,628
    Canada
    I would suggest the miles are not the worry, this is only high mileage in Ferrari world, but the full rebuild requirement on the engine is too bad otherwise an easy call to keep it going. I agree that absent being able to do your own work, the economics won't work. On the other hand, the economics of repairing newer cars that are depreciating does not really work either. Once you decide to do the project, it is best not to think of the economics. Is your 1985 the last of the qv's or the first of the 3.2's? The latter tends to attract a broader following, more power, updated styling still "analogue" in feel. While a Mondial is unlikely to ramp up in value in a big way for any foreseeable time frame, have you checked what has happened with garden variety earlier Porsche 911's? Hard to predict classic cars as investments.
     
  7. jgoodman

    jgoodman F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2009
    3,201
    Central PA
    Full Name:
    Jay Goodman
    #7 jgoodman, Aug 13, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
    I think it's a very hard decision you have in front of you. Jerry and Andy made excellent points. Some relevant points would be how many years you expect to keep the car. How deep are your pockets for miscellaneous ridiculous Ferrari expenses? Have you driven a Mondial with a QV engine? Do you like manual steering? The rebuild isn't the issue. The real problem however is there's many other parts that also have 88,000 miles on them outside of the engine such as bushings, bearings, synchronizers, shocks, injectors, electrical components and the like. I think if you're not a DIY'er, that I would suggest you sell the car and start over. You can get upside down on these cars very quickly. And if you have limited means, that you think very carefully about ever getting yourself into the Ferrari world. For me that never really mattered because I genuinely love the Mondial ownership experience. But it has cost me a bundle to do so.
     
  8. braq

    braq Karting

    Mar 29, 2010
    225
    Hill Island
    Full Name:
    Paul XXXcX
    What about an engine from a totaled one? I seem to remember a QV where one side of the car was dented. Wasn't that around 15K? And plenty of spares to sell to fund the organ transplant,

    just thinking...
     
  9. dfranzen

    dfranzen Formula 3
    Owner

    Aug 31, 2013
    1,577
    Ponte Vedra Beach , FL
    Full Name:
    Don Franzen
    There are some of us Stooges here in LA can help you get a cheaper rebuild on the engine

    Shoot me a pm
     
  10. MauroV

    MauroV Karting

    Jun 24, 2013
    152
    Italy
    Full Name:
    Mauro
    If it was me I would try and find a cheaper engine rebuild and take my chances on the other stuff. You say your father-in-law gave you the car so that's a really good start. Plus I'm sure your father-in-law and your wife would both be pleased to see you get it back on the road. Looks like a win win to me. You always take your chances with an old car but to drive around in a Ferrari this is still relatively cheap. Plus I don't think 88k miles is really that bad. Just my opinion.
     
  11. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 26, 2001
    29,386
    E ' ' '/ F
    Full Name:
    Trailer Swift
    I have 116K miles on my 328, so 88K sounds low to me. You can get a better price on the engine rebuild, especially if you can spin a wrench. To me, the family connection would make a sale undesirable.

    Any Mondial will never be a high-dollar ride, but they're undeniably a Ferrari. It's worth saving.
     
  12. srephwed

    srephwed F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 29, 2012
    6,450
    street,md
    Full Name:
    fred brown
    I bought a 328 long block and installed in my QV. 4500 for new,sold old for 3500. I think the most important thing to consider is how much you can do your self. Right now on Ebay there are some QV's for under 30 that don't look to bad. I have done everything to my car myself. Not because I couldn't afford to have it done. I just love working on my car. I hope you eventually find what you want and can enjoy it half as much as I enjoy mine
     
  13. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

    Aug 28, 2014
    3,097
    USA
    Full Name:
    Dave
    I agree that it boils down to your attitude about the car...do you actually want a Ferrari? With all that entails (services, etc)? If so, then even 22k (although you can likely do it for less) is a good price for the whole car with a freshly rebuilt engine.
     
  14. killer58

    killer58 Formula 3

    Jun 30, 2010
    1,189
    CA & DC
    I would restore it.
    But then, I've restored every car. I've ever bought.
    Bringing cars back to life is my hobby.
     
  15. ATLdoghouse

    ATLdoghouse Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 3, 2016
    368
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    Cody L
    As some have asked, do you want to own a Ferrari ? DUH (of course) is the usual answer in these circles. And if yes, could you buy one for 22k with a brand new engine and all else being in great shape as you have described ? Doubtful. Once it's fixed, could you sell it for more than you have in it ? Most likely yes. Even if you don't want to keep it, if your acquisition cost is zero, as it seems it was a gift, then either way you'd come out ahead either monetarily or mentally.
     
  16. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 27, 2001
    5,516
    Duluth, MN
    Full Name:
    The Meister
    If the engine is truly toast (IMO get a second opinion), it can kind of be a hard/long part out because thats one of the biggest $ items people want and if it's not viable it's basically a cool boat anchor. All the big parts go fast on a part out but it takes forever to get rid of the small stuff and are you really equipped to tear down, store parts, ship, deal with buyers etc.

    Quickest plan if you have some sentimental attachment to it would be find a good engine swap it out, sell the old one and get on with using it.

    If you really got an offer for $15k, I'd take that and apply it to different car. You can find descent cars with less miles, possibly even serviced for low $30k's and you'll be time and money ahead.

    Post up some pics and or more info color combo etc
     
  17. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    If you want an '85 mondial cab, fixing this one seems like a decent way to go. In the end, for $22K, you'll have a nicely sorted, fresh engine, no rust, car that still needs some interior work.

    Figure another $5K for that, assuming you get the seats redone, and now you're at $27K, for a family heirloom that'll cost you a couple grand a year to keep on the road, and $400 a year for insurance. Still not a terrible deal.

    Now if your F-I-L is the original owner, that adds a little to the deal as now you know the history of the car as well. If not, no bonus points for him being the 3rd owner, or whatever.

    It's a roll of the dice. If you were ALREADY thinking of getting a Ferrari, I'd hang onto it. If you felt lucky to get this one until you saw what it needed to be fixed, then sell, move on, buy a used Honda with the proceeds.

    D
     
  18. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    I am always suspicious when the shop that says your car is toast wants to buy it "as it sits"

    Does your FIL know about the head gasket thing? If he blew the gaskets, he would surely know about it. Head gaskets don't blow from sitting. Heads can crack though, if the car froze, but unlikely as the car would be a wreck if it was sitting outside all those years. Cracked head (s) worse than stuck pistons, by a lot of $$$.

    Is the motor locked up? A little bit of water in the bottom of the sump is not going to destroy the motor.

    If what they say is true, then you should take the money and run. Perhaps you can nego $15K clear and not $15K less what they have already billed you. The car would have to be worth $22K plus $15K when the motor is done, and that's not likely given the miles and the model. And the $22K can easily become $32K on a Ferrari. Believe me, once the pry your wallet open there is no telling how much money it will take.
     
  19. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    15,979
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    I commend all the great posts here. The variety of opinions illustrates how hard it is to gauge the 'potential' pitfalls that *may* await you.

    I'll throw my hat in the ring.

    If you do love it and want to keep it long term, assume another 10K-15K in costs to fully sort it.

    I say this because any car (especially a Ferrari) that has been sitting for 7 years will no doubt have a myriad of other issues that will need to be sorted. So it would be around 30-40K all in. This is a lot, but what you get is the satisfaction of knowing you restored it and it is fully sorted....this itself pays dividends as you avoid classic Ferrari car 'anxiety' as you drive it around.

    You must also assume that these cars will *not* appreciate but also have the potential to even go down in value!

    I am leaning toward what Russ is saying. Maybe you can say 15K clear as he stated since the shop would have done the 5K you already owe them anyway (unless they are planning to 'part it')

    I think it boils down to if there is any sentimental value to it. If so - then it's hard to put a price on that. If it's just another 'car' - take the 15K and run! - or put that down on a well sorted Mondial (which most likely don't have 80K miles on it either)

    :)
     
    davemqv likes this.
  20. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2008
    98,534
    Vegas baby
    I'm not sure the motor is toast yet.

    But there are other issues out there like the brakes and clutch, cooling system, and any electrical problems that happened in the time it sat. Once you get it running you don't really know what's coming next.

    It's pretty risky even if the engine is not toast. It would help to know if the motor was frozen or freely turning.


    Then again, this could be the cheapest way to get into a Ferrari ever. So there is that. At least its a Cab. Coupes aren't nearly as well loved in resale.

    IMO, I would try to avoid the complete engine rebuild and try to get it running again. Then, keep it for the fun of it. There must be a reason why you towed it all the way to San Diego so why not leave out the dream?
     
  21. alexion

    alexion Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    May 20, 2013
    1,303
    New York
    If the shop is offering you $15k as it sits, I'd ask for them to sweeten the deal so you can clear $15k. Their $22,000 estimate will cost them $5k and labor. I think that's a fair deal for everyone if you want out.
     
  22. Greg W

    Greg W Rookie

    Aug 13, 2017
    11
    Carlsbad, CA
    The offer for 15k was from an online buyer Alex Manos, not the repair shop. For a better understanding of how deep I am into it, I have 2k in the transport from Long Island to San Diego, 250.00 to trailer to the shop. Shop has already billed me $3700.00. I love the car and would to throw caution to the wind and bring it back to life. I will try to attach a couple of pics for reference.
     
  23. donkost

    donkost Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 1, 2016
    911
    Blandon, PA
    You know you want to fix it and get it back on the road. ;) You received a free Mondial with mechanical rather than rust / body / chassis issues. Not a Chevy, Toyota, or Honda, but a Ferrari. How often is that going to happen? The person offering $15K probably knows they can do the engine for less and is looking to flip the car. Like others have mentioned, see if the engine turns and if you can get away with less of a bill. Have you seen the internal engine damage (rust) in person? Maybe your father in law has more info regarding the head gasket failure. He might have been nursing it and that's the reason for parking the car, or maybe he had no idea at all. Plus there seems to be more of an obligation to get the car back on the road yourself due to the family connection and since he gave it to you, rather than just selling it himself in its current condition. My father in law restores 1940's and 1950's US cars, so the best I can hope for one day is a Packard with a straight 8. heh
     
  24. dflett

    dflett Formula 3

    Jun 24, 2005
    1,603
    NY
    Full Name:
    David
    Not sure if it would affect you emotionally (given its a family car) but Alex Manos will likely just put it straight up on his Beverly Hills Car Club site for $35k as is and maybe not even mention the engine issue.

    I know one fchatter who sold him his car and afterwards regretted it a little, given the way Mr Manos just flipped his car as is for a big markup.

    Regards
    David
     
  25. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2005
    3,628
    Canada
    How do they know if the internals of the engine are that bad? Did they look inside with a boroscope? Did they take a cylinder head off (ie. is the engine out already?). Maybe just needs one head gasket replaced, clean things up and you are good to go? Maybe the quest for perfection is not in order, just the goal of having a car to have some fun with for a couple of years, then revisit a fuller service and restoration prospect? A coolant leak is not necessarily so problematic as to require a full rebuild. I think the economic solution to this is a middle ground one, probably what the buyer has spotted.
     

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