F12 Paint Bubbling

So many car makers have good paint nowadays, so its definitely nothing too complicated compared to the science behind engine and driving technology. Doing the paint right certainly wouldn't be a problem for Ferrari if they put some effort into it. Indeed, they probably don't care as many have mentioned.

What would you consider as the current crop?

 

Cars are not investments to me. I drive a Ferrari everyday. I track every one of my ferraris except my ff. My Speciale has 3,000 miles and 2,500 of them are track miles. I've lost money on every ferrari I've bought. I didn't buy them to make money. I bought them because they are special and when I drive them, it brightens my day. It makes me feel better driving home in my ff after a long days work. When I'm stressed I look out the window and look at my car and it gives me motivation to work harder so I can buy the next one.

If you keep your ff long enough, the buttons and air vents will start to become sticky as well as the ac control. Mine have already started. It's ridiculous to have to deal with. I have a 2006 Range Rover that is parked outside and we rarely drive. No sticky interior pieces or peeling/bubbling paint.

I paid ferrari an outrageous amount of money for my carbon fiber upgrades on my 2009 Scuderia. All that carbon fiber turned white. All the engine bay panels, interior panels including the steering wheel, and headlights. They admitted using a poor supplier to make the carbon. How is that my fault??? They wouldn't cover it under warranty because the car was 4 years old even though they admit the carbon was faulty. Then all the buttons become sticky and needed to be refinished. It's a joke. Don't get me wrong, the car is AMAZING. And I have it because it's drive is special. But with an msrp over $300k... why am I dealing with above issues that aren't found with much cheaper manufacturers.

My 458 burned to the ground because ferrari used flammable sound proofing behind the rear panels next to the hot cats. At first they tried to blame me...saying I was revving it to high and driving it too hard. Hellooooo... it's a ferrari.

Quality is much , much better these days... but my point is that for what we pay it should be higher, way higher. And maranello has no incentive to give a crap because they can sell their 10,000 allocations every year.

The msrp of my f12 was $401k. That's a big check to write for a car (in my budget). If my paint was bubbling and the car required a re paint... imagine how much more that car depreciates. Why is this an issue us customers have to deal with? For $400k the paint should be PERFECT. My f12's paint had crazy scratches in the clear coat when I went to pick it up. It took the dealership 2 days to get them out. The clear coat was sanded down so much that I doubt it could stand another buffing.

Been a ferrari owner since age 21... my 360 is a 2001 and was my first ferrari in which I still have. I can go on and on about issues with the brand over the last 16 years.

I'm not over the brand. I love all my cars. In fact I'll be at the factory June 14th and 15th. There is just real competition out there that wasn't there before. McLaren didn't exist. Porsche wasn't making as many exclusive cars. There was no other real super car. The closest was Lamborghini and those cars aren't for me. I'm hoping this competition and the fact that ferrari wants to sell more than 10,000 cars a year will help lead us to better quality coming from the factory. They don't have a choice.

Oh and BTW, the new money folks you are referring to... very few of them will purchase a 2nd ferrari when they have to deal with some of the above issues. They will move on.


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This is a totally ridiculous statement. We should not be here making excuses for Ferrari's very poor paint quality, which is very well known and totally documented. I paid $11.5K for Grigio Ferro on my F12, it came out of the factory better than most standard colors I think, but I still had to have it corrected. This bubbling is totally unacceptable.

Ferrari needs to step up their quality in many areas. The time is long past (maybe by 2 decades) when they could rationalize such stuff. It's a pain and time consuming to deal with these deficiencies, and as owners we should not have to. My radio amp just died, which is also ridiculous.

But they are a blast to drive, highly rewarding and all. I have 3,000 at one year on the F12 and it's the ultimate car in my view. The quality compromises are not justified in any sense.

 

And that's what I'm getting at. A lot of us die hard enthusiasts will start looking elsewhere at some point in time when there is real competition... and in today's market it's getting close:





My GT3RS and my Speciale. Very very similar except I can guarantee you that the paint on the Porsche won't bubble, the radio works every time, the buttons won't become sticky, the carbon fiber won't become white, etc.

I took both these cars to the local track Auto Club Speedway last month. By the end of the day the Speciale had all kinds of lights displaying on the dash. The check engine light was on. The transmission was in fail safe mode. I had to use auto Enginuity tool to reset the car so I could drive it home. The Porsche had no issues. Both cars were running lap times in the 1:40's.

To me that's real competition that didn't exist 10 years ago. But at the end of the day... with all of the above said... I'd still take the Ferrari. Just wishing maranello would pay attention to these fit and finish details.


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Apologies, clearly you ARE a Ferrari guy ... 1:40s are quick times, you were going for it.

Given your collection and the upcoming Maranello visit, maybe you should say something. They likely don't care, but go for it anyway. Can't hurt to try.

 

My lap times at auto club are faster than normal because I've been driving it since I was 15 years old. So I'm comfortable with that track. I'm not as aggressive on other tracks.

I mentioned to them last year at the factory. I will again this year but it doesn't go far.

On a side note, what year is your ff? My switches are starting to become sticky and I'm not sure they are repairable like they were on the 360 and 430. Even my AC surround is becoming sticky and I think to remove the ac control the dash needs to come out. Not looking forward to that.

Anyone else experiencing this? Interior of the car has never been cleaned with anything more than a moistened (with water) micro fiber cloth.

Guess this is taking the thread off topic and should maybe post a new one


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It is not accurate to say that Toyota and others do not have paint problems. They do, and sometimes terrible ones. But, there are two other factors to consider;

1. Repetition drives quality. A million opportunities to get something right as opposed to a few thousand should not allow us to automatically conclude Ferrari is deficient. It's just a combination of how you get quality plus mathematics.
2. Ferrari can pay a much higher single unit price than Toyota, so paint is thicker, with better materials but crucially, not necessarily with any better process. Toyota/others' high volume affords them the ability to develop a process that's at least as sophisticated as Ferrari etc. and probably more so.

In the end, it's a very complicated issue. All companies struggle with paint, even the premium brands such as Mercedes and BMW have very poor paint finish these days, mainly due to the requirement to use environmentally friendly paint systems. It's rarely about lack of effort because paint is a massive warranty cost, a big differentiator in the showroom and an item that most customers can readily identify, except for those who are just buying a tin box and don't really care - a third reason why brands like Ferrari have more trouble with paint than mass market brands. Customers usually care more to notice.

 

With all due respect, these sound like excuses that are inconsistent with a high-end luxury product.

Ferrari is positioning itself increasingly as a luxury goods rather than a pure car manufacturer. The stock market certainly values it (at 27 x price/earnings) more like Hermes (at 40) and less like Toyota (at 7). As such, quality is hugely important regardless of low volume etc - as evidenced by the amount of discussion on this forum on paint, interior options etc. If Hermes handbags had poor stitching and the company excused itself on the basis that they have less opportunity it get it right because they do fewer stitches than their mass-market competitors, I think the consumers and investors would rightly vote with their feet. The profit margins on these products are high enough to warrant first rate quality control.

So, either it is a cynical but rational view that the consumer would buy the product regardless of the quality issues (arguably true in the distant past when the "you pay for the engine and the body is thrown in for free" maxim applied) or sloppy processes. Either way, even taking into account the huge amount of brand-loyalty, with competition snapping at their heels more than ever before and a market demanding ever-increasing quality from a luxury brand, it is a case of improve or wither.

 

I've just bought a December 2015 F12 and have the same issue on the rear vents. Dealer said it can be fixed.

 

I have had the same problem with my F12..twice now, in fact it is in the shop now..been there weeks.
What I can't understand if this is a known problem why isn't that little metal grate made out of aluminum?
How hard is it to just make a replacement part and ship them out to the dealerships to install?
We pay huge money for these cars, and get treated like animals.

I have a deposit on a 2018 Porsche GT3...

 

I had the exact same problem with mine. Had to go in twice after it started bubbling again after they tried for the first time and the problem came back after a couple of weeks. Was not really impressed and had not had the issue on any of my prior Ferraris.
Strange thing is my dealer said they had not seen it before...

 

Because as much as I say, Ferrari doesn't care. And your new GT3 as amazing as it is... won't be a Ferrari. Until every car Ferrari makes isn't sold they will never care to take care of customers. Just look at the member ttforced who has spent considerable money with Ferrari, and buys $20k worth of luggage with his TDF and they make the luggage wrong and tell him to screw off. Any other manufacturer would never survive if they consistently treated customers like this. But Ferrari unfortunately can.


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I think its a bit broad to say they don't take care of their customers- which implies that is all the time. I just think there is a lot of drama and there are some examples when things don't always work out. I know of other examples when they really do step up and take care of the customer.

I can tell you my F12 is now exhibiting this as well. And my dealer is doing a good job of thinking it through with me- as its all one large section- the haunches and roof. I asked the question- how do we know if this just won't happen again? Maybe we should look into seeing if they would make the grills out of the same material, or a material that is sympathetic. I don't have the answers just yet. I think this is something Ferrari should be thinking about.

 

+100 here.
I have been a long time Porsche and Mercedes AMG customer and I can't agree more with this post. Two months ago I took the plunge and I bought a semi-new 2015 FF with 4k miles to use as first car (I don't drive more than 5kmiles per year anyways). I thought, I'd give it a try. Absolutely gorgeous car, mesmerizing engine, etc. But boy, I couldn't believe how bad the infotainment system was, I was literally laughing before I got angry. Did I buy the car to listen to the radio? No. Do I except every single item in a car that originally cost $370k to work perfectly well? Are you kidding me? OF COURSE! I understand the passion of the Ferrari owners, but some of the excuses made here for the clear defects of these "supercars" are laughable and completely irrational.
And please don't tell me these purchases are irrational, $300k plus purchases better not be irrational!

Regarding track use, clearly an FF is not designed for track use, however, given its performance it is probably the only place to really test it. I drove a 2007 GT3 for three years on all the So Cal tracks, I bought that car with 28k miles, it was a TANK. I maintained it very carefully but with at least 10 track days a year, it never, ever, gave me a single mechanical issue. I never felt worried about pushing it even in 100 degrees weather.
After this post and seeing what happened to your Speciale which supposedly is track oriented, I am completely rethinking whether to take it to the track (Fontana as well for me) even once.

Bottom line IMO: german cars (at least Merc and Porsche) in general are immensely better built and engineered, the attention to details is not even comparable to Ferraris.
If all I can do at the end with my FF is to drive fast off a few traffic lights and "look good" in it, it will be a disappointment. I really, really want to fall in love with this car. We'll see.

Please don't give me any nonsense about Italian passion, attitude, etc, I was born and raised there so I know all about it... Still, it cannot become an excuse.

 

Great. How do you feel about the hit in value for your now repainted f12? I for sure wouldn't purchase an F12 that was repainted. Neither would a lot of folks without a significant reduction in price. How come the switches in my 360,430, 458 speciale and now ff have all become sticky and the car needs to be disassembled and sent to an aftermarket place for repair. Not even a 30 year old toyotas switches become sticky. Wanna talk about carbon fiber yellowing and turning white...yes the carbon they charge you ridiculous prices for. Or how about headlight cracking and spidering. Let's not talk about the **** $30k paint jobs that come out of the factory. None of this is seen in any other manufacturer. If they cared, they would simply coat their interior pieces with a product that doesn't become sticky. That's a simple example. But, we all pay and deal with it because the experience of the car is better than anything else out there. As long as all their cars are sold they don't care. I love the brand. But if for 1 second you think maranello gives a **** about you, think again. They are a business, and as long as they can make a lot of money and not care it will continue.


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I'm not sure these cars will have a real hit in value. These things can happen with a car and if they are corrected and documented properly, my experience is the value won't be adversely affected. If I were a buyer in the market, I would now know that any F12 could be at risk for this and thus I would be more worried about cars that were not addressed.

My experience is every car has its weak spots. They are machines. Sometimes it just takes longer for them to be exposed.

Interestingly enough, one of my employees drives a 14 year old Toyota RAV4 and today she was complaining that the buttons have become sticky!

I could also tell you stories about other marques with repeated quality problems. With one marque, we have owned 7 vehicles and each and everyone has experienced issues. I only stick with them because my wife loves them. Other wise I would have been gone long ago. Now we have ordered the 8th vehicle as a replacement and despite full documentation, they built it with the wrong engine!

 

Not sure I agree. It's a pretty well known fact that any ferrari that has been repainted takes a pretty significant hit in resale value and most buyers shy away from it. I'm one of those buyers. Take a look at many of the used cars for sale vs one that has paintwork on it. Being that your decklid needs to be repainted, it likely requires blending into the side fenders and the roof making a considerable amount of the car non original paint. You are much more humble than me. For $400k that's NEVER acceptable in my book. I've never had any car but a ferrari with sticky buttons. Never had paint bubbling on a car, never had carbon fiber turning milky white. Guess maybe it's just my bad luck that all my Ferrari's have these issues. Outside of that I still love the brand and there's nothing even close. Back to my main point I do firmly believe that maranello doesn't give a **** about any of us. Again, maybe it's my bad luck. 6 F cars in the garage and my dealer has to fight ferrari for pretty much any warranty claim.


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I know what you mean and in general I agree. But to be literal- you said any Ferrari that was repainted... how about vintage cars? Most have been repainted and have seen their values appreciate. Also, what about cars that get repainted at the port because of little problems that occur when the cars come off the boat. I forget the dollar amount but I think there is a law in the US that says if the damage to the vehicle is under a certain amount they can repaint that part without disclosing it.

My experience is there are both positive and also negative things with any marque. Ferrari is not the only manufacturer to use this material. For example, my BMW Z8 now is exhibiting the sticky problem but not on buttons, on the linings of the mini storage compartments on the transmission tunnel- its kind of gross! And apparently it can affect cars such as the Toyota as well. I have not gone to look, so it could be something else, but she said the buttons feel sticky now. And she doesn't eat or drink anything aside from water in the car.

I don't want to throw this all at your dealer, but if the common thing here is both your dealer and Ferrari, I think its reasonable to ask if, in your case, maybe the dealer is overstating things for dramatic effect? I have seen dealers (not just Ferrari) do this and also I have seen this happen time and again with business partners or people on the other side of deals. Wanting to be the hero is human nature.

On the F12, the answer is still elusive. The bubbling on my car is extremely minor at this point. But I know it will get worse. We documented it and sent it in. In the mean time, I'd like to keep driving my car during the Fall. We will figure out something as the weather turns into winter. I don't just want to repaint a part because I am concerned it could reoccur as the real issue is not the paint but the fact the two metals are reacting. So part of the answer here has to be how to address this? Clearly, we have to stop this reaction. And then we can address the paint side.

Coming back to value, I think if something is a known condition with a car, and if it was handled properly, and documented, I don't think it would be too much of an issue for resale. But I will admit that it could scare off some potential buyers. But I don't think it would affect the majority of potential buyers. And its something I am prepared to live with so I can enjoy the car with full confidence it is correct.

In my case, I have no plans to sell the car. I really do love it and plan to keep it.

 

There were some comments in the past here about a manufacturer repairing a new car before delivery. The opinion stated was that the manufacturer could do whatever repairs a car required and had a dedicated location for just such a problem. Because the car had not been delivered to the dealer this was considered "part of the manufacturing process" of the manufacturer. As a result the manufacturer was under no obligation to inform the customer what repairs were done to the vehicle prior to delivery to the dealership.
This very topic of damage came up recently with a 1967 Pontiac Beaumont. The owner worked for the dealership and drove his new car off the transporter in 1967. There was at the time an unexplained delay in the delivery of the vehicle after it had been built. The Pontiac looked fine at the dealership. However a restoration decades later of the Pontiac by the still original owner revealed a damage repair to the right front fender before the car was delivered new to the dealership. Certainly a number of brand new vehicles have received repairs before their first owner even took delivery of the vehicle...

 

Thanks! Very interesting!

 

If you have a vintage ferrari with original paint in good condition, I'm fairly certain it would sell for a lot more than a vintage that was repainted. I'm not in the market for vintage Ferrari's so I could be wrong... but something tells me an original paint car would be worth more.

Repaint done by the vehicle preparation center before delivery of the car, if noted somewhere on the records I think would still impact the resale value albeit maybe a bit less. However these repairs generally are kept confidential and don't make it onto the vehicle history. Before I bought any of my new Ferrari's, I paint meter the entire car to make sure no panel had been repainted. When I picked up my F12, had the paint meter shown a repaint I absolutely would not have written a $400k check for it.

It would be great if Ferrari addressed the bubbling issue. Let's see what they do however I won't hold my breath. Luckily my car doesn't have this problem so far. I hope Ferrari proves me wrong!

I have no plans to sell my F12 either. I don't care if the value drops to $50k. However it just sucks that we have to deal with issues like this. In 2009 I bought a Scuderia for over $300k. I paid stupid money for carbon fiber upgrades which were all made with the wrong resin and started turning milky white after my warranty expired. Add to that the entire interior degrading and becoming sticky as well as the headlights spidering and cracking. These are unacceptable issues to deal with. I spent another $20,000 having all this repaired.

At minimum, since 1997 (355 era) the interior of the cars become sticky. Ferrari has known about this for years. How come my 2013 FF has to be torn apart and parts sent to an aftermarket guy for repair. Why in almost 20 years has this not been addressed?

I could go on and on regarding recurrent problems that any other manufacturer would have addressed.

In terms of my dealer, I'm essentially the doctor for the entire shop. One thing I can tell you is people take care of their doctor. I've heard the conversations on speakerphone with them hashing it out with ferrari. The stuff I've heard behind the scenes is ridiculous.

One thing Ferrari never had before is real competition. But with McLaren, Lamborghini, and Porsche stepping up, Ferrari needs to get their act together especially if they want to increase their production. There may come a time when "all" of their allocations won't be sold.


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It really depends on the mood in the market place. There are those who would rather have a restored paint job. Others prize originality. Since so many have been repainted it doesn't really matter. If the paint looked pristine and were claimed to be original- I'd be skeptical.

Do the bumper and other parts show differently on your meter? I wonder if its possible to really know. What would you do if someone scratched your bumper and required a repaint?

I can't figure out why some exhibit this and some don't. Very strange. But the worry I would have if it weren't happening to my car is- what happens if the car is past warranty? Then you would have your worries about diminished value plus the uncovered costs of repair.

Thats awful! Sorry to read that. It speaks to your passion that you corrected it yourself. I had a Scuderia as well and they replaced the parts under warranty.

There are problems with other marques - and some that reoccur also. Each and every time I bring my wife's Range Rover in for service is a nightmare. And they tell me the problems come right from the top. And like you I've been party to discussions that are troubling. But she loves these darn things!

The nearest I can provide by way of how I look at it is- I had a Bentley for a little while. The paint job was magnificent. The included car cover was of the highest quality. Same for the battery tender. But I really did not care for the drive. I'm very sensitive to suspension setup and the car never felt like its mass was really under control... On the other hand, we've heard that maybe Ferrari doesn't have the finest paint job... I decided- you don't drive a paint job... I've had her Range Rover die on me on the highway. I've driven Ferraris for tens of thousands of miles, on roads and tracks and also in other countries. Not once have I had a problem with one firing right up.

I believe it. They better be nice to you otherwise you are gonna start ordering some very uncomfortable procedures!

I don't really agree. I think this is the fashionable argument to make but I find it mostly false. For years there has been Porsche. Indeed, Porsche has been hugely successful on the track. They have always made an impressive vehicle. And Lamborghini has been around for a very long time as well. They have had several cars with cutting edge designs- Muira and Countach immediately jump to mind. The new Lamborghinis are very impressive and have their own passionate group of enthusiasts. McLaren is new in street cars. And the progress they have made is remarkable. I don't think Ferrari is resting on their laurels- they seem to be building cars that are more than competitive with these marques.

The problem with the "real competition" argument is the underlying premise that these cars are sold as the primary choice. My observation is this isn't really true. They are sold as the alternative to a Ferrari. I usually hear "I wanted a Ferrari but..." Fill in the blank: it was too expensive, I had to wait too long, the dealer was being difficult. "So I went and got a..." Fill in the blank again. And yes, these are all wonderful cars, but in the end, they are not a Ferrari.

My take is there are good and bad things to anything, and you have to decide what things you love and what things you will let bother you.

 

this has been more and more common around those rear vents unfortunately

 

Am I correct in thinking that if there is a known problem needing to be repaired repeatedly on a car in warranty that problem needs to remain covered beyond warranty?
Thanks.

 

Had to laugh about German engineering. I seem to recall Porsche issues with chain tensioners, IMS bearings and GT3 engine failures. My experience with MB has hardly been stellar. Think ABC suspension and engine issues with 6.3 V8. Not defending Ferrari. If you want reliability get a Lexus and be bored.