458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

I would have thought that with McLaren in F1, they would be quite well known.

I'm in the UK and most people here would have heard of McLaren. Also, the kind ofpeople who care what type of car you have would most likely know who McLaren are.

 

Exactly!! I wonder what's their plans concerning Service Centers.

 

I agree with bdelp. Ferrari is the more well-known marque. It all boils down to this: people will buy what they want. No doubt there are pros/cons for both of the cars. However, Ferrari has a more "colorful" background and a deep racing heritage; something that McLaren lacks. Take it from this point of view McLaren is to Ferrari as Steppenwolf is to The Beatles. Steppenwolf was a "one hit wonder" as is the McLaren with the F1. The Beatles have recorded many songs; almost all of which have become famous. Same goes for Ferrari; almost all models have become iconic.

Plus, the Ferrari sounds WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better.

-G.B.

 

McLaren lacks deep racing heritage? It's only about F1? What about CanAm, Indy 500, and LeMans? Seriously, the second most successful F1 team ever lacks deep racing background? You surely jest, sir.

 

I don't care even IF the McLaren is better, stronger, faster, etc. It is not a Ferrari.

The end.

 

Maybe my wording was a little off. I didn't mean that McLaren doesn't have a racing heritage at all, just that Ferrari's history is more...recognizeable? For lack of a better word. What I'm trying to say is, Ferrari has a more rich history in auto racing than McLaren does. Don't get me wrong, McLaren has had their fair share in the record books and in racing history. Ferrari's history however, has more "depth" to it...so to speak. Maybe I'm not getting my point across...

-G.B.

 

Gill, for what it's worth Mclaren has quite an extensive race history. I think the lack of a real dealer network will kill the Mclaren in the US. I also don't see Mclaren finding nearly as many customers as their "estimates and projections" suggest.

 

Michael, I know that McLaren has a very strong racing background. I guess I just can't get the words to come out the way I want them to. I agree with you about the lack of dealer networ in the U.S.; that will definately effect sales.

-G.B.

 

Be realistic.
An average driver (99% of us) in McLaren will get his ass handed to him by a really good driver in 458,regardless of better (slightly on that level) acceleration.
Disclaimer:
I'm on the list for Mclaren and plan to buy it.

 

George- Here in the States, there are very few F1 fans as a percentage of even racing fans. Even less as a percentage of the general population.

McLaren is not a well enough known name here to pull in heavy sales without a heavy investment in advertising and infrastructure. The name sounds like a bloody tartan, not a car. So what would you rather tell your neighbor when he asks what the funny little car is that makes all the noise, McLaren or Ferrari? The former will get a puzzled look, while the latter will cause a knowing nod.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

$250k mid-engined exotics aren't bought by "the general population" - this isn't 2005 anymore. The majority of the buyers of these cars are 'car guys' and at the very least, will know about the McLaren due to the sure-to-be-constant magazine and forum comparos for the next year or so. Sure, some will buy based on "it's a Ferrari - 'nuff said", but I think people on FerrariChat are underestimating the appeal of the McLaren as the "anti-Ferrari" (duh!). Amongst buyers of these cars, between McLaren's racing history and the legendary F1, the McLaren name carries more weight than it's being given credit for.

All these arguments sound very similar to the ones when Lamborghini announced the Gallardo... "I'm not sure of the styling"... "Lambo doesn't have many dealers; how will anyone service it"... and of course, the most common, "It's no Ferrari". I'll admit, I've always preferred Ferrari's V8 to the equivalent Gallardo, but with the MP4-12C, I'm not so sure... I just don't think it's going to be as one-sided as some Tifosi are claiming.

BTW - here is McLaren's proposed dealer network. Looks like they've covered their bases pretty well for a launch.

 

Most of these cars will go to to people who already own ar least one Ferrari or a Lambo -- but not as a replacement. They will add this to their stable.

The rest will go to the middle east and the UK. McLaren is not got to get a lot of first time exotic buyers in the US unless they are speculating.

There is no way in the world McLaren will sell 6500 cars as they are planning for in 3 years.

After the initial excitement, I expect sales to plummet as they did with their ugly Mercedes.

They may make a superior performing car to Ferrari but so do others and I don't see Ferrari sweating much.

Incidentally, those who complain the 458 interior is bland should look at the McLaren. It's got Ron Dennis' fingers all over it. Functional yes. Boring absolutely.

 

P12- And how are Lamborghini dealers doing right now? Ferrari is letting people go at the factory because of less than predicted sales, and Lambo is in far worse shape.

Yes- I am estimating the appeal of an "anti-Ferrari" will be much lower than you seem to think it will be (duh). Why does anybody need an "anti-Ferrari"? Lamborghinis are not "anti-Ferraris". They are just another high end exotic competitor. Maybe in 1965 they were, but not now. I think I will buy a Lamborghini or McLaren because everybody has a Ferrari? I think not. How old are you that you think 2005 was a long time ago or that things were that different then?

I cannot think of a worse time to launch a new, unproven exotic than right now. No customer base except captures, 10 dealers postulated for the US, unknown reliability and parts supply.

Designed when things were fat, produced when things are very thin. Good luck to them. Would like to see them succeed since it looks like a nice car, but they are starting with the deck stacked against them.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

There's not exactly a Ferrari dealership on every corner. I live in New Orleans and my nearest one is 200+ miles away in Houston. It'd be relatively easy for McLaren to cover most buyers with 8-10 shops: LA, Las Vegas, Dallas, Chicago, NYC, Miami, DC, etc..

 

Gary- So then you would have a round-trip to Dallas instead of Houston. A bit farther.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

You argue against me that things weren't that different back in 2005? I don't know, but things like the economy seem to have changed slightly in the last 5 years... This has affected Lambo, Bentley, Rolls, and even (gasp) Ferrari dealers.... Remember, everyone and their dog's house (pun intended) was doubling in value over night and HELOCs were the path to a shiny Ferrari, even for the dog... remember?

Then you say now is the worst time to launch a car such as the MP4-12C (and presumably the 458 as well then)... That we can agree on... this is NOT a good time to launch either of these cars, but they can't just be shelved either.

I just think that McLaren isn't fighting as big of a battle as many waiving the Ferrari flag here claim. "Anti-Ferrari" may not have been the best way to say what I meant, but not everyone shops with blind brand-loyalty like those on FChat saying "Because it's a Ferrari" and that's what I was addressing.

Those people may prefer the styling of the McLaren... they may prefer the drive of the McLaren... they may (or may not) have a local McLaren dealer... they may (or may not) have been snubbed by the F-dealer... they may be McLaren fans in F1... they may have always dreamed of a McLaren F1 but find the MP4-12C a nice substitute at 10% of the price... they may be long time F buyers and just want to see what the 'new kid' is all about... they may get both... There are more than enough reasons for someone to pick the MP4-12C... maybe even because it isn't a Ferrari

 

Lotus is a better known brand in the US than McLaren. It isn't helping them sell many Evoras.

I'm sure they will make a really great car. But aside from a few rich gear heads, it not going much farther.

Everyone said the Ford GT would wipe out F430 sales. Great performance. Great looks. Racing heritage. Limited production. Easy to service at any Ford dealer. And significantly cheaper.

F430 waiting lists got longer. Trust me, I know. I was on one of them.

 

Very well said. People who want a Lamborghini are Lambo people. People who love Ferraris, love Ferraris. I can see people like Leno or Lingenfelter buying one to add to a fleet of hyper-exotics, not to mention the scores which will inevitably end up in the Middle East and secretive Japanese collections.

I look at this like a "moment" car. Something hot, like the LFA which competes against itself and will never realistically "replace" any other marque's status. The MP4-12C is no antidote to the Ferrari passion, but something designed out of a brushed aluminum space-laboratory by one hundred men in Hugo Boss without any facial hair as some sort of injection for those who want something "vitch est betta zan ze competition!" I'm sure even Porsche is rolling their eyes.

No doubt there will be significant performance out of this car, however, when you look for SOMETHING outside of numbers, there isn't any with this car. McLaren has a tenancy to be overly calculated and as well manicured as ever. I have a feeling it will all trail off when either half their orders are delivered and interest runs dry (As in the SLR, and that was even with Mercedes' name on it) or when the 2+2 arrives.

I just don't think it's going to be as ground-breaking as everybody is talking it up to be.


_J

 

As if the recognizability of the Ferrari marquee makes the 458 a better car?

If your point is that this will make the 458 sell better, then I agree. If you mean to say it it somehow makes it a better car, then I do not.

It will make it a more desirably car for those who buy their cars to impress others. In that case, save $200K and buy a 360 off eBay. It's probably more car than these people can handle anyway. And to those who grew up fantasizing about the day they could drive a red Ferrari, the brand means more than anything else.

But for those who care primarily about how their car drives? They have at least a basic knowledge of car manufacturers and their histories. They know how rooted in racing McLaren is. The deciding factor should not be what logo is plastered on their car but how much they enjoy it.


And I love how we're making the McLaren out to be some sort of sterile passionless science experiment without having driven it. C'mon. McLaren's last car was the F1, give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

Obviously, nobody knows what the car will feel like, and this is obviously a big part of the experience. However, not many people lusting after Italia know how that car drives/feels either. On paper, the McLaren is a significant technological advance (in the price range) over Italia. And not in electronics (that Ferrari does so expertly now), but in the fundamentals of the car: the car will be much lighter and much stiffer than Italia. If they properly build on those fundamentals (a big If, admittedly), they have a chance to deliver an unmatched driving experience. Light makes right.

Lambo is actually promising to focus on lightweight materials going forward, too, but there is a big difference between a maker of racing jewelery and a company, which was the first to introduce carbon fiber chassis in F1.

 

Exactly my point. Only a few will care that it's a "better" car (whatever that means).

We had this argument before about whether it's more important that the F430 replacement be better looking than the 430 or perform better. Most said performance was SECOND.

The McLaren is not a clear winner in the looks department. It is not cheaper. According to McLaren, it will not be built in smaller numbers.

So, aside from it going faster around a track that few will ever do, why should people pay a premium to get one? The McLaren name?

I don't think so.

 

Seriously, who cares if it's faster! Any performance difference there might be will be utterly irrelevant unless you take a man in a white coat with a stopwatch with you everywhere you go. The fact that it looks like it was designed by a second year design student will be more important to most people over the age of fourteen. Please, put your hand up now if you're going to buy the Ron123-MI5 over the 458 Italia because it's a tenth of a second quicker to sixty...

By the way, I think the names tell you all you need to know about the respective characters of each car.

 

I am a diehard Ferrari owner for over 20 years, but I have to agree with what you say, the McLaren will certainly be on my 'must look at' list.

The 'drive' is probably the highest rating requirement on my 'decision process meter' - looks, pedigree are all still important, but you make a very valid point about the F1, that was honestly the benchmark car of the time..... period, and still is right up there, that alone I agree gives them credibility and certainly the benefit of the doubt, IMO of course

 

+1000000

The 458 is better looking. Ultimately thats the most important thing IMO. How many people who buy these cars are really good enough drivers to wring them out ? Very few.

Performance stats are so close to be meaningless.