Hi All I am wondering whether all EPROM content in the Motronic 2.5 and 2.7 are the same? Or can it vary depending on exact manufacturing date or whether the units are destined for a certain market (eg. whether European model or US model)? At the moment I am contemplating doing a backup of the content of the EPROMs in the ECUs in my 1992 348TB (Motronic 2.7) but if there is already a backup been made somewhere this would in fact be superfluous (and avoid risk of damaging anything in the process). Being an electronics engineer I am fortunate in having the tools to retrieve the data (as well as a certain amount of experience - although it is rare to do this nowadays since EPROMs have hardly been used in new devices for some years now). The point that I am making is, assuming all units have the same EPROM code, it would be adequate to have a single backup from the two chips and make this available to all members in need of them in case of an emergency (copies from several units could also be checked against each other for validation). The next question however concerns the chips themselves. I have heard that it is very difficult to find auto-grade chips to use in case a replacement is necessary. I think that I have a lot of industrial grade EPROMs in my cellar from an old project but these presumably don't completely fit the bill. I wonder whether the auto-grade parts are really that important since the ECUs aren't actually subjected to any temperature-extremes seeing as they are in fact in the driver's compartment (also the driver wouldn't survive the auto-grade specifications in such a case...). Regards Mark
Hi Mark, I believe all the 2.5 chips had the same code, and there were three or four versions of the 2.7 code. The code is identical between ECUs, nothing different for the 1/4 bank vs. the 5/8 bank. Fcahtter No Doubt had a fairly extensive collection of code versions IIRC, although several of us keep code copies around in case someone fries an ECU and needs a backup chip. An automotive grade chip really only means that it has a sufficiently high temperature rating and that it is fast enough (<100ms); places like Batronix carry inexpensive chips and eprom readers/writers that work fine for our application (my car has been running on Batronix chips for years and I keep the originals in a safe place): http://www.batronix.com/shop/chips/eproms.html If you do pull a bin on your (I assume) Euro car, we can swap files and do a compare and see if there was anything different between the 92 US and Euro models code-wise.
I'm curious why anyone would swap eproms. Is the data in the new ones different (richer mapping perhaps)? Or do you worry about the data having changed from original factory data? Surely someone has made a copy of the eprom soas to easily verify the data it contains.
Paul The problem with PROMs is that they don't hold their data forever. They are probably specified for 20 years or so but there is always the chance that they could fail. I think that some types of cosmic rays can cause the state of individual bits to change, thus causing data corruption - I believe that these particles penetrate material and so can pass through the chip, causing low levels of damage, but enough to lose data - for space travel it is a much more serious issue than here on earth though and the chips used need to be specially radiation-hardened. It sounds very science-fiction but can be read about here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hardening - as noted there, the actual packaging material used in early chips had a fairly high level of its own radiation emission and resulted in unexpectedly high data loss in early chips (back in the 1970s) until the packaging material was modified to use purer components. Today, memory chips include additional redundancy that can correct low levels of data loss (error-correcting bits as used in your PC's ECC-RAM). We mustn't forget that our 'old' Ferraris are using electronics which, in comparison to todays technology, is equivalently 'stone-aged'. Imagine comparing a PC built around 1990 with a PC built today - the electronics in cars also don't bear comparison! Therefore I think that it is a good idea that there are some backups around since the loss of a bit in the ECU's program (I am assuming that the program is contained in the PROM) would probably be like a complete ECU failure (or could at least cause it to behave erratically) and it is comforting to know that a chip replacement could save the unit from having to be replaced, even if only due to the cost that would otherwise be involved. It is interesting to learn that there are several PROM contents (presumably) programs. This mey mean that Bosch updated SW during this period (bug fixes, improvements, or whatever) so probably the newest SW woudl be the best. I expect that there should be SW version details on the PROMs label - possible version number and date? Is there a list of these?? Regards Mark
The later 348 eproms had a higher rev limit, for example, and helped to contribute to the 12 - 20 HP gain in the later models. A voltage spike can damage memory locations (since a high voltage is used to write to the chip in the first place), like when an alternator fails - which never happens on a 348, lol. So far I've helped out five guys that either had fried eproms or wanted to take advantage of the higher rev limit. Replacing a couple of $2 chips is a welcome option to replacing ECUs that would cost thousands. No Doubt probably has the most comprehensive list, but if one doesn't exist it sounds like you just volunteered yourself! Here's one to get you started, 1992 TS (US spec) and I believe this is the same revision that was used on the US Spiders and SS models: Image Unavailable, Please Login
Hi All I have just taken out my ECUs (Motronic 2.7) to check the chips in them and make backups. However the first thing that I notice is that there seem to be various Bosch various part numbers for the ECU: the part number in my 348 is 0 261 200 457 but the part number in the guide to opening the ECU at http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=306424 is 0 261 200 489 So I did a serach to see whether I could identify whether one of these is the Motronic 2.5 (seeing as though I know that I have 2.7 and the other part number of higher (newer) than mine this was confusing me) but didn't get any confirmation after checking through various web sites. What I did found is a company who reconditions the units and they list both parts: - http://www.ecudoctors.com/ferrari-348-ecu-0261200457.html - http://www.ecudoctors.com/ferrari-348-ecu-0261200489.html In both cases they are stated as "fitting cars from 1989-1995", which doesn't help much, but it sounds interested if repairs are needed! I'll work through the process of checking the chips though to see whether there are any other difference... Regards Mark
The Bosch numbers you site are for the physical ECU unit and are different revisions of 2.7 hardware; I have no idea what the difference would be, but possibly a minor update to the circuit board. In my pic above, the number on the chip refers to the software version. Keep up the good detective work!
Hi I am having problems with step 7 in the removal process. I have pushed the tabs to the side of the connectors inwards towards the connectors but they don't seem to be releasing anything. After 10 minutes of pushing them in all directions and trying to get the row of pins to move I am getting worried that something will be damaged. I wedged the tabs and tried leveraging the top board but it is still held really tightly in place (it is otherwise free from the plastic posts and it should be possible to slide it away if not held at the front somewhere). In your picture I see that you have put the blade of a screwdriver behind one tab. I am doing the same but not sure whether you are pushing a longer blade down or whether you are wedging the tab to the side. I am wedging the tabs to the side (until them touch the pins) but this doesn't seem to be doing anything. If I push the blade deeper it doesn't seem to change anything either. Is there a click or something to be heard when it is released? Where is the release mechanism since I don't see how it is being held... Regards Mark
It's been a year since I did this, but if memory serves I simply had to push back on the top row of connectors, using the screwdriver agains the plastic surround. Note that the bottom two rows of pins remain fixed in place (soldered to the lower board) so do not apply any pressure against them or damage may result. You can also pull the top board away and back, which will also unseat the top row of pins from the connector housing. It is imperative that the white "posts" that isolate the two layers of boards are disconnected both front and rear in order to have enough movement between the boards to pull the row of pins out. HTH - just take it slow and don't force anything.
Interesting thread: I have the 119H engine (320HP), Motronic 2.7 Is the program of the chip different from earlier versions? Does anyone have a copy? Anyone know how to change the program and do some tuning mods By the way: Eprom means 'Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory' The program is erased by means of UV rays Don't let them lying in the SoCal sun To program you need special equipment Must be available on eBay http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTs8y8e-hIZ0M3JSpSMaK8PzaduFlai509dedAxKixKJHwAszJH
There are different versions, but I'm finding that the code on the 92+ chips seem to be the same across the ts, tb, spider and ss - this is for US based cars. The difference in HP (300 vs 312 on US spec) may be because of the more freely flowing exhaust on spiders and ss versions. The 320 HP Euro cars (119H engine) could be from the redesigned plenum - possibly all these cars share the same binaries in the ECUs. The major difference is cars with earlier chips have a 7200 RPM limit (IIRC) and later ones are 7800 RPM. If you happen to grab an eprom reader/writer (I got one from Batronix in Germany, very inexpensive) and save a copy from one of your chips, we can compare files and see what if any differences there are between the US and Euro versions. I've sent a copy of my binary file to a Euro F-chatter who contacted me earlier this week, hopefully he can find out some info for us.
Hi All >> I am having problems with step 7 in the removal process. I finally managed to get past this step. It was easier with someone helping because I realised that it is necessary to push the circuits board (connector) down (towards the middle of the connector) at the same time as pushing it back (out of the connector housing) - and holding the front clips too. Just pushing it back didn't work because it seems that there is something in the connector itself otherwise getting in the way. I am presently busy with the Gold Contact Kit from Scuderia Rampante so had actually left this for some time, but now I'll be getting out my old EPROM programmer to finish the final steps shortly. Regards Mark
Hi All Finally I have the details of the EPROM from the left main ECU (presume identical left and right though). It uses an Intel EPROM which seems to be called the UI08083MC (manufactured 1989) but I can't find this part type anywhere... There is also no indication of read speed. The serial number on the UV-protection label is 1 267 356 410 [ECU serial number 0 261 200 457 from 1991 348TB LFD in Europe]. I selected an Intel 27C256 for reading with my EPROM programmer a - 32k bytes in size - and saved it in Motorola SREC and raw binary form for the archives. These I zipped and attached to this post. The content could be successfully verified against the chip and looks good since I can see the typical boot location close to the end of the file (at about 0x7ff0) which is typical of the code used with Intel processor - there is a Siemens processor used but it has an Intel core (maybe an 80186 type - there is an Intel copyright on the housing). Maybe others could attach their program code and serial numbers so that they can be used for comparisons and possibly even upgrades? I read somewhere that the chips should be 100ns types. Can anyone confirm that? (eg. by giving the exact EPROM type found in the ECU). I saw a Texas Instruments part in a previous photo - the Intel one that I have in mine is a bit of a mystery(!). Regards Mark Image Unavailable, Please Login
Mark, thank you so much for providing this information. Have you happened to test the 1) SPC file provided in post 71 thread "Hyper-Technical: 348 Performance Chip Programming Review" with the 2) "Motronic 911 Editor" -- on your binary file? If so, I am getting some readings e.g. "Timing Maps - tab" that look rather incomprehensible according to my poor knowledge. For instance 1080 --> 56, 1200 --> 7 and 1480 --> 22 (another example would be the "Idle ~ Trim Map"). If the above is mechanically sound - so be it. Otherwise, I am wondering, can there be an issue with the SPC file, or the BIN dump itself? Please note that I am only looking for the 2.7 348 BIN as well as the correct SPC file and not trying to embark onto tuning issues. Incidentally, according to "my348.com" site the chips that can be used are the M27C256B-10F1 (100ns) or else M27C256B-90F6 (90ns). I have personally ordered the 90ns but have not yet received them to be able to address your deliberation as per acquired knowledge. Any input/insight would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so very much, George
Gents, Looking for help..... does anyone know where i can get a Siemens B57629-BD266320 Microprocessor ? In desparate need of 2 !!! Please help. Rich Image Unavailable, Please Login
