2021 F1 changes | Page 3 | FerrariChat

2021 F1 changes

Discussion in 'F1' started by intrepidcva11, Apr 4, 2017.

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  1. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    This is what I think as well. Bugatti has been missing from motorsport way too long. if not in F-1 then they need to go back to Lemans, but I fear the road car technology is way past what is allowed in LMS... or F-1.

    Porsche have always struggled in single seaters .... only one GP victory with their own car in F-1 and in Indy.... ( anyone name year, car and drivers?)

    Porsche have always done much better in endurance races.
     
  2. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Porsche is now in VW's orbit, which is competing against Mercedes on the market.

    I have explained in another thread already, that in my view, investment in F1 can only be justified for a car manufacturer, if it can translate in potential sales increase.

    Bugatti is in a niche market with cars costing close to $1M and cannot hope to increase much its sales, even with participation in F1: it took them years to sell the limited production of Veyrons !! The Bugatti brand is loosing money; it's an indulgence, but no more.

    But in the VAG stable, there are VW, Audi, Skoda and SEAT (they also have Porsche, of course, and Lamborghini and Bentley !!!) which have a large potential to increase their sales by more exposure.

    I think the board at VAG would need pretty convincing arguments to entice their shareholders to invest in F1 under the Bugatti brand, or Bentley for that matter, when the publicity returns would be far more palpable if the team was racing as Audi, or even VW.

    It's just my opinion.
     
  3. NEP

    NEP F1 Rookie

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    Samba Grid Girls?


    JUNE 27, 2017

    Rio keen on Brazil GP switch



    Brazilian grand prix promoter Tamas Rohonyi has admitted Rio de Janeiro is interested in hosting the country's F1 race.

    Currently, Brazil's race is held at Interlagos, but as Bernie Ecclestone left his post as F1 CEO, he warned that the future of the event near Sao Paulo was in doubt.

    However, local promoter Tamas Rohonyi told UOL Esporte that a contract is in place until 2020.

    "There is nothing (about the contract) that can be changed," he said. "After 2020, if there is privatisation (of the circuit) then it depends on the new owner.

    "But I think the mayor understands that losing this race track would be the end of motor sport in the country."

    However, he did admit that Rio is interested in F1.

    "The mayor of Rio, in fact all the mayors of Rio in the last 20 years, have asked us to go back there," said Rohonyi. "But with the contracts there was not even an opportunity to discuss it.

    "If there is, then we will certainly talk."
     
  4. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    Looks like another Tilke design(yawn).
     
  5. NEP

    NEP F1 Rookie

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    JUNE 30, 2017

    Magnussen welcomes Copenhagen's 2020 GP project



    Kevin Magnussen has welcomed news in Denmark that an F1 race in Copenhagen is in the works for 2020.

    The local BT newspaper said Danish businessman Lars Seier Christensen met this week in London with F1's new owners Liberty Media about a potential deal.

    "Before anything," he said, "it was important to achieve the political will and support of Liberty Media.

    "It was a very positive meeting in London, and now I will spend the next six months systematically gathering the necessary investors."

    The report said a street layout, passing city landmarks, would be headed by F1 track designer Hermann Tilke.

    "Tilke says it would not be a problem to construct an exciting track in the middle of Copenhagen," Christensen confirmed.

    Danish F1 driver Magnussen said when told about the plans: "Oh wow, how cool! I really hope they manage to bring formula one to Copenhagen."

    The government may also be on board, with industry minister Brian Mikkelsen saying: "When we go public with plans, it is because it looks more and more realistic.

    "I think formula one would be tremendous branding for Copenhagen."
     
  6. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
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    2020 Carlsberg Copenhagen Grand Prix, any chance Kevin Mag will still be in F1?
     
  7. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    He is doing a capable job this season.
     
  8. NEP

    NEP F1 Rookie

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    By not destroying his brakes, like Romain.
     
  9. TifosiUSA

    TifosiUSA F1 Veteran

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    Rio is broke. The olympic and world cup facilities are already vandalized, gutted garbage. These people need to get a grip.
     
  10. NEP

    NEP F1 Rookie

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    JULY 4, 2017

    F1 targets lighter engines for future



    Weight has emerged as a major factor as F1 prepares to change its engine formula beyond 2020.

    The next key meeting of the engine working group will take place on Tuesday, following reports the likely unit for the future will be a 1.6 litre V6 with two turbos and a single KERS.

    "I believe we have made a reasonable proposal," Renault chief Cyril Abiteboul told Auto Motor und Sport.

    It is believed all the engine manufacturers already involved in F1, and potentially some others interested in joining beyond 2020, want the next units to be 1000hp, louder, simpler and cheaper.

    "We are open to technology," Abiteboul continued, "but it should not exclude anyone from winning.

    "That is neither good for the best manufacturer or the worst. The engine should make a difference, but we need an engine that is relevant to the series and also good for the sport.

    "We need electrification, but we also need a better balance between engine weight and power," the Frenchman said.

    Indeed, while it is believed the simplification of the 'hybrid' elements of the current power units will make the next engines lighter, that is also why the switch to all-wheel drive has been ruled out.

    Abiteboul agrees: "Four wheel drive is not a good idea because it means more weight.

    "The problem with electrification is that it is heavy, and that reduces efficiency. We must find a middle road. Hybrid yes, but not too much," he added.
     
  11. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    I propose twin turbo (conventional turbos) V6, 1200+hp, simplified KERS and getting rid of the fuel flow limit.

    I quite like the idea of going back to refueling (provided they sort out the aerodynamics), for the following reasons:

    1) cars aren't fuel limited any more meaning they can push harder during a race
    2) cars will be lighter, thus more faster and more entertaining to watch
    3) the varying strategies are interesting to watch IMO. Slower cars can be brought into play again by using different strategies
    4) it'll be cheaper. Engine development cost will be less due to easier fixes to get more power. Obviously a car using less fuel but still providing power will always be better as they can carry less fuel throughout the race. Honda's predicament would've been far easier sorted as they'd at least be able to compete up front.

    IMO a V6 Twin turbo with conventional turbo's doesn't sound half bad, either. They'll be a bit louder, the drivers will deal with an amount of turbolag. All positives in my opinion.

    The shorter wheel base due to going back to the refueling will also be a big positive imo. Shorter wheel base combined with the wide tires and wings...and less aerodynamics. I already love it.
     
  12. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I don't understand why there is a need to impose the number of cylinders.

    Give a capacity limit, and let the engineers to choose the configuration.
    Each one (4-cyl in line, V4, V6, V8, etc...) have their pros and cons.
     
  13. NEP

    NEP F1 Rookie

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    The norm now in an ever increasing "Greenie" world.

    Less cylinders makes the cars appear more fuel efficient.

    Ford's flagship, the new GT has a Twin-Turbo EcoBoost engine with no V8 option.
     
  14. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    True, but I fear the sheer cost will increase once again...And of course the possibility of one team building a much better engine and be leaps ahead of the rest, creating a one team (man?) championship again...
     
  15. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    2021: Integral attraction with two electric motors or dual turbo?

    There is another meeting to discuss the rules of the new engines for 2021: the idea is to abolish the MGU-H by replacing it with a double turbo and two electric motors to be mounted at the entrance.

    In Austria, it will come back to talk about engines. The Red Bull Ring is scheduled for another meeting among the Manufacturers to which the FIA, the FOM and the four brands involved in F.1 (Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda), as well as Alfa Romeo, Porsche and Aston Martin Already announced the call for the BMW although it has a full power unit from a 6-cylinder turbo that is continuously being developed in the FIZ research center.

    Discussion will be the power units that will have to push the new car from the season 2021. The mass orientation is to take off the MGU-H, that is, the electric motor that exploits the heat of the turbo. This element overcame Honda and Renault in the long run, however, by increasing costs and reducing power unit life, complicating engine developments and deliveries.

    Someone would have proposed replacing the MGU-H with a second turbo to regain power values ​​(a thousand horses in the peak level of the qualification), gaining perhaps a bit of sound that would not suffocate at all. On this position, Renault and Honda push (and it is easy to understand why), while Mercedes and Ferrari would be more in favor of remaining adherent to hybrid technology.

    The two top builders in the GP do not want to go back to a F.1 with KERS, unattractive to the technological relapse of the series product, the only thing that justifies enormous search investments. And then we talk about an alternative: agree to remove the MGU-H, but why not mount one, or two electric motors to the front, following the concept that was launched by Audi in LMP1 and then Was followed by Toyota?

    We would therefore have an all-wheel drive Formula 1 in some laps of the lap and maybe, why not, you could get to the 18-inch wheels. Porsche would be willing to try to get into the Circus as a engines supplier if, as it seems, will be decided to leave the WEC.

    It seems obvious that taking this direction would not have the space for the independent motorist invoked several times by Red Bull:
    "At the moment in Formula 1 we have four different power units of as many official Boats," said Toto Wolff, head of Mercedes Motorsport. We are talking about important companies such as Ferrari, Honda, Renault and Mercedes. "

    "There are no other technical areas where a team can turn to four different suppliers, but if we can have a fifth independent supplier that can provide a power unit, I think it can be a good thing. But can an independent company provide a Competitive engine against those of the official houses that over the years invest billions to be where they are? I have doubts. "

    https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/2021-attrazione-integrale-con-due-motori-elettrici-o-doppio-turbo-926521/ (TRANSLATED)
     
  16. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Why would the cost increase it you choose a 4-cyl compared to a V6.

    An in-line block is cheaper than a V block.

    Also, engineers choose more and more 3-cyl these days, so why not allowing more freedom?
     
  17. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Cosworth, Aston Martin appear in F1 engine meeting

    Aston Martin and Cosworth made their debut appearance in a Formula 1 Power Unit Working Group meeting earlier this week, Motorsport.com has learned.

    F1 bosses and the FIA are working on plans to adjust the current formula of turbocharged hybrid engines and create a new specification from 2021.

    An initial meeting was held in March with F1's current manufacturers, plus representatives from outside the current championship field that included the Volkswagen Group.

    A second formal meeting was held on Monday, with Aston Martin, Cosworth, Zytek and Magneti Marelli attending for the first time.

    The FIA and commercial rights holder are keen to get a wide range of views on how F1 engine technology should evolve and create a framework that is attractive to current and prospective new manufacturers.

    Motorsport.com understands the meeting was largely positive, with the FIA running through the feedback it had received and presenting ideas for moving forward.

    There was a widespread acceptance that F1 should remain the pinnacle of motorsport and therefore engine technology could not go backwards.

    A source said the next step will involve individual consultation with the participants who attended the meeting.

    The FIA and the commercial rights holder will then formulate a joint proposal.

    It is hoped the next meeting will take place in September, shortly before the World Motor Sport Council convenes on September 21.


    https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/F1-aston-martin-cosworth-engine-meeting-926708/
     
  18. apexdc

    apexdc Karting

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    Like many things in life, it's not as simple as it looks. In general, the higher the RPM, the more power produced, but one of the the key elements that limits RPM is maximum piston speed, which is probably around 6000 feet per minute. This number or one similar to it is often the limiting factor in revving higher once all other issues, valve train, intake, exhaust, etc. are working at optimum.

    This becomes an element in that engines with lower cylinders have longer strokes to make displacement that engines with more cylinders. That longer stroke hits that 6000 fpm limit sooner and therefore doesn't reva as high, hence less power.

    To make this work fairly, something like World Superbike's answer would be needed. They give the four cylinder bikes 1000cc and the twins get 1200cc. Sounds unfair to the fours, but they rev a couple of thousand RPM higher and then both configurations make about the same power.

    But, I share your sentiment. Make the rules MUCH simpler and let's see some REAL innovation.

    If you are frustrated with F1, as most of us are, take heart that MotoGP (Formula One for motrocycles) is some of the best racing on the planet. The last race at Assen was so exciting that if there was ever an F1 race like it, the announcers and a majority of fans would have had heart attacks.

    I have followed both for many, many years, but even the F1 guys admit that MotoGP is where the real racers are.

    Back to F1 and the new rules.

    If I were Emperor for LIfe:

    Spec brakes limiting all to about three G's and lenghtening all braking (passing) zones.

    Pick one, smaller wings, larger tunnels under car with net less, but more stable downforce OR active aero with the cars tucking everything in for bullet shapes on the straights and then exploding into high drag multiwinged monsters as they enter the corners. Transformers with 1200-1500 hp! With superlow drag, they might be able to run with MotoGP bikes above 180 mph. Right now, the bikes are way faster in sheer top speed and acceleration, regularily hitting 230+ on the big tracks.

    No electronic driver aids of any kind. They are pretty close now.

    They have fat tires now, thank God.

    Limit engines with fuel flow, possibly set some equivalency formulas to allow different numbers of cylinders. I would vastly prefer normally aspirated, but that might be hard to sell. I dont like the hybrids, but I do think it is pretty nice they can fill in the torque curve on a high revving engine. Hybrid power should be limited to 100-200 hp with a system that is super simple.

    Make them lighter. They are getting close to LMP1 weights. Absurd.

    The bottom line is that a mere mortal should be totally incapable of driving the things at 70% of full tilt boogie.

    Just my two bits. Your mileage may vary.
     
  19. Lindsaymueller

    Jun 13, 2014
    1
    Is that the correct engine size? 1.6 litre?



     
  20. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #70 william, Jul 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
    It is true that with atmospheric engines, like in the Superbike example, more power is usually obtained with higher revs. The aim is to cram more fuel mixture, and you obtain that increasing the number rotations per minutes. In F1, higher revs were achieved with multi-cylinder engines because they had lighter moving parts, hence V10, V12, etc....

    But it's not so true with turbo engines, where you play with the boost to cram more fuel mixture, often without increasing the revs. The number of cylinders is less important then, but the moving parts have to be stronger to resist the pressure. In this case, shorter crankshaft, thicker block and bearings, stronger crankshaft are more important, and 4 or 6 cylinder engines make more sense.

    If I had to choose an engine for F1, I would prefer a turbo 4-cylinder in line (or possibly a narrow-angle V4) canted on its side, and possibly transversal for better packaging and low centre of gravity. It's the solution preferred by Gordon Murray with the last Brabham-BMW (although not transversal).
     
  21. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I have been equally fan of motor racing and motorcycle racing all my life.
     
  22. NEP

    NEP F1 Rookie

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    Some others as well. A good sign for the future.

    "But what was surprising about this week's meeting was the number of interested parties in attendance.

    "There were surprising participants like Porsche, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Cosworth, Ilmor and AVL," Wolff is quoted by Speed Week.

    Other sources report that Audi, Alfa Romeo, Zytek and others were also there."
     
  23. CSM0TION

    CSM0TION Formula Junior

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    No harm in showing up. I doubt half of them are at all serious.
     
  24. apexdc

    apexdc Karting

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    #74 apexdc, Jul 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
    Hi William, You are absolutely right! In my subconscious desire to get rid of turbos, I neglected to clarify that turbos change all the atmospheric rules. Oddly, under the atmospheric engines, those of similar displacement from the fifties and current engines make similiar hp at similar rpm. But the new engines rev much higher while the old ones are at their peak.

    Although my preference would be for a ten or twelve cylinder normally aspirated engine, it is hard to argue with the violence available from a four under massive boost. BMW was getting something north of 1300 hp out of those fours in qualifying!
     
  25. NEP

    NEP F1 Rookie

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    JULY 28, 2017

    Ilmor, Porsche eye F1 for 2021



    Cosworth, Porsche and now Ilmor are all eyeing a potential move into F1 after 2020.

    2021 is when new, cheaper, simpler and louder engines make their debut at the conclusion of the controversial current 'power unit' era.

    Cosworth has this week signalled its interest in re-joining the sport it was once synonymous with, and renowned F1 engine guru Mario Illien has now followed suit.

    The Ilmor founder told Blick newspaper that a project for 2021 is possible "depending on the regulations, the cost and finding a partner".

    As for Porsche, 2015 Le Mans winner Nico Hulkenberg said in Hungary that it's a shame the Volkswagen brand has decided to quit the top sports car category LMP1.

    "They're probably looking for a new challenge now. It was only down to two manufacturers, so they probably need something new, something more challenging," said the German.
     

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