Ferrari 328 primer, version 0.1 (a work in progress)

[Tillman]

Note: this is a preliminary FAQ for the prospective 328 owner. Comments and corrections are appreciated

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Ferrari 328 primer, version 0.1 (a work in progress)


Congratulations! You've decided you want a Ferrari, and have decided that the 328 is your style.

Now you have questions, right? Believe it or not, there's a ton of previously-posted information here on Ferrarichat that might help you. All you have to do is use the search function. See the "search" in the blue bar on the upper left? Click there, and type in the following:

328 maintenance

328 buying advice

328 major service

328 performance


You'll see there's a ton of threads on the 328. Let's try to narrow down some of the collected wisdom on 328s.

Section 1: The basic car

Q: What are the differences in the year models?

A: Between the 86-88 models, there's not really a major difference. There are running changes as shown below. The major update came in mid 88 with suspension changes that preceeded the installation of antilock braking systems in the 89 models. With the new suspension came convex wheels, replacing the previous concave ones.

Originally Posted by Dave328GTB

Changes by VIN:
Here are some of the major updates according to parts manual:
Door design (inside handles moved, etc.) #71597. Further inside door changes plus horse on mirror (US cars) #75929.
valves # 71381
valve seats #76666
oil cooler #75272 (plus associated parts)
Major changes at 76626 (88.5 cars)include all suspension parts (forks, shocks, sway bars, etc.) brakes, steering rack and wheels which have more offset than before. BTW these wheels are not the same as Mondial’s in width and offset. Also the front bonnet was changed eliminating the hood bending button strut.
ABS does not give a beginning number.
The air box and inlet tube was changed 78069 which I believe coincides with 89 model year in US.
With ABS came another front bonnet and changes under it.
Front and rear shocks were changed again at #78613.
The seats and adjustment mechanisms were completely changed at sometime (no VIN# given)
There are numerous other changes throughout production, but these are the biggies.

Information provided by a couple of different sources suggests the latest 328 VINs known were:
GTB: 83017 GTS: 83092

Unlike US vehicles, Euro car “model years” are based on calendar years. US “model years” are released in the Fall of the prior year (i.e.: you can buy a US “model year” 2004 vehicle in the Fall of 2003). Here are examples from the list:
Ex. 1: 74979 is a Euro car registered as a 1987 model year. 74753 (earlier VIN) is a US car registered as a 1988 model year (production date 10/87).
Ex. 2: 79043 is a Euro car registered as a 1988 model year. 78881 (earlier VIN) is a US car registered as a 1989 model year (production date 10/88).

Q. What about this 88.5 model year, and the premium for 1989 model year cars?

A: There seems to be a slight premium for post 88.5 cars. Part of this is likely due to the perceived advantages of the ABS system. Another part is simply the fact that newer cars carry a price advantage against older cars regardless of the brand. A third part of the premium is due to a number of very-low mileage 1989 328s that are on the market. These cars were set aside during the Ferrari boom on the late 80s as an investment, and tend to be priced much higher.


Q. But the ABS -- is it worth that much more?

A: This will be a personal decision. It is a very early system. Here's a couple of reviews/comments from owners of ABS-equipped cars

Originally Posted by Gary Res

I disagree with your assumption that ABS is a problem on the track. True, if we're talking about recent cars. The ABS on the 1989 GTS is not in the same league as any new car, but I think the purpose is really on wet ground. It does not kick in as easy as a new car. On new sports cars that I have had on the track, you can turn the ABS off, not true with the 1989 GTS. Buy the 1989 for "other" reasons. Not because the ABS. The ABS on this model really make it a non-event. Sometimes, if I'm on sand (not knowing), and I come to a stop sign, it slightly kicks in. It still allows wheel skid. Its really the 1st generation of ABS. I don't know the numbers for stopping distance between a 1989 and a 1988, but I bet its really a non event.

Originally Posted by hardtop

When I was lookiing for my GTB, I wanted an earlier car because of the wheels. But I was always curious about the suspension change, so I bought the 89 and I'm glad I did. In absolute terms, I'm sure the handling is not all that much better than earlier cars, but it feels better. The steering is more responsive and there is less initial understeer. There is much less nose dive under braking. The car just feels tighter. As far as the brakes go, I could take them or leave them. I have had them kick in a few times on the track (as recently as Saturday) but they seem to work well and I never thought they cut in too soon, especially compared to other early systems I had the misfortune of using. Overall, I rate the brakes highly for an 80's vintage car. I have used them on the track a number of times, zero fade, never any kind of drama. Like most, if not, all Ferrari brakes, they work better when hot. I bought a set of 17 inch speedlines for mine which offered more grip, but they weigh about 5 lbs more per wheel and that extra unsprung weight had a detrimental effect on the ride and road handling, so I have been using the originals. For anyone who gets aftermarket wheels, I would be sure to keep the overall weight close.

Q: What kind of performance does the 328 offer? Will it keep up with today's sportscars?

A: The 328 is equipped with a 3.2 litre all-aluminum V8 that puts out either 260 HP in US trim, or 270 HP in euro trim with the higher compression pistons. That was a lot of power 19 years ago, but there are now minivans that have equivalent horsepower ratings. Still, the Ferrari will take about 6 seconds to reach 60 MPH, and will run happily over 100 all day long. To get the best performance out of the 3.2 motor you really need to keep it above 5000 RPM. Luckily, that's where it sounds best!

For a discussion of the 328 and more modern cars, see "Has my dream of 308/328 ownership become irrelevant?" and "Performance difference in a 308/328 and a 350Z..."

Originally Posted by greg328

The Z is FAST, and corners like a slot car. My carb 308 is --not that far behind-- in go-go power. 240 versus 290, 50 horses do make a difference, and it's noticeable, but really, the 308 is plenty quick to get in all kinds of trouble if I wanted to.

The 308 handling took some getting used to. The steering is manual, so it's not as *smooth* as the 350Z. It feels like a race car steering rack. It seems to need more attention through a corner, as opposed to the Z, where I can just carve a fast corner without really thinking about it.

That's really the difference between these 2 cars--one really rewards you for your effort, but it does require effort and concentration. The other is just so modern and capable, it almost does all the work for you! Still a pleasure, though...

Q: I've heard about this strange seating position. I'm a tall guy, can I fit in one?

A: See "How tall is too tall?"

Originally Posted by Auraraptor

This comes up often. Fact is everyone is different...some have longer legs, some longer midsection, others long necks.

BTW I am 6'3" and fit 'ok' in my 328.

Q: Ok, what about those of us with a few extra pounds?

A: The author of this document is 5'9" and weighs 250 lbs. If I can get in, you probably can too...




Section 2: Mechanical

Q: What does it cost to run one of these?

A: "It depends."

Ok, that's a bit of a cop-out, but it really is going to depend on a few things: initial condition of the car, your driving habits, the environment you're in, etc. The key thing is to remember that the youngest 328 is still 16 years old, so as on any older car things are going to need repair. Even if the car has been stored and has almost no miles on it, rubber ages and seals dry out. There is a canard that is thrown around "A Ferrari costs $1/mile to run." While not necessarily true, some people use that as a quick guide.

Q: What about these minor and major services?

A: In brief, a minor service is one in which the fluids are changed, the car is given a good look-over, and the valves are adjusted. A major service includes all of that, plus changing the camshaft belts and tensioners. Many people also rebuild the waterpump during a major service. The specific list of required maintenance is included in the owner's manual. A copy of the owner's manual is available in pdf format at http://ferrari.jenkins.org/books/328_owners.pdf

See also How much do you spend each year?

Q: And the mileage/time requirments for these services?

A: This is almost a religious/political argument. The big problem is that Ferrari has published conflicting information about the cambelt replacement schedule over the years, despite the fact that the same belt is used. The rule of thumb in the States seems to be 30,000 miles/5 years, while in the UK dealers are quoting every 2 years. Ferrari's manual for the States clearly shows 52,500 miles for a cambelt replacement.

The reason this is such a hot button is that the labor costs of replacing those belts are high (much higher here in the States than abroad), and that the effects are so catastrophic if they fail. Because the Ferrari V8 motor is an "interference" motor, the valves and the pistons actually share space, cycling out of each others' way. If the timing belt breaks or skips teeth, the valves and pistons will meet and result in broken and bent parts. This is a very expensive repair.

See "CAMBELT REPLACEMENT EXPOSED" for a rather lengthy discussion of cambelt replacement.

Q: What does a major service cost?

A: Once again, "it depends". The cost will vary depending on whether you take your car to a Ferrari dealer, or to an independent mechanic. It will also depend on what else you do while it's in the shop. It's very easy to get into the "might as well" mode and spend much more than the service alone would require. Also, the definition of a major service may vary from shop to shop. For some, it's just a matter of changing the belts, adjusting the valves, changing the fluid and buttoning it back up. Other shops might take a more extensive approach it the maintenance.

This post from a shop principal gives a great perspective:

Originally Posted by Lolaman

I think ~$2500 was the norm seven or eight years ago. For my shop, that meant changing timing belts, accessory drive belts, seals, cam cover gaskets, thermostat, all rubber hoses (including fuel crossover lines), all fluids, all filters, remedy minor electrical faults, full alignment and wheel balance, chassis lubrication, hood and engine lid struts and the minor tiddling that took time, but resulted in a much more pleasant "daily driving experience."

Now, we quote ~$3800-$4500 and have room to include tensioner bearings and water pump (if there's any doubt) to keep from having to do anything between the service date and the next service date except (hopefully) for oil changes. We use the OEM "green" gaskets that are more expensive, but last far longer as well as other tested, proven parts. This figure does not generally include brake pads, plug wires, distributor caps and other parts that are not normally thought of as regularly (marked only as "to be inspected" on Ferrari's maintenance coupon) replaced items.

The service intervals are so misunderstood. People ask about changing cam belts all the time, but in reality, this is all about "messa a punto," bringing the car "to a point" where everything works the way it is supposed to. Because so many cars sit for extended periods of time, a "big" (Ferrari recommended 30K interval) service should be done every four to seven years, regardless of mileage. (IMHO)

Shadetree, Tim Stanford, Tom Jones, myself and many other independents have driven hundreds of these cars and can tell you within 300 yards what has been done, needs to be done and can evaluate where and how every aspect of the car stacks up against other, well preserved examples.

For example, we had a fellow bring a very nice higher mileage carb 308 in for "a belt change." We asked him whether he was doing this for preventative maintenance or to resolve a running problem, he said because his friends told him it was important to do. We did a belt change. It was clear someone had not taken the cam covers off before because of crude, painted reference marks on the sprockets and covers. With the new belts, the car ran like crap, so off came the covers and it was clear that the front bank was off on both cams. That corrected, much better, but ignition misfire past 3800 RPM. Take the distributors apart, remove R2 and replace R1 and voila! Car runs like a million bucks. The fellow was blown away, said the car had never driven like that! We had originally said ~$880-$1100 to JUST change the belts, turned into ~$2400, but he was overjoyed and we were (partially) made whole for going on a wild goose chase to track down a running problem rather than to perform regular maintenance. My very experienced tech, Rod Atkinson, said "no more" a la carte procedures! <grin>

Of course, I've also missed the boat with Paul's black Mondial 8 on the diagnosis of a vacuum leak (and I profusely apologized), but after twenty-five years of doing this, that's going to happen. We all can learn, and that is perhaps the greatest resource of this particular board.

The "big service" transaction, first and foremost, must be an enterprise grounded in mutual trust and respect between the shop and the car owner. It is so all-encompassing (or should be) that the final number will always reflect the range and scope of pre-existing problems, the expectations and experience of the owner and the experience of the tech and/or shop principal. It's as much an "education" for the often new owner as it is needed attention to the car. That's why I like doing them so much! It's fun! For that reason alone (along with geographic and infrastructure costs) the numbers are all over the map. Just make sure you get what you pay for.

-Peter (must have had too much coffee this morning!)

Q: What is this talk about test pipes?

A: The 328 has a dual ignition system, which means that each bank of the motor acts as a separate 4 cylinder engine. It is possible to have an ignition failure on just one bank. If this happens, raw fuel can be pumped through the bad bank and end up in the catalytic converter.

The catalytic converter runs much much hotter than the rest of the exhaust system, and so the fuel can ignite inside the cat. There is a warning light in the cockpit if the temperature gets too high, known as the "slow-down light." Operation of the light is described in the owner's manual.

Some people wish to reduce the threat of cat fires and replace the cat with a piece of plain tubing or sometimes a resonator. Because these pipes are technically illegal, they are sold for "testing purposes" and are thus known as "test pipes." Many of the installations also result in a louder or deeper exhaust note.

Q: What is a Tubi?

A: A Tubi is one brand of aftermarket exhaust for the 328. Many like the sound of the Tubi exhaust, others like competitors such as Ansa, Stebro, Quicksilver, and many more.

Q; Are they reliable?

A: If well maintained, the 328 is a mechanically reliable car. Some auxillary systems such as the A/C, accessories, window lifts are sometimes problematic. The waterpump on the car also tends to need close monitoring.

See 328 XC x 2 for an account of a 328 owner who drove across Canada -- twice!

Originally Posted by Glen_Lloyd

... over 20,000 km's coast to coast, from sea level to over 7000 feet of elevation and the car made it without breaking. I don't think I would do it again any time soon but if you love your Ferrari...DRIVE IT.

Q: What about high mileage cars?

A: The Ferrari world is a strange place. Here, a car that has travelled 2500 miles a year is considered high mileage, while any other brand would consider it low mileage. The undeniable fact is that Ferraris average much lower mileage than normal cars, and that plays into the purchasing decision. It is harder to sell a higher mileage car, and resale will usually be lower. That may be offset by a lower purchase price when you get the car.

Higher mileage cars will tend to show more wear in the interior and may need suspension refreshes earlier than low mileage cars. On the positive side, the motor in the 328 is very robust, and many have been reported over 100,000 miles with out rebuilds.

For a spirited debate on this topic, see Why is 56,600 miles considered high mileage?

Q: What about low mileage cars?

A: The other side of the coin. Low mileage is desireable to some, to a point. Very low mileage cars should look almost new, with no wear on the interior, no evidence of being taken apart, and little to no paint problems. Beware, however, the no-mile and no-maintenance "Garage Queen". There are those who believe that because their car hasn't reached the mileages listed in the maintenance schedule, the maintenance isn't due. As mentioned earlier, rubber and such deteriorates even when not in use -- rubber such as timing belts. It is highly likely that the buyer of an extremely low mileage car will spend a great deal in the early months of ownership replacing seals, belts and such.

Another point to consider is that the odometer on the 308/328 is very easy to disconnect and the speedometers have been known to fail. Always compare the condition of the car to the listed mileage, and check the records to confirm mileage between services.

Again, see Are High Miles or Low Miles Better on a 328?

Q: These records you speak of, what are they?

A: Most owners maintain precise records of repairs, services and expenditures. These records can be useful in determining what has been done to the car, and what is due to be repaired. Some cars have records back to the original delivery, and others have gaps. In general, what you are looking for is proof of the most recent major service and records during the current owner's tenure. A complete record set offers ease of mind and may make a car easier to sell, but a missing oil change record from 1992 usually won't be a deal killer.


Section 3: Buyer's Guides

Q: Any buyer guides out there?

A: This post probably sums it up best

Originally Posted by maquino

This is sort of a long shot, but the February 1999 issue of Forza magazine contained a fairly extensive article, "328 Buyer's Guide", surveying the cars and giving pointers to look for and to avoid.

The magazine's website doesn't go back that far with back-issues, but you might write or call its office and see about a photocopy of that article.

Another helpful resource is the book Original Ferrari V8 by Keith Bluemel. Subtitled "Restorer's Guide to all models 1974-94: 308 GT4, 308/328 GTB/GTS series, Mondial, 348 series, 288 GTO and F40". This is not so much a buyer's guide as a detailed look at each model, which may help you to verify whether it is in original condition or not. Not sure if this book is still in print, but you could try Amazon or Motorbooks or even a Google for it.

From what I have seen in a month or two on FerrariChat, this forum is also full of savvy, friendly, and helpful people. Check out in particular the model-specific forum area "Classic" that includes the 328, and if you find an interesting car, tell the forum about it and get some feedback & suggestions.

You might consider subscribing to Ferrari Market Letter, which has an interactive website. It's a bit expensive, but you can see many 328s advertised there, which give you the opportunity for some comparison shopping.

Good luck and good hunting!

TO BE CONTINUED

[Dave]

That's great Tillman,
But I don't see any info posted about how much cocaine one can smuggle in the gas tanks of a 328, nor do I see info on what's it got on the dash.

[marco246]

Well done, Tillman!

[285ferrari]

Awesome post Tillman--Thanks

[Maceman]

Nicely done, Tillman!

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

Originally Posted by Tillman

...
Congratulations! You've decided you want a Ferrari, and have decided that the 328 is your style.

Now you have questions, right? Believe it or not, there's a ton of previously-posted information here on Ferrarichat that might help you. All you have to do is use the search function. See the "search" in the blue bar on the upper left? Click there, and type in the following:...

There's no blue bar on my screen though there is a red bar.

[Vlad328]

Very helpful and informative. How about a post with sound clips of the various aftermarket exhausts (ANSA, Tubi, Stebro, Calisto, etc.) compared to stock exhaust note on the 328's?

[jimpo1]

Damn Tillman, you bored at work today?

[Tillman]

Did it during lunch...

[judge4re]

Originally Posted by Tillman

Did it during lunch...

I need to start believing the productivity improvements when the WSJ reports them...

Good stuff.

[STC]

Hi !

As a 328 GTS rookie I realyl found your primer very helpful. I wondered if there is already an updated version (>0.1).

Cheers,


STC

[Tomf-1]

great thread, tillman.

i love the "might as well mode" terminology. the "might as well mode" at times can often cost as much as the original estimate if not more.

my newly acquired 88.5 328gts just had a complete major service done last wk and on its way home. the original white paper est. was $3k + might-as well mode expense $4 = total $7k.

[Tillman]

Originally Posted by STC

Hi !

As a 328 GTS rookie I realyl found your primer very helpful. I wondered if there is already an updated version (>0.1).

Cheers,


STC

Thanks for the feedback.

I have not yet updated this. Are there particular questions that you would like added?

[Easyrider7467]

Thats Great Tillman.
I have also begun compiling info myself a month or so ago to assist me in my purchase. Thanks for taking the time (lunch) to compile such info. I found it helpfull and would be more than happy to send you what I have thus far to consider it for your Guide. Thanks again!!

[TCJ1965]

Planning to get a 328GTS next spring and found this quite helpful. Can not wait for Part#2

Ciao!
TCJ1965

[Dino 208gt4]

it's what you call "waking up an old tread"

[Tillman]

Originally Posted by TCJ1965

Planning to get a 328GTS next spring and found this quite helpful. Can not wait for Part#2

Ciao!
TCJ1965

What would people like to see in part 2? I'm open for suggestions

[Glen_Lloyd]

If you are going to piss off the purists, you may as well show them how to install aluminum pedals, how to paint the roof, powder coat the valve covers and install 18" wheels, maybe even how to remove the roof spoiler. LOL

[snj5]

This is pretty neat.

Perhaps other things would be a section on the general development history of the car beginning as far back as the 246 and some general references to some of the earlier racing Ferrari eight cylinder engines to put the Franco Rocci engine in perspective. A brief racing history coupld be a couple of paragraphs.

There's always the 'what can I do to make it faster' folks as well as 'what tires and/or wheels' FAQ

I do know that the last line of one section to prepare future 328 owners should be:

"Hey mister, it's not a Porche, it's a Ferrari..."

[snj5]

Originally Posted by snj5

Perhaps other things would be a section on the general development history of the car beginning as far back as the 246 and some general references to some of the earlier racing Ferrari eight cylinder engines to put the Franco Rocci engine in perspective. ..."

'scusi... Franco ROCCHI.

rt