Hi. I have had my TR for almost 3 years now, and used it as my daily driver. I have put on quite a lot of mileage, done regular servicing, and it has never failed me (apart from burnt fuel pump cotacts in the fusebox), until now that is.... When I was out driving a couple of weeks ago it ran beautifully. I parked it for some 20 minutes, and then when I started it again I noticed that it was not idling very well, and was down on power. I suspected that it was the same pins in the fusebox that had turned bad again, and therefore drove the few kilometers back home to my own driveway. At the time it was running only on 6 cylinders most of the time, but it seemed that the other cylinderbank tried to kick in a few times though. I have tried to locate the error, but it is still a mystery to me... I have done a lot of failseeking and tried to remedy the error, but status is that the car now starts on the first try, runs on all 12 cylinders (it seems) for 2seconds, and then dies... Subsequent attempts to start results in just a few cylinders firing, and then qouickly dies off... After some waiting time it will start without hesitation, but again dies off after 2 seconds... I have tried the following, but without success: - Changed the two fuel-pump pins in the lower left connector in the fusebox with new ones. - Checked all the other pins in the fusebox, apparently they are ok. - Checked (and measured) all the relevant fuses in the fusebox. - Swapped the coils, and checked for spark on both sides. I have spark on both sides, but have not been able to verify that the coils give sparks every time they are supposed to. (How can I verify this?) Also - obviosly - the spark stops when the engine stops... - Checked that both fuel pumps are running when battery is connected by jumping the two fuel relays. - Checked and sprayed a lot of connectors with WD40 to clean them and facilitate connection. (All connectors in fusebox, connectors from the clutch-housing and to the back side of the metal plate under the water expansion tank, connectors from sensors in front (top) of engine, the 5 large connectors behind the passenger-side footwell, connectors entering the relay box on top of rear wheelarch, as well as the large flat connectors above the wheelarches on both sides of the engine-compartment). - Have ordered a few new ...101 and ...113 relays to swap with existig just to check. Will receive those the day after tomorrow. I am a little bit out of ideas at the moment so if there are somebody out there who has experienced the same problems, or can point me in the right direction, I would really appreciate it! I also have a few specific questions: 1: Is there a general way to test relays for correct operation when they are not mounted in a car). 2: Where is the tachometric relay situated? 3: Inside the triangular box above the right wheelarch there are two relays, ans well as a larger component with a fuse. I will try to replace the two relays, but what is the other component, and is it kown to have failed, and if so causing what? 4: I have not yet checked the fuel filters, accumulators etc, as I would find it strange that two similar components would fail at the same time. Is that sound reasoning? 5: Where would it be possible to find a works manual, as well as a complete diagram of the cars electrical system? 6: Can it be a possibility that the fusebox is burnt 'inside' as the above mentioned fuel-pump connectors have overheated before? If so, is it possible to open the fusebox and have a look inside it without damaging it? LVG
It's always possible that the fuse-relay PWB has an internal problem, but there are some other tests to check the tachometric relay system (your "running for 2 seconds and then dying" report is a sign that the tachometric system could be at fault). The tachometric relay is mounted behind the fuse-relay panel, but jump both fuel pump relays again and try starting the engine -- if it runs OK, that is a stronger sign that all is not well in the tachometric relay system. Alternatively, whenever the starter motor is cranking or the engine is running, the tachometric relay should put +12V on the violet wire in the "x" white connector as shown in this jpeg (i.e., if you jump the two fuel pump relays and the engine runs, but the violet wire doesn't go +12V when the engine is running then you'll need to make some measurements at the tachometric relay itself). PS Not that it matters, but is it a '87 (the thread title) or '88 (your profile) and what version TR? Image Unavailable, Please Login
I tried to start the engine when I jumped the fuel pumps manually, but with the same result (Starts but dies off after 2 seconds)... I initially thought it was a 88 model, as it was registered new here in Norway in may 88, but as I discovered later, the car was built in december 87 (Prod nr 74935). I beleive it is a Eurospec model, unless there is a difference between the cars built for the Emirates and Europe. My car was built and meant for delivery to a customer in Saudi Arabia, but it was instead sent to Norway. Here it was packed away for a long time in the hands of an investor anr rarely driven. I had to have the car fully checked and made ready to be driven again after I bought it as I was afraid the standing still had done a lot of damage to it. After that I have used it almost daily, putting on some 12.000 km every year.
Glad to hear you regularly use your TR -- I do the same. Thanks for the clarification about the "year" (there does seem to be more uncertainty for "year" outside of the US market), but can you check for the engine family number on top of cyl #6? Should be something like F113B, F113A, F113A040, etc.. Please let me know -- I'm guessing that it's F113B (KE-Jetronic without Lambda) based on your description of three relays in the triangular black box. That third component should be a 10A fused "protection" relay -- this would be the next thing to check. Post #30 in this thread: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65173 describes how to troubleshoot this "protection" relay C, but if the fuse is blown this could be an alternator problem (so don't do the 30-to-87 jumping test if the fuse is blown unless you have a 10A fuse in the jumper). However, please confirm the engine family number to be sure. No sense even looking at the tachometric system yet if it won't run with the fuel pumps running manually (although it's really best to measure the actual fuel supply pressure at the fuel distributor inlet to say all is truly OK or not with the fuel supply systems -- but having both banks get a fuel problem simultaneously seems very unlikely IMO as you said in #4). The only function of the tachometric stuff is to give the signal to close the fuel pump relays if it thinks the engine is cranking or running -- so jumping the fuel pump relays takes all of that out of the picture.
LVG -- I made a misstatement in my previous post so please let me clarify. What I meant was in terms of the tachometric relay running the fuel pumps, jumping the fuel pump relays gets the tachometric stuff, as related to any possible fuse-relay PWB problems completely out of the picture, but the +12V signal from the tachometric relay is also used to close that protection relay C (as I mentioned in the other threads post #30). You can use a voltmeter to look for the +12V (during your 2 seconds of running) at either terminal 15 of the protection relay C or on the violet wire in the "x" connector (no +12V would indicate a not-properly-closing tachometric relay when running), but I think doing a combination of "jumping" can also be used for deduction -- i.e., (If the 10A fuse on the protection relay is not blown) With everything plugged in as normal, remove the protection relay C with the 10A fuse and add a jumper wire from terminal 30 to terminal 87 of the relay C socket: If the engine starts and runs, you can conclude that relay C or its input signals are bad (and the tachometric relay is OK because your fuel pumps are running); If the engine still doesnt run, jump the two fuel pump relays again (in addition to having relay C jumpered). If the engine then starts and runs, either the tachometric relay is bad or some of its input signals are missing/bad. Anyway, just some ideas of what you might check and/or investigate. If you need to get out to the tachometric relay and check it and its input signals give a shout, and Ill post the SPC illustration and a list of what signals should be on what terminals. PS If your TR engine is in the F113B family (KE-Jetronic without Lambda), the corresponding TR wiring diagram book is 459/86: Image Unavailable, Please Login
Man, I'm always impressed with your knowledge of the cars discussed, especially the electrical systems. Do you work on them for a living? It's people like you and FatBillyBob that make this site one of the great resources for the enthusiast. BT
That's very kind of you to say BT. I'm not a professional auto repair-person, but my training and profession is very similar to someone who might be working on an automotive engineering design team. I'm just an Owner/User/DIYer who's been fortunate enough to log ~90K miles over the last 18 years in my modest F -- even with the inevitable pain, I can highly recommend it I actually didn't want to get to know my TR so well, but, in the course of chasing down a subtle (and troublesome) injection system gremlin, did (or had to). And although there are some differences, everything from Mondial8 thru TR are cousins injection-wise so many of the same or similar issues come up for those models.
Thank you for a lot of clues where to look next! I will check this out on friday morning, as I had to go to Oslo for work a few days. Since the TR is now stuck in the garage at my summer place I am not 100% sure to remember what the number and readings on the engine block are. From my memory I am therefore only 95% sure that it reads 113B, as well as the (serial?-)number 679 (which I am sure of). Anyway the engine does not have the warm-up regulators beneath the intake manifolds, if that differs from the A and B-family. I strongly believe it is equipped with a KE-Jetronic system, and the car is not equipped with catalytic converters (and never has been). Regarding the C-relay, I did check that the fuse was ok, and will try to jump the relay first thing when I get there, as well as do the corresponding measurements you suggested. Another thing that might be worth mentioning was that when I was looking at the two large wires from the coils (especially the LH wire) I noticed that it seemed slightly burnt in the middle. I guess it is carbon-wires due to their EMC resistance, and wonder if it is possible to experience carbon-migration, the same way one can experience metal-migration in solid wires? Do these wires wear out, and can they cause the sparks not to spark as often as they should (as I have verified that I have spark - at least occationally). I have also placed an enquiry for a works manual, a parts manual as well as the 'circuiti eletrici' manual. Hopefully they are to be found, and that I can get hold of them very soon. If they are in stock I will put my confidence in DHL to get them to me before friday. LVG
Hi again!! Have done a lot of measurements etc during the weekend. And here are the main findings: I have no signal (or to be correct 0.1V only) on the red wire to the water-temp switch on the left side of the water hose when the engine is running (or starter is cranking). I took out the C relay (The Stribel one) and found the following: - Terminal 30 goes 12V when engine is running - Terminal 31 is 0V when e.i.r. I then made a jumper between terminal 30 and terminal 87 in the C relay-socket and tried to start the engine. Same result: runs 2 seconds and dies off. Both when fuel pumps are rum maually as well as when they run 'off the ignition'. I then measured terminal 15 (with the jumper and the engine running, and it measured 12V (actually fluctuating between 11.5V and 14.5V) Then I measured both the red wire to the water temp switch as well as terminal 15 in the C-relay socket at the same time (and with the jumper replacing the relay), and found exactly the same results (no Voltage on the red wire to WTS, and approximately 12V on C15) After that I put the relay back in, started the engine and measured the red wire behind terminal 87 on the relay; it measured 0.1V only when engine is running. So what does this really mean, since the engine does not run even with the C relay jumped? (Well I actually made it run two times for about 20 sec's before turning the ignition off, but it barely splutterred during that time.) Another question is: Where does the red wire to the WTS come from? If it is the C relay, should it not go 12V when I jumped the relay? The other finding is probably also significant: As I tore out the fusebox, and looked inside it, I found that it is seriously burnt and warped behind the fuel pump contacts, behind the cooling fan contacts, as well as behind the left vertical connector (I have not been able to identify what all the wires entering that one is...). Obviously I have ordered a new fusebox, and am awaiting its delivery, but I have a feeling that this is not the main reason why I do not get 12V on the red wire at the WTS, as I suspect the fusebox has been like that since I first experienced burnt fuel pump contacts a year ago.... When I took out the fusebox, I also found that the leftmost connector behind it had fallen out of the socket of a component with the following markings: ITA Lamec 12V 315 Segnalatore Acustico This is a black piece which looks like a loudspeaker/buzzer (which also fits well with the translation of the italian printed text....) Putting the 8 pins connector back made no difference to the starting problem though... (or any difference to the car at all as I could see... So what is the function of this component?) A small correction to your drawing Steve; the violet wire from the Tach.relay is going to pin number 7 (counted from the left side of the upper left connector) in my fusebox, not pin number 6 as shown on your drawing. In addition to the above, I have measured the resistance in a lot of other components and they are in the correct range. I also changed the two other A and B relay in the relaybox above RH wheelarch with new ones, but that did not help either... Finally I also double checked the engine family, and it is marked F113B069 as well as 00679 below as I wrote last week. Any suggestions? Do the above measurements imply that I must order a new Stribel relay, or are the problems further upstream (Tach.relay for instance)? I also pulled a few plugs, but they seemed ok, although a bit 'drowned', which I guess is to be expected after my experimentations... Further I checked all (visible) hoses, as well as the rest of the connectors I was able to locate on the car.... There are also no visible fuel leaks, although I have not made a pressure test yet.
I know the hard way that it can be frustrating , but the red wire should be directly connected to terminal 87 of the C relay socket. If you jump the C relay (30-to-87), and have verified that both the female terminals 30 and 87 are, and remain, at +12V during starter cranking, but the red wire at the water temp switch is not +12V, you must have a problem in the wire harness or connector(s). Did you actually verify that terminals 30 and 87 were at +12V during cranking/running? It is not adequate to measure them under no current/load. I don't have my TR schematics with me, but it becomes a case of unplugging various things and making DC resistance measurements like: terminal 87 of the relay C socket -to- pin 1 at the injection ECU connectors terminal 87 of the relay C socket -to- the red wire at the water temp switch pin 1 at injection ECU connectors -to- the red wire at the water temp switch In theory, all of these nodes are on the same network so the resistances should be low (like a few ohms maximum). The tricky bit is ensuring that you've got the right/enough things unplugged so that you're only measuring the part of the harness of interest. I know this connection (from terminal 87 of relay C) also passes out thru one of the round connectors so that's another thing to check. It may be as simple as just needing to unplug the injection ECUs, the red wire, and the C relay to make these resistance measurements, but I'll check that and post later. PS I'll recheck that sketch for the position of the violet wire in the "x" connector, but one difference might be in the frame of reference. For example, that sketch is drawn as a person looks at the fuse-relay panel when standing at the front of the car; however, in the TR wiring diagram books, the fuse-relay panel is shown as though the person is sitting inside the car looking out thru the fuse-relay panel.
LVG -- I checked the F113B schematics and if you want to make those resistance measurements of the harness also unplug the throttle microswitch (in addition to the other 4 previously mentioned components). If you've truly verified at relay C when the engine is running that terminal 30 is at +12V, and terminal 15 is at +12V, terminal 31 is ground, and the fuse is OK, but terminal 87 is not +12V, then I'd have to agree that relay C is kaputt. But, if that was your only problem, jumping relay C should've got around that so you must have some other problem somewhere. Sorry if I'm repeating myself here, but when you put relay C back in and measured ~0V at terminal 87 with the engine running did you confirm terminal 30 was at +12V? The +12V power that comes into terminal 30 comes from a GR (yellow/red) wire that is hooked to the same large post on the end of the starter solenoid as the +12V battery cable -- it wouldn't hurt to check/clean that connection at the large post as well as where the GR wire passes thru the large round connector on its way to terminal 30 of relay C. I'll await your next scream PS I did mess up that sketch regarding the violet wire location in the "x" connector -- thanks for the pointing out the error.
Thanks for the kind words Al -- does seem like deja vu for about the fourth or fifth time on this "+12V power, red wire, relay C" TR stuff. This is the bane of KE-Jet TRs -- 1000s of electrical things have to be "right" for it to work properly, but just one "wrong" electrical thing can be fatal
Hi again... Yes I have measured that the red WTS wire is 0V and that pin 87 is 12V at the same time (using two separate Fluke-meters) and during both cranking and running. The measurements are also stable and consistent. I even made this same measurement three times in a row, and making sure to move the probe-needle on the red wire every time, just to make sure it had penetrated the insulation and hit the conductor inside. So I will definitively have to measure the resistance in the wirings and connectors as you suggest... I have a question regarding that: The injection ECU connectors are one (both?) of the large flat ones above the RH wheelarch are they not? And from where do I start to count the pins? (As you understand I have not been able to grab hold of the 'Circuiti elettrici' book yet, or actually worse: my supplier was not even able to locate it. So I am still looking for that one....) But the works-manual as well as the parts-manual are ordered and on their way. Regarding your advice where you wrote: "...the same large post on the end of the starter solenoid as the +12V battery cable -- it wouldn't hurt to..." Where exactly do I locate that one? And also where do I find the throttle microswitch? I am now back at work in Oslo, and will have to wait till Friday afternoon again to continue the measurements, unfortunately... But in the meantime I will spend some hours trying to read and learn about the workings of Bosch KE-Jetronic systems. It seems like the knowledge can come in handy.... Regards LVG
As you said, a bad sign for the wiring harness or the large round connector (but at least you have a known fault to fix). Yes, they are the two units on top the the RH rear wheel arch. In Section 3, sub-section "fuel injection system" of any of the later standard TR OMs there is a good illustration of the FI components and their locations (for example, Fig 44 on page 64 of 496/88). The jpeg attached is the similar figure 48 from the US TR OM (and they screwed it up a little because this is actually the non-US KE-Jetronic without Lambda system -- US KE with Lambda systems don't have item 16) -- the injection ECUs are labeled item 19. To unplug them, you'll need to first unplug the large round connector (which the outer ring unscrews as the central portion is withdrawn straight) -- but plug the large round connector back in to make the resistance tests. To unplug the injection ECUs, using a flatblade screwdriver flex the metal tab at one end to release that end of the connector. The connector then pivots about the other end in the horizontal plane until it can be withdrawn (they sort of get in each other's way so there's an order to it that I can't recall, but it's obvious). The other attached jpeg shows the US injection ecu pin numbers, yours wont have as many positions used in it, but it should be clear enough to match up. If FerrariUK can't get it for you, I've noticed that www.ferraribooks.com shows 459/86 (although I don't know if that means they really have one in inventory): http://www.ferraribooks.com/inc/pdetail?v=1&pid=474 At the back end of the starter motor area (although the connection is actually to the starter solenoid) -- there's only one really big red "battery cable". The throttle microswitch is located at the outboard end of the 1-6 bank throttle shaft (sort of underneath the 1-6 cold start injector) -- labeled item 8 in either that non-US Fig 44 or the US Fig 48. It has a three-pin connector coming off the bottom surface. Good Hunting! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Hi! I have been busy searcing for the error(s) last weekend, and out of the country the beginning of this week, but finally here are the results of the measurements I made a few days ago: I measured the voltages on the ECU's pin 1, the WTS as well as on terminal 30 on the C relay, and I stand corrected regarding the 12 Volts on the 30 pin. It turns out that it actually is 0.3 volts most of the time, but occationally it flicks to 12V for the odd 'spike'. And as I used the 'Hold-function' on the Fluke measuring it last time, it 'held' onto 12V in the display..... So no constant 12V into pin 30... (But still 12V on pin 15, and Ground on pin 31.) - And obviously no 12V on the nr 1 pins in the ECU's, the middle pin on the throttle switch and the Water Temp Switch either.... As far as the WTS I also found a 115 Ohm resistance measured between the wire just in front of the connector and the connector, which is far too much. I changed it, and now it is 0.4 Ohms, so one small error fixed.... After that all the resistance measurements in connected wires of that part of the wiring all were fine. From there I went to the Tachometric relay and tried to replace it with a new one, but that did not help (I am starting to get quite a few spare parts by now....) So now I am stuck in finding out where in the upstream flow the power is strangulated.... And I would really appreciate it if I could get a detailed description on where the wires into pin 30 comes from all the way to the tachometric relay, as well as a description on the correct signels into/from that relay... (and even further if possible) By the way I have checked for connection between all the pins and the wires in the two round connectors to the relaybox on top of the right rear wheelarch. The were all ok... The same is true for the connector/pins for the tachometric relay... I have unfortunately not yet received the new fusebox, which could well be the reason for my starting problems.... Apparently Italy is closed for holiday, and that part is not easy to get a hold on. My supplier has located one new, but I first have to check the parts number on my old one tomorrow to find out if it is exactly the correct one.... Another thought: if there should be 12V constantly on pin 30, can I try to briefly 'push' that voltage onto the pin from another source, and try to start? And if so, from where can I 'take' it (pin 15 for example?). I feel I am getting closer, but it sure takes time as I only have the weekends to work on the problem.....
Yes, you can apply +12V directly from another source to terminal 30 at relay C and see what happens, but I wouldn't use terminal 15 as the source (the tachometric relay will not have enough current capacity to run the whole injection system in addition to its usual duties) -- just use the big +12V battery cable at the end of the starter solenoid as the +12V source. But this is where you should be looking next anyway -- as I said before, there should be a direct connection (via the yellow/red wire) from this +12V battery cable at the starter solenoid over to terminal 30 at relay C. You wouldn't have the "extra" relay cobbled in at the starter solenoid for the "no-hot-start" issue would you?
Hi again! I tried to check that wire last weekend, but did not locate the right wire, I guess, as all wires to from the starter solenoid goes directly into plastic hoses. Do you know exactly where it enters the solenoid (to point me in the right direction)? Further: I am not sure what you mean when you write 'You wouldn't have the "extra" relay cobbled in at the starter solenoid for the "no-hot-start" issue would you?' Does that refer to another thread in this forum? And finally: the battery cable at the solenoid does it come right off the battery, or does it enter through the fusebox or some other connectors first? LVG
The yellow/red wire hooks up to the same big (6~8mm) threaded post that holds the +12V battery cable -- i.e., the yellow/red wire has a big (6~8mm) loop terminal on the end. It refers to many, many prior threads related to TRs that have a hot start problem where an additional relay is added to put a "stronger" +12V signal on the start command line (terminal 50 -- the white wire) at the starter solenoid. This relay gets added into the same wiring area where you are having trouble. In fact, another TR Owner had this exact same problem where he did have the extra relay and he lost +12V power at terminal 30 relay C. He didn't dig into his wiring to fix it directly (he had buried it too well) -- so he just added another wire as a +12V source for terminal 30 relay C. IIRC, it was Tom Bakowsky who commented how many times he's had to "undo" this relay improvement (when done poorly) to fix a TR problem. My personal preference is to just get a better solenoid (my AceElectric starter solenoid hasn't had a single hot mis-start in the ~3+ years since installation). My recollection is that the +12V battery cable at the starter solenoid comes directly from the battery and does not involve the fusebox at all (but I'll check that in a few hours and correct myself if necessary).
LVG -- My memory was correct. +12V power to the starter solenoid and +12V power to the fusepanel are completely independent from each other (i.e., they both get +12V power via different wires directly from the "+" battery post terminal). But since your starter solenoid and starter motor work well that confirms that there's a good +12V present on that big red battery cable at the starter solenoid -- so you need to find out why there is not a good connection between the red battery cable and the yellow/red wire or if the yellow-red wire path is broken somewhere on its way to relay C.
Hello again. Problem fixed on friday! Turned out it was the wire from the C-relay entering the starter solenoid that was the culprit. It was broken just where it entered the plastic hose. Thank you for your help Steve, without it I would still be searching! Oh, and by the way, my booksupplier called me today and told me thet the works manual, and the parts manual had arrived this morning... Hopefully they will not be needed in the near futire. Anyway, the first thing I will do is send the car to Kent High Performance cars and have them service and go thoroughly through it in case there are other minor errors just waiting to happen... Like the burnt fusepanel, and all the high current wiring entering into it.
Happy to help out, and glad you found the fault. Now, hopefully, you can get back to enjoying your TR -- IME, even for all its faults, when it all works right, a TR is not too shabby
Hi Ferraristi Found this post by Steve Magnussen while researching my non-starting problem and i think i have this "cobbled in relay" next to the starter solenoid. Steve/fellow experts what implications may this have? And could it be responsible for/connected to my non-starting? Thankyou for any suggestions Tr boy
