NEED MORE POWER!! What can I do.

Well, let's see.

More power:

1) boost! Turbo + EFI(or just low boost turbo+CIS if you're brave, that's the old school way). Way more than 5K If done by a Ferrari tuner. Find a local import tuner shop and they'll probably cut you a break just to have a Ferrari in their portfolio.

2) boost! Supercharger + EFI. Talk to Mike, he builds 3 litre V8s that make big horses. Much more than 5K

3) Compression + hotter cams. Hard to make work right thanks to the CIS system, but some people have had luck with it. More power, but it's higher in the RPM band, may not be best for street applications. Cost depends on where your sourcing the parts and who is doing your work. I don't know who makes hot cams for the QV motor, unfortunately.

4) Change the CIS for carbs. Seriously. Talk to Russ, he did this with a 3.2 Mondial. The cost might be in your price range, but it requires a few unobtanium parts.

5) Some people swear by the bored out throttle body/CF intake tube by Kermit. I have never seen any dyno results, so thus far I have no opinion of the products.

6) Would you believe a 2 cam V12 fits in place of the V8? Ok, way out of the price range, but I've seen pics of several different "365 GTS" cars, and at least 1 person on here has/had a V12 308

Bottom line is that 5K really doesn't buy a whole lot in the Ferrari mod world. Not enough economy of scale. Still, it wouldn't hurt to call Norwood Performance and see what they can do for you.

 

To add to what has already been said. A good port and polish job on the heads will give you the best bang for your buck. You can also put stiffer valve springs in it. This will enable you to make more ponies by spinning it faster. I don't know of anyone that makes them for Ferrari's but, underpullies can add a couple of ponies. Get the flywheel lightend, it will let the engine rev up quicker. You can also go to a direct fire system. Check out Nick's website, he's the oldest sponsor of the site.

 

Ernie hit it right with the porting comment. the stock 4 valve heads do not flow well in stock condition, but really wake up with a porting job done right. Typically the 4 valve flow pretty well flat lines right around .330"lift, I have ported them,and the results are very impressive, especially if the valve timing is dialed in to favor top end. I have had the pleasure of e-mailing Russ for some time now, and all said and done,his Mondy is VERY impressive in output. But.. the carburtion set up is not cheap by any means. The Bosch CIV, while not a stunning performer, compared to a brace of Webers, is used by virtually every Euro MFG at one time or another. And a few Japanese cars as well. They routinely race them in classes that require stock induction, and much can be done to increase HP. a lightened flywheel will definately help,as will oversize waterpump and alternator pulleys (Durable 1 makes them Ernie.)
If , down the road you want still more yet, add cams. Then you can take advantage of the flow that the heads have available. either way the result is a smooth performer that pulls well from low RPM on up.
HTH
Kermit

 

Hi
Just saw this thread. The basic thing to remember is hp is all about FLOW. Can't add too much to the great advice so far, but here's some ideas. Something else you may want to sharpen up is the response - it'll feel like even more hp. To get the best bang for the buck:
1. Exhaust Would do this first as you are. I've had a tubi and loved it, and they do make a difference in sound and ease to rev, but there are less expensive options that are just as good or better. While I despise Stebro for their customer service (see other threads), they are said to make a good product for about 1/2 of Tubi. If you can get by without your earlier generation cats, would do that first - if not, upgrading to later technology Cats will make a difference (e.g. Hyper-cat). I, like a few others on the board, ended up having an exhaust system designed and made (see old threads). The short strory is that any good race shop with a good fabricator can weld up even a s/s dual free flow exhaust using Magnaflow or Dynomax parts that will perform as well or better in sound and flow than the Tubi for about $500 - $600. General rule, it's tight back there, but the larger the muffler volume, the quieter. If you like it a bit loud, can put open un resonated dual chrome or s/s tips. I like mine a bit quieter and smoother so I used resonated tips (I used Ansa, but Hooker makes a nice set). Some people have used Flowmaster (see old threads) but those are a bit too aggressive sounding even for me, although their owners rave about them. Key thing is, you can get exactly waht you want as far as sound. Whatever you spend - $3000 for a Tubi or $600 for a quality built S/S custom system - you'll be awed by the remarkable difference it makes.
You'll also lose about 50# in weight over the stock system which is quite heavy.
2. Induction: The main impediment to induction flow is the Bosch K-jet system with it's long induction track and big ol' dukin' air mass sensor plate hanging out in the air flow.The more flow the better is the rule.
The obvious no-holds barred approach is a turbo to blow past the flow resistance which will put you in the 350+ range with the stock exhaust. Would call James Patterson at Norwoods (FChat sponsor: www.norwoodperformance.com) to see what the price ranges are now. They are not a bargain basement place, but they are the very best when it comes to turbos.
If you are shooting for a more conservative increase, a good complement would be a larger bolt - on throttle body like Kermit offers (www.durable1.com) and a K&N filter (many disagree, but I have seen them work on a dyno albeit with carbs). If you can afford it, porting the head would be great with great results. If you do not want to remove the the heads, you might be able to squeeze in an electronic fuel injection system to replace the Bosch but it'd be close for $5K.
As mentioned, I like Webers (I'm an old Alfa guy, but then so was Enzo Ferrari) which open up the flow radically and allow a lot of tuning for the buck. And it's just so classically beautiful, Italian and Ferrari. The key here is finding a set of MANIFOLDS. For the QV, incredibly beautiful sets were made by Frank Capo of Modena Engineering in Australia. I happen to know that Tate Casey at Carobu (www.carobu.com) is talking to them RIGHT NOW about having some more made, so may want to jump on that bandwagon. I've posted the whole conversion and dynos and pictures on the board if you want details. Not accounting for my development which you would not have to pay, this is what it cost me:
Manifolds: $1500
4 x Weber 40 DCNF-12s (NEW!) $1000 - 1200 for 4
Fuel pump $50
Air Cleaner - can use a stock 308 air box but can use many different - cost me $130
Linkage - $50
Probably could do the whole thing for a bit less than $4000. I sold my old FI to help defray the cost (like I sold my old tubi). The best rear wheel hp Dyno numbers I've gotten with the airbox lid off was 241 hp, which is about +/- 290 at the flywheel, or a +/- 30 hp or so improvement over the stock 260. Certainly improved the sound and response. I'm a nut case and am getting some cams done, so will have over 300hp (although I'm shooting for more mid range for a daily driver) when I'm through on a very very simple car that can be maintained with garden tools. I also lost about 20# in weight over the FI.
Anyway, just some more to add to the good advice and options already presented. Lots of VERY smart folks on this board here to help - certainly smarter than me and they have really made my project quite fun.
Have fun!
best
rt

 

Warning, this won't be a popular post.

If you want more performance, sell the Mondial and take the $5k and the money from the sale of the car and buy a Porsche 911 cabriolet.

Don't try and create something the moon dog isn't, its a nice drop top GT. Never was supposed to be a hyper quick car. Unless you want to go down the Mondial Z route (which is over your budget), leave it alone and enjoy it.

 

considering your budget I would opt for a nitrous set up, and spend the balance on a set of HRE wheels and tires.

 

One that isn't listed yet is just do an efi conversion maybe with a bigger throttle body. The numbers I've seen/heard are 20-30 hp. About the same as the weber conversion would get you....then when you want to add boost you're 1/2 way there.

 

Erik
How can you not always like a guy with a brace of Ferrari 2+2s?
I'd agree if it's all about numbers the 911 is the best way to go. Had one myself.
Sometimes, if it's what you like, the fun is in the doing.
best
rt
another 2+2 fan.

 

You actually might be pretty pleased with just the exhaust up grade to start. Would try that first and see if that's enough. The differences in the feel and sound experience are pretty remarkable.
best
rt

 

Why not sell the car and trade up to a Mondial 3.2 or possibly a Mondial-t? Any mods you make to the existing car probably won't be reflected in its resale value. By stepping up to a newer, more powerful model you can get the performance you want (anywhere from 30 - 60 more HP) and protect your investment.

 

Sage advice here....stick with the exhaust and possibly and intake upgrade and leave it at that. Much more is most like not going to give you much "bang for the buck".

Save the dough for the eventual "upgrade" for the next Ferrari. I thought my 308GTS was a "keeper", but things change, and I got a 328GTS, and now have a 355 spider. I lost plenty on each of my previous cars in "upgrades"...wasn't worth it. Though I had fun.

 

10 is a lot different than 5.....I think in the 8-10 range you can go efi and turbo/supercharger and be looking at 350-400 hp.

 

My money is on this pony! Save your bucks and get something with more HP.

 

What's wrong with this one? Why wouldn't you expect someone with "judge" (as in concours, not the legal system) as part of their user name to say "leave it stock".

If you are going to get buget creep and put $10k in the car, go ahead and get a Mondial t coupe. 300 hp is way different than 240 and you might as well trust Ferrari's engineering department rather than guys on an internet chat board to sort out the details...

Its going to be very difficult to sell a modified Mondial cabriolet when the time comes to move on to the next toy. I'm just trying to pass on something from my 7 years of Ferrari ownership experience.

 

Nahhhhh, if you are gonna spend $10 G's have Mark build you a S/C setup. If all you are after is power, and 10 grand is the limit, you will never beat boost.

 

JS
If you do decide to tweak your car beyond the exhaust, something I found interesting is that you can actually reduce the long term maintenence costs if you are careful about what you do which may offset some loss at resale. Unless you are planning to turn the car fast or do your own maintenence, standard running costs for these cars are quite high, and usually require special tools or involved proceedures (i.e dropping the engine on a t for a major service or removing the entire induction system to set the valves every 10,000 miles on a GT4 2+2 ), and can quickly put you in for more than the car is worth just on regular maintenence items.

I agree if you are not planning on keeping the car long term, then a lot of upgrade $$$ may be better spent on a newer model. While they were a bit high up front, the MAIN reason for my upgrades were that I could have a much more reliable car and drastically reduced running costs through DIY maintenence over the long term. Then again, I find the Mondial 3.2's capabilities (best mid engine 2+2 GT ever made) perfectly fit my long term requirements. And, these cars are a blast to work on and you really gain an appreciation for them, at least for me.

While usually true, ask anyone that's had a good look at Ferrari electrical systems for example, and they'll verify Ferraris' engineers did not come to work some days the electrical system was designed (especially the fusebox and connectors) or were drinking heavily; and some days Luigi at factory came to work pretty looped himself if you look at some of the construction details. Also remember that even Ferrari engineers were designing to compromises for different markets. There is room for improvement in some areas if you actually use the car and but not if you bought the car to compete at shows.

Bottom line, it's just a car...your car...so do what makes you happy and meets your requirements.
best to all
rt

 

Matt: 2 questions for you... did you ever get dyno numbers on your throttle body bore-out?

And what does it cost for a typical QV head porting job?

 

Not just yet Mike, but this will be damn soon I can tell ya. In spite of many different trades, etc, I never got any dyno#'s back , I got a good deal from Bill @ GT Car Parts, and picked up a 2 valve model and a 4 valve one! Now I have a stock one in for both Ferraris that are in the works. An '85 308 that I fired up last night, and a 80 Mondial, both hving 70mm's on them. I'll be able to get the 4 valve #'s quite soon, and the Mondy's next month as I now have a decent blockto build on. (You may have gotten a drift of the battle on the Wiseco Piston thread.) So I have been busy as heck for a while now. I am really looking forward to seeing what prints out, both as a curiosity (having spent years between flow benches, and dyno's one generall can have an idea what the rollers say. But then again some days you get a suprise.)
And secondly, just to hangon the wall after all of this time, LOL .
I am currently putting together that porton of the web site, and doing some parts sourcing as well. So I'll have to delay that answer a bit. One thing we are doing different now is offering a "Street Level" porting job, which gets the same metal reeshaping, but not as highly polished as that is a suprising time consumer. The price on that porting job will be about half as much as the top of the line. On the 4 valve we will offer slender stem high flow valves for the same or less than stock type.
On theMondy I might add, I am pushing a redesign thru on the air filter houseing. They flow like Sh*t! I did a toe to toe with the 2 valve Mondial's air cleaner assembly, versus the 85 Quatro's. In back to back tests, not even shutting the 'bench down the 4 valve flowed 98% and the 2 valve did a poor 71%! So I'm kinda pushed into that one as the motor has had a bit done to it, but wont show well with the stock unit.As I didn't discover the flow limits until after I had the entire subframe out, I can use any pics that show areas that tend to be close, as I'm going to crowd a few spots to get flow,and still use the stock size element. I have BTW seen the same parts number in some 308 2 valve manuals, as it has a distinctive slanted seam.

 

I have an '84 Mondial QV Coupe. I'd love to get one of those custom exhausts several of you have mentioned. Can anyone recommend a good source for one? Any place in the NJ/NY Metro area that might be able to supply one if they can't be ordered long distance? Any info would be much appreciated.

 

Use a lighter oil.

aehaas