What is this? | FerrariChat

What is this?

Discussion in '308/328' started by Sledge4.2, Jul 2, 2009.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,780
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    #1 Sledge4.2, Jul 2, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    taking off my distributor caps, I noticed a vaccum hose dangling near this thing (arrow pointing to it). The small black hose is rotted off the right side, and there is nothing attached to the left side.

    What is this, and what is its function?

    Assuming it has something to do with the evaporative emission control system.

    Is there supposed to be a hose attached to the left side, and if so where does it go. Couldnt find anything in the wsm.

    Thanks in advance
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,181
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #2 Steve Magnusson, Jul 2, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2009
    In the Ferrari documentation, it is called an "electrovalve" (it is a solenoid operated pneumatic valve). That particular one controls the diverter valve of your air injection system. In the stock configuration, the hose that "rotted off" the fitting on the right side would be connected to the intake manifold (i.e., a vacuum source that varies with engine load); there is no hose on the left side fitting (i.e., it is connected/vented to the atmosphere). Try a search on "air injection electrovalve" for other threads.

    The diverter valve "diverts" the air injection air to atmosphere when the engine is at low load (i.e., high manifold vacuum) and high RPM.

    The red wire is always at +12V and the white wire is "controlled" by the special ECU under the passenger footwell (or I might have those colors reversed, but I'm not going to look it up ;)).

    At low RPM (something like less than 4400 RPM IIRC), the white wire is not ground -- so the electrovalve is "off" which, pneumatically, connects the blue hose going to the diverter valve to the bare "atmosphere" port (and the port with the black hose is blocked closed) -- which leaves the diverter valve unactivated, and the air injection air is delivered to the check valves and on to the air injection nozzles.

    At high RPM, the special ECU puts the white wire to ground, this turns the elctrovalve "on" and, pneumatically, connects the black hose to the blue hose going to the diverter valve (and blocks the bare port closed). If the engine is at low load (i.e., there is a high vacuum in the intake manifold), this high vacuum is conveyed to the diverter valve (via the blue hose), which "opens" the diverter valve and the pressurized air coming from the air injection pump is dumped to the atmosphere. If the engine is under heavy load (i.e., low vacuum in the intake manifold), the electrovalve still pneumatically connects the blue hose to the black hose, but since the vacuum level in the black hose is low, the diverter valve does not open and the pressurized air from the air injection pump is delivered to the check valves and on to the air injection nozzles.

    In the diagram that I sent you in the other thread (http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=193587), I used a constant high vacuum source for the black hose -- so in that non-stock configuration, the air injection air always gets "diverted" (to atmoshpere) at high RPM (regardless of engine load).
     
  3. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,780
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    I sent you a PM with a question on the schematic you sent me a while ago. I think you answered my question.
     
  4. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,780
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    #4 Sledge4.2, Jul 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Steve, thank you.

    I am in the process of connecting everything per your diagram.

    What does this hose connect to?

    the hose rotting off in my origional post was connected via a "T" to the #8 carb which is also the carb that is coughing....could that be the reason? In any event we will see if that solves the problem or not as soon as i get everything put back together.

    Very grateful for your help.

    Geno
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  5. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,780
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    also, the pipe coming out of the bottom of the cannister, does it connect to anything?
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,181
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #6 Steve Magnusson, Jul 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    It connects to the tube on the underside of the airbox. After shutoff, the small rotary air pump draws the fuel vapors out of the airbox and pumps them into the charcoal canister.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Yes, having this fitting "open" (to allow air in) could easily cause runability problems for that cylinder. As I indicated in the other post, the fitting on the #8 intake manifold should be connected to a completely "closed" system (the vacuum sphere that operates the flap on the airbox snout via an electrovalve) -- i.e., there should be no net airflow into the fitting on #8.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    No hose -- it is "connected" to the atmosphere

    And here's the hose routing for the electrovalve controlling the airbox airflap (which is the opposite logic from the electrovalve controlling the diverter valve so it seems a little weird hose connection-wise -- i.e., a hose is placed on the metal fitting and one of the plastic fittings is left open to atmosphere). Of course, if you restore this system you need to make sure that:

    1. the actuator + airflap mechanism works well -- i.e., vacuum applied to the actuator = closes the flap, and no vacuum = the flap moves to the fully open position (I had to clean and relube the pivot bearings on mine), and

    2. the electrics running the electrovalve works -- when the key is "on" = the voltage between the two terminals on the electrovalve should be +12V. This actuates the electrovalve which connects the hose going to flap actuator to the open fitting vented to atmosphere -- i.e., no vacuum on actuator = flap open. When the key is "off" (and some vacuum is stored in the sphere from recent engine running) = the voltage between the two terminals on the electrovalve should be 0V. This de-actuates the electrovalve which connects the hose going to flap actuator to the hose connected to the sphere -- i.e., vacuum is present on actuator (at least for a while -- mine would hold vacuum for several days) = flap closed.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  7. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,780
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    Steve, where do I send payment? Seriously without guys like you, guys like me would be lost.
     
  8. Neonzapper

    Neonzapper F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2008
    2,580
    MD/FL/Philippines
    Full Name:
    Mykol
    +1
     
  9. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,780
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    I rerouted all the electrovalve crap that was messed up on the car, and routed it per Steve's schematic.

    I also checked the resistance in my plug wires, and they were all shot, so i installed new 4040R's.

    A huge issue i had in the past was massive snorting and popping on overrun. While entertaining, it was a little much (actually it sounded great, but too much). I thought it was the shot old homegrown muffler i had, so replaced with a used tubi, did everythign i could to chase the airleak, but it persisted.

    now, with the new routing of the emissions tubes per steve's schematic, and the new plug wires, there is no air leak and the car sounds like a toyota campry. very very quiet, i guess this is what they are supposed to sound like.

    i suspect that the botching routing of the emissions tubes steve observed in a earlier post, combined with the rotted off tube to the electrovalve (which was connected to carb #8, and therefore an open circuit), was the source of the air leak? Is that corrrect?

    Issues now

    1) the car idles perfect, dead perfect at 3-4k, but the response getting there is sluggish as hell (compared to before, which was a blip blip blip response, like a sport bike).

    2) going from idle trying to blip the throttle i get (in addition to a sluggish reponse) carb backfires, more than before, and backfire out exhaust.

    i know, check timing. I am a hack and dont think i can do that. could i totally disconnect the electrovalve routing (charcoal cannister, diverter valve, electovalve and all the crap by plugging the #8 carb vacuum line? therefore i could tell if the problem was all the electrovalve routing crap?

    sorry for the sketchy post, i am nearly out of my league here.
     
  10. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,181
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #10 Steve Magnusson, Jul 8, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
    Geno -- let me respond to the text in your PM:

    You must have made a small typo because you use "front bank of carb(s)" with the two different status descriptions for the small tubes (unless I misunderstand). The bottom line is that the small tubes on the intake manifold allow about 0.5 Kg/hr of air into each cylinder at idle if they are "open" (whereas the airflow entering the main choke of the carb at idle is on the order of 3~4 Kg/hr) -- so, if some of these small tubes were blocked, but they are now "open" (by being connected to the charcoal canister system), you would need to make a mixture adjustment (more than being resynced), but with such a bastardized prior situation, it certainly wouldn't hurt to check the airflow synchronization IMO. Also, if the fitting on cyl#8 was "open", that would've been letting a lot of (undesired) air into that cylinder #8. Consequently, you may need to increase the airflow a bit into all of the other cylinders to make up for the (correct) airflow reduction into cyl #8 (and hold the 1000 RPM idle speed). Additionally, if cyl #8 had a lot of extra air entering, it would also have a lot of extra fuel entering (if it was adjusted to actually run at idle) -- so it might need to be leaned out now.

    If the fitting on the #8 cylinder is hooked up correctly, it is already "closed", so blocking this off directly should have no effect.

    If you did block off all of the small tubes, you would have the same situation as described above, but in reverse -- if you block off the small tubes on cylinders where they were previously "open", the airflow entering the cylinder will be decreased by 0.5 Kg/hr at idle so that cylinder will be running richer than it was before. Generally, this direction (going richer) is more forgiving (i.e., a properly adjusted mixture made richer usually still works OK -- unless your cats catch on fire ;) -- whereas, a properly adjusted mixture made leaner has running trouble), but you can make the same compensation by just opening the mixture screw a little on those cylinders where the small tubes have gone from closed to open. The usual "manual" method is to fully close the mixture screw (so the cylinder misses at idle) and then slowly open the mixture screw until the cylinder starts contributing again and then open it another 3/8~1/2 turn. Of course, this assumes that the airflow has already been properly synchronized (and your prior "condition" doesn't give me a lot of confidence yours was/is perfect ;)). Alternatively, as an experiment, you could just try opening the mixture screws another 1/2 turn on those cylinders where the small tubes have gone from closed to open and see if that has any effect on the runability (although the mixture screw on #8 may need to go "in" as described before).

    The key to mucking with the mixture screws is to keep track of where they were so you can "go back", if necessary -- i.e., if you open some 1/2 turn, make note of which ones. Or, if you do the full blown adjustment of "fully closed and then open to run at idle + 1/2 turn", count (and note) the # of turns from the original position to the fully closed position -- that way you can always repeat the original position.

    PS Does your airbox flap now function correctly?
     
  11. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,780
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    Prior to me trying to fix the bastardization, the front bank of carbs had the small tubes plugged. The rear left carb was also plugged, but the rear right carb small tubes were connected to the bastardized system.

    I cant recall now, nor can I tell in my pictures where the rotted off tube connected to on the other end – before or after the check valve (or whatever that thing is down stream of the #8 carb).

    In any case, it seems like a carb adjustment is in order, and I will attempt to do that per your instructions below.

    However, I am currently now on a mandatory family vacation, so I wont be able to spend any time with the mistress until the vacation is over in two weeks.

    On a semi-related note, yesterday I was visiting the indy mechanic that works on my audis and he was adjusting 4 carbs on a cobra, and we got to talking about carbs, he said he could easily adjust mine. I remember reading here somewhere there is no magic with Ferrari carbs – that carbs are carbs, is that true (ie, if I tried to get the carbs in order and fubar’ed it <hopes apostrophe is in the right spot> could I take it to him to sort it out?)
     
  12. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,181
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #12 Steve Magnusson, Jul 8, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
    Sure, generally -- a Weber DCNF is not an uber-exotic carb (and I'd be glad to email you a copy of the Haynes Weber Manual Chapter 13 covering the Weber DCNF that you could share with your friend if he already isn't familiar with them). Birdman wrote a good tutorial you should check out:

    http://www.birdmanferrari.com/service/sync/carb_synch_tutorial.htm

    If your friend has a Syncrometer, you should ask to borrow it.
     
  13. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,780
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    yes, if you could email it that woudl be great, sent you a pm.

    also, yes i have seen the birdman article, and plan on using that as well (thank you and props to birdman).
     
  14. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,780
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    Thanks Steve, i guess I will set down Atlas Shrugged and read up on carbs over the vacation.
     
  15. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,780
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    First attempt at adjusting / working on carbs. Per Steve's advice, I tried adjusting the mixture screws in 1/2 to one turn increments. There was no change in performance. The mixture screws are nearly all the way out...almost falling out. After giving up on keeping track of where the mixture screws were set, I screwed them all the way in, then backed them out two full turns. Car would start and run, but would die when lifting off pedal. The idle screws were not touching the throttle, so i screwed them in 1/2 turn after touching the throttle per the WSM. Car runs, but doesnt nearly idle.

    Guess i need to start from square one...
     
  16. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,780
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    Steve, I am trying to make sure the diverter valve is not the source of my backfiring.

    I base this on the WSM "b) air outlet system during decelerations to avoid backfire in the exhuast sytem"

    given the fact that I have everything connected per your diagram, ie, always diverted to the the atmosphere, could inoperability of the diverter valve contribute to the backfiring, and if so, would the procedures to check the diverter valve in teh WSM still apply based on the way i have it connected?
     
  17. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

    Nov 19, 2008
    2,248
    Full Name:
    David Lind
    I've never had this problem, but the great step-by-step advice with photos that have come out of this question are an example of why FChat is brilliant. I dare say this site can save thousands of dollars per year for even an average mechanic.
     
  18. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,181
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #18 Steve Magnusson, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2009
    The diverter valve procedure in the WSM is to directly apply a vacuum onto the nipple on the diverter valve to make sure that the diaphragm doesn't leak (i.e., it will hold a certain vacuum level) and that the diverter valve opens at that vacuum level (i.e., if you blow into the port connected to the air pump, the air goes out to the atmosphere port rather than to the ports connected to the check valves) -- so it really isn't talking about how it is hooked up to the engine (i.e. this only checks the diverter valve operation itself). If the electrovalve is "bad", or, if the ECU in the passenger footwell isn't turning the electrovalve "on" at high RPM, these would also cause the diverter valve to not open at high RPM -- even if the diverter valve itself is OK.

    My advice (for a test) would be to remove the large rubber air supply line from the air pump outlet and block the free end of this large rubber hose that goes to the diverter valve (i.e., the air pump air would always just be blowing air out the steel outlet tube into the atmosphere):

    If the high RPM deceleration backfire goes away, then you should dig deeper and check:
    1. the diverter valve itself per the WSM
    2. confirm that the electrovalve works -- i.e., when no voltage is applied, port 1 is closed and port 2 is connected to port 3; when +12V is applied between the two terminals, port 1 is connected to port 2 and port 3 is closed:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    and
    3. confirm the voltage between the two wires in the harness connected to the electrovalve is 0V below ~4400 RPM and is +12V above 4400 RPM.

    If the high RPM deceleration backfire is still present, then I'd still be more suspicious of some sort of "leak" in the exhaust system (still including the air injection system hardware) or something else.
     
  19. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,780
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    Not to mention the patience with all the stupid questions as us non-mechanics try and figure it all out!! No one makes you feel like an idiot when you ask rookie questions, I think that is pretty cool.
     
  20. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

    Nov 19, 2008
    2,248
    Full Name:
    David Lind
  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,181
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Yes, but at whose expense? ;)
     
  22. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

    Nov 19, 2008
    2,248
    Full Name:
    David Lind
    The expense of those who we would pay to do something we otherwise wouldn't have the knowledge to do. It's our money, after all ...
     
  23. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,780
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    #23 Sledge4.2, Sep 2, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    EUREKA!!!!!!

    I pulled the hose off the airpump, and stuffed a wine cork in it, took her for a drive. Results: Zero backfire, zero popping on overrun. I cant believe it, i have been chasing that backfire for so long, and now its gone. She spins right up to redline, and zero backfire, zero popping on overrun, just the sweet sound of that Tubi, man i cant tell you how excited I am. I have had this car for over 2 years, and its never run better.

    Thank you Steve, and thanks to everyone who helps guys like me out on this board. I really appreciate it.

    I am planning on writing up a technical write on how to cork the airpump hose, stayed tuned.

    To top it off, I have a drive scheduled with a ferrari group to Tomales Bay in Marin County Northern Cal this weekend, I am excited!!
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  24. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,181
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Glad to hear that you are getting closer to "OK".

    Please let us know what you find is messing up the diverter valve operation -- the "cork" is OK for a few days use, but it's not really a good long-term fix ;)
     
  25. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,780
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    well, i have lots of wine corks laying around....so..

    I am going to follow your procedures this weekend to determine the problem and will report back.

    btw, for those following this, i reported at the beginning of the thread that the popping problem was fixed with the re-routing of the carb emission tubes, but in reality i was only running on one bank (front bank). When i got both banks running, the popping persisted.
     

Share This Page