456MvsBoxer

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by boxerman, Oct 18, 2008.

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  1. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Spent the day today driving a freinds 456M. The gears shift way smoother than a boxer, second is the equivalent to 1st in a boxer, perhaps that is why the 0-60 on the newer cars is better, but once on the roll they really do net seem faster or as fast.

    The 456 steering is direct but way overboosted with no feedback or feel(great for commuter traffic), the brakes seem intialy great but lost the plot vey quickly and ABS interved way to soon, there was also serious body lean on corners. Contrast this with the boxer, brakes which require a stout push but are infintly better modulatable and strong, the steering on a boxer is intialy heavy at slower speeds but far more communicative and holding a line on a boxer is a joy as opposed to and excecise in muscular restraint that the power system on the 456 requires.

    Shifting on the 456 is a joy. The motor on the 456 has torque and is very smooth and blippable but is actualy lacking in response at lower revs. The throttle on a BBI at least is like a rheostat the motor and car reponds to exact inputs intantaneously. The 456 was comfortable on a long drive like a boxer is not, and once the revs and speed were up it was clear that the 456 could pull a lot stronger above 140ish than a boxer would. In all I would say from 60-140 the boxer hits way harder, and the Boxer is a car reactive to the driver in a way that puts it in a different orbit to the 456.

    Handling is outlined a bit above, my boxer has more modern tires and between the steering and grip there simply is no comparrison. the boxer feels to be a racer civilised enough for the street, the 456 is really just a big GT with a wonderful sounding engine, more like my M3 except the M3 is lighter on its feet.

    Basicaly the 456 feels too divorced from the action and too mushy when pushed, this is the case with most modern cars. In the end the 456 like an M car was painless fun, but only 70% as intense as a boxer less reactive and probably slower below 140.
     
  2. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

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    I think you would feel differently over a test drive in a 550 in Sports mode, and even more so with the Fiorano Handling Pack.

    The 456 really is built as a comfortable fast executive car, whereas the 550 is much more in the same vein as a Boxer. Same concept, I mean, but 25 years difference in execution. My 365BB is the rawer experience, but my 550 allows itself to be driven it much, much harder on twisty roads. It is a very satisfying car to drive on a mountain pass, not mushy at all, and very little lean on corners - much less than my Boxer in any case.

    Put it this way: I had both my Boxer and my 550 available for a drive on the Nurburgring circuit last month. I picked the 550 without even thinking about it.


    Onno
     
  3. johnvwatts

    johnvwatts Formula Junior

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    Interesting post onno. I drove a 360 Stradale then took my 512 BB (carb) for a run. Whist the Stradale is quick off the mark it doesn't have alot of torque and you've got to redline it to get anything out of it. The salesman was abit shocked when I told him I didn't think it was that quick. Now I'm not saying a 512 BB is quicker than a Stradale but when you get the Boxer moving it certainly feels it. The Srad also has launch control and I feel alot of the 0-60 and 0-100 times are based on that but it the real world you don't use it as it busts the clutch after time 3. I preferred the Boxer.
     
  4. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    #4 boxerman, Oct 20, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2008
    If you are running stock tires then yes the 550 can and will be driven a lot harder, it is another universe of grip. All of the stock boxer tires are crap especialy given what the car is capable of. I would suggest more modern rims and tires, they completly transform the car in terms of grip predictability and ride, so much so that you wonder how you drove it before. I think when developing the boxer ferrari like lamborghini with the countach developed a car for which tire technology was not yet ready. Lambo eventualy went with the S and p7 tires whereas ferrari went down the michelin metric dead end.

    The 512 and the 365 engines will be different too, the 365 being peakier. In the end though I am sure for hard laps of nurbering the 550 will be a better and more durable choice. On a fun twisty mountain road the boxer would probably be my choice, it will be more fun, more viceral, and with modern tires and good brake pads there really is little you can do on the street that will exceed the boxers ability. Stock though a hard driven boxer will melt its tires and wilt.

    I think the 550 is most certainly faster up top, but a softer experience. And with modern rubber I have had no problems with 360's on a tight track like lrp. What really amazes is just how good a boxer is not just considdering the time it was made, but how good if unrefined they are now, and how much fun it is compared to the modern more divorced experience. In the USA where high speed cruising is an impossibility this makes the boxer the weekend fun choice by far.

    In the end what were huge dissapopintment on the 456 was the lack of bottom end response and hit, the really bad power steering and brakes that lost the plot quickly. I am sure the 550 is better in all these regards, but how much so.
     
  5. ferraripete

    ferraripete F1 World Champ

    not to mention driving a bb at any track...they also have NO brakes by any modern standard.
     
  6. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    #6 boxerman, Oct 20, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2008
    Well they certainly have better brakes than a 456, and my boxer brakes held up at least as well if not better than the brakes on my E46 M3 at Lrp. True not as good as a new porche though, have never tried a 360 at the track.

    The problem with most BB's is that being 25+years old they are not running optimaly. Most cars if "maintained" have basicaly had their belt changes and waterpumps done.

    Boxers respond well to modern ignition systems, new plug wires, properly serviced distributors(many older cars have frozen advance weights). Caliper rebuilds, fresh discs and modern street/track pads with modern rubber. Then there are bushings and brake lines(all presihables), and general suspension rebuilds including the steering rack. All this makes a boxer a surprisingly good car by modern standards with that classic race car for the road feel that the moderns lack.

    The only real change from stock as suggested above would be modern rubber and pads. You would be surprised how well a well driven boxer can go, true, like an older porche it does take experience, but it rewards and teaches.

    But the reality is 25+ years later very few boxers run anywhere near how they did when fresh, and this is excused as the way older cars run, when in reality it is all the little bits that are run down having a significant cumulative effect.

    Of course if one had never driven a proper running boxer it would be hard to tell, and most boxers are not now owned to be more than fastish drivable showpieces.

    It is true these cars are very hard and expensive to put right, and someone needs to have boxer specific mechanical experience to do it. For most the time, experiece and cost it takes to have a great running boxer is irrelevant, they do not know the difference, and the "value" is unaltered compared to another cosmeticaly nice boxer.

    Nick mason took his BBLM to the track and ran it against his F40, the BBLM was significantly quicker than the F40. True the BBLM was a specific track bred car, but its bones are the same as any boxer. My point is if these cars are setup properly and have modern tires they are a lot closer to a modern in performance than you think, and a lot more fun, plus you do all the driving. Not to knock moderns i would love a scud, but do not think that a 355 550 or even a 360 can easily best a proper boxer, because they cannot, at least below 140.
     
  7. red bb512

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    Last month we went on the Germen autobaan with a 512BBI witch is perfectly tuned with modern ignotion and upgraded brakes. My stock BB512 is fast but normal maintaind.This BBI however is so much faster that
    even a new 430 scuderia could not keep up with it on a strait line dash and had to move over to let the Boxer pas. Nobody could belive that the engine was a stock BBI.
     
  8. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

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    Very enjoyable posts, Boxerman.

    I think the very valid point you're making is how good is the particular example of the car that you're driving - when you drive a Boxer, how close is it to what it could be fresh off the factory floor? I can certainly tell you that my BB's brakes don't impress me. Your posts make me want to investigate that further.

    But conversely, not every 456 drives the same or is well set up either.

    My personal experience is limited to 3 Boxers (a 365BB, 512BB and 512BBi, all driven on the same day). Only the 365 I've driven in anger, because I bought it a week later, but all these Boxers were in concours condition (which, granted, doesn't necessarily mean that they drive as well as they could) and in my experience none of them could match my 550 in any respect except for thrills. What I mean is that they were not in the same league as my 550 but I loved driving all of them, and I certainly found them impressive.

    Most important to me, however, is that it doesn't matter to me where they come on the absolute scale. I don't like to compare my 550 and 365 - if I wanted to buy the better car I would own only one, not both. The simple fact is that both were the best you could buy in the Sports GT market at the time of their launch, and they are gobsmackingly awesome, each in their own unique and very different way.


    Onno
     
  9. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Are you reading this Mr Feinberg? I believe its stock, BBis are the fastest of the boxers even if they sound like a choirboy......
     
  10. Radnor

    Radnor Formula Junior

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    With regards to the Boxer-CS comparison, they are totally different animals. The Boxer, at least my BBi, has good torque (by most accounts - factory stats etc - better than the carb'd boxers) and feels like a train. But you can feel the mass of the car. The Boxer handles well, especially in gentle, fast sweepers. But, it is hampered by its mass, high center of gravity and dated construction, not too mention if you have OEM rubber. It is a great GT car and I have no interest in ever giving my boxer up. The CS feels like a go-kart on serious steroids. Point and shoot. Straights between corners disappear. Lightning quick responsiveness, instanteous accleration and direction changes. Maybe not the torquiest engine, but it winds up so fast. Once you have it in the sweet spot....well, you are in the sweet spot. Sliding the boxer around....hairy, for me anyway. I'll push the CS and slide it around all day and feel confident doing it. In any race, it (0-60, 0-180, 40-120, under 140, over 140 etc.) wouldn't even be close.
     
  11. johnvwatts

    johnvwatts Formula Junior

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    #11 johnvwatts, Oct 20, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2008
    I just didn't rate the 360 stradale. It isn't really any quicker in a straight line than a normal 360 (25hp more). On a track those carbon brakes and uprated suspension are good but I felt as a road car its a marketing gimmic. Why pay double a 360 price for better brakes , suspension and no carpets. Its a con. I did like the seats though. I had to run it the whole time in race mode for it to feel exciting. It was being sold to me a modern f40 replacement which it ain't and a classic which won't loose money, which it will. As a road classic I would rather have the handbuilt Boxer which is not only a great classic but fast when properly maintained and set up (both mine have an ignition upgrade). The strad is a great 360 no doubt but I didn't feel it had classic status. Great on the track but the highway? Maybe I'm just paranoid about loosing money on one.

    Interestingly two weeks before I had a ride in a Daytona which was being offered to me. I have to say the guy only took it to 6,000rpm but I thought it felt much slower than my 512BB or 365BB. And handled alot worse . And its double the money.

    To me the Boxer is a great classic which is still fast today and undervalued.
     
  12. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Now that 360's are heading towards $60K one could just buy one and strip out a lot of the crap do a brake and suspension upgrade and presto the 80K stradale like track car, Ill bet it will happen.

    As for daytona vs BBI. About 10 years ago I had my Boxer at LRP with he stock tires still, and the motor ran reasonably OK but not perfect.

    There was someone there with a daytona, cant say whther it was euro or Us spec, but it was not a concours looking car, Maine plates and it had been driven down.

    We did a roll on acceleration from about 60 down the main straight, there really was no difference between the two, wheras at the time the boxer would easily pull a few car lengths on paddle shifted 355's.

    On the corners that daytona was all over the place, no doubt hanging the rear end out was fun but it was slow cornering. Even on the crap stock tires the boxer was in a different league.

    Fast forward and with new rubber the boxer was certainly outpowering 360's comming out of big bend, at the slower speeds there was nothing in it.

    To make a BBI go fast apart from getting the engine to run right, you need to change the exhaust. The stock one not only sounds wheezy but its like a giant cork and heavy. I put a stailness copy of the ansa sport system on my car, like tires this creates a world of difference. A lttle is lost in off idle torque but the motor just gains steam to redline as opposed to declining after 65000 rpm. You do need to run a little leaner and have proper octane fuel though.

    Boxer are finicky beasts, very hard to get right, but they can stay right relatively easily once there if you stay oin top of things. They are also very sensitive to exhaust, mixture and octane.

    Yes there is a lot of weight on up high at the rear, that is why modern rubber is so helpful. It also means that a boxer is driven more like a 911, mistakes are really punished, but like a 911 these cars can talk to you, if you listen though your fingers, hands and arms. It is a hero car, something that feels like hard work even at lower speeds, then you grab it by the scruff of the neck and wring it out and everything falls into place, at the end you are exhausted but fully satidfied. The 360 is by comparison a chick car, maybe that is why most are spiders.

    A Boxer is like a daytona that can hadle, in that sense objectively it is worth more, subjectively the daytona has a classic look and it is the last of the line. But then if a Miura is a 500K car boxers in time will go up, as will all countaches which really are crappy by comparison, but very dramatic in looks, pure art.

    The boxer though has the looks and the moves, it is a design of one not part of a road car design lineage, yet it maitains the classic experience(actualy less civilised than the classics) with modern power and grip, a boxer is an original.
    If the 550 is the modern daytona, then we have yet to see the modern boxer because it is like a early 70's can am car or lemans prototype civilised enough to drive on the street yet never forgetting what it is. This is a formula ferrari has not followed since, mostly because it is only for the truly comited, or perhaps this lineage leads to where the 288 and F40 F50 and enzo, but I think the enzo is soft too.
     
  13. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    #13 boxerman, Oct 20, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2008
    I hear you, I think you have two great cars. If I were to ever not to have a boxer then it would be replaced with a 512Tr if I could handle the looks or more likely 550. As you say these are very different cars.

    Speak with fastradio, he knows all there is to know about sorting a 365BB
     
  14. Radnor

    Radnor Formula Junior

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    Well, the CS is more than just upgraded brakes and suspension...242 lbs lighter, upgraded ECU, revised exhaust, revised aerodynamcis and about .5 seconds faster to 60 (3.8-4.0 depending what you read and who you trust) than the 360. You might be able buy a CS for less than what it would take to make a stock 360 a CS equivalent. Apparently the CS is faster than the 360 Challenge. But whatever...this is the Boxer thread. Don't get me wrong, I love my 512BBi, but to say Ferrari hasn't made cars faster in 20 years is just wrong. And no it's not a F40, they made more of them than they did CS's.
     
  15. johnvwatts

    johnvwatts Formula Junior

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    Nice posts Boxerman. I agree about uprating a cheap 360 with the brakes , ecu, and suspension. Could probably do the lot for £5k thereby saving £50k over the stradale. Or buy a 360 challenge race car for £60k and have £30k left for a road 355.

    I suppose I struggle also with the high production numbers and depreciation of the modern Ferraris. And the looks. Lets face it, competant as they are the 430,599 and california are not exactly lookers are they? The Boxer at the time was a low volume (387, 900,1001 ish) production run and you had to be someone special to own one. The modern ones are much more accessible (finance deals etc ) (were!) and just common.

    I really would like Ferrari to produce a new car I actually want to own. As things are the newest Ferrari I own is 1990. And the next one I'm likely to buy is another Boxer which has come up cheap. Which will make three. And this one I might track even race as its had a diff rebuild and its got hc pistons. And i'm much more excited about that than having a Strad or a 430.
     
  16. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    chalk and cheese.
    the 456mgt is like an executive jet, vs the 512bbi as 25 year old exhibition fighter.

    the brakes and handling on the 456 as a front engine car are never going to be as good as a mid engine car. that being said, the brakes on my completely stock bbi are nothing special.

    the real difference is to be found at over 120mph. the bbi on stock tires is not confidence inspiring. the 456mgt can run all day long at 150mph plus.

    but you guys are making me think i need to include a few more updates in the winter renovation that the bbi is going for soon.
     
  17. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    If getting maximum performance is a concern, leave the Boxer stock and get a 512TR or a 512M.

    The Boxer and the 456 feel completely different-- as they should. I think the Boxer really was intended as a GT car, and as a GT car it's beaten in almost every respect by the 456. As a sports car, neither of them is at home on tight twisty roads, but both are fun in their own way. As a taste of a 70s supercar, with tremendous styling, noises, and feel, the Boxer can't be beat. The 456 is much better for high speed long distance trips-- the role of a GT car.
     
  18. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    Paul,

    As I told you last night...I'm selling my 365bb and getting a Mondia 8 (with "cleaned", but not replaced fuel injectors) because everyone "knows" that Ferrari made no faster of a car. (Inside joke, guys!)

    Regardless, a fully-sorted Boxer, no matter if it's a "Choir boy" BBi or the rawest of them all, the quintessential 365bb, is a formidable threat even against a more contemporary Ferrari, particulary if they're on modern rubber.

    Mssr. Boxerman: Thank you for the compliment.

    Regards,
    David
     
  19. 512bbnevada

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    #19 512bbnevada, Oct 21, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2008
    Dean Batchelor wrote the Boxer was the first Ferrari is years to give drivers a feel what a Ferrari race car was like, even in the Nichols book the Boxer was referred at the time it came out as a detuned F1 Ferrari in street bodywork, the next Ferrari to give the same experience was the F40 according to him. While I love my BB for what it is its also exhausting in a way after a long days driving around the car requires your full attention similar to a Superbike, the newer Ferraris you can just drive all day such as my 355, they are not as visceral but do everything well with no drama, I would imagine a 456 or 550 even more refined and relaxed than even a 355 or 360 so thats my take

    Those that have handling issues should replace your old shocks and probably worn out springs as I have and also check your 4 wheel alignment, my BB is rock solid at speed and precise with a great ride and almost no lean in the corners, my brakes have been upgraded to period correct BBLM calipers and drilled disc rotors and the car stops on a dime no fade the limiting factors are the 15" tires clearly
     
  20. haroonok

    haroonok Formula 3

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    And the next one I'm likely to buy is another Boxer which has come up cheap. Which will make three. And this one I might track even race as its had a diff rebuild and its got hc pistons. And i'm much more excited about that than having a Strad or a 430.[/QUOTE]

    interesting...do tell us more.
     
  21. Radnor

    Radnor Formula Junior

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    Yes....lots of chat time spent on comparing one ferrari to another, which is better, more visceral, truer to Enzo's vision, more exciting etc. etc. The Scuderia-Stradale, Boxer-TR, F40-F50 essays are almost never ending. Most, maybe not all, ferraris are great machines. Each has a slightly different personality or character. Depending on the driver, the weather, the road (or track), your mood on any particular day etc, one might suit you more than another. Whether it be drifting through twisties at relatively low-speed in a skinny-tire 246, high-speed cruising in a 456 in luxury, driving to a track and tearing it up in a stradale and then driving home or cruising ocean blvd in a drop top 360, there is the perfect ferrari for every occasion. That is why most people need more than one, or any one type, ferrari.
     
  22. Radnor

    Radnor Formula Junior

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    ....and, dare I say, even a porsche, BWM or even an Evo......blasphemy!!
     
  23. johnvwatts

    johnvwatts Formula Junior

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    This is a great post. Sort of what I was trying to say but didn't manage it. Its interesting to hear f car comparisons and I've enjoyed this thread. No more info yet on the 3rd Boxer. Going to see it this wk end. .....................
     
  24. jimangle

    jimangle F1 Rookie

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    Boxerman,

    Great description of the boxer experience. I'm sure a boxer with modern rubber, upgraded exhaust (being properly tuned), is probably almost 180 degrees better than what you started out with. I've always liked boxers, but I've never read too many posts like yours describing how it is compared to the newer models. That rawness is why I like the older Ferraris.

    Thanks for the post,
    Jim
     
  25. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    #25 boxerman, Oct 22, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2008
    Yes you dare, there are many great cars. Performance has been democratised by the above, ferrari still has the edge on design and passion, although arguably the new Gallardo and possibly Vette ZR1 are up there too.

    Sometimes I try to explain to my wife the need for many different cars, its like eating or cloths you use different things depending on moood conditions and places visited. Plus the same thing everyday can be a bit of a headache, of course I am not sure where that leaves the wife. So sometimes if we only had to have one, which one would it be that was still usable but kept the flames burning, no doubt such a creature would be high maintanance, but either way it's not a 456.

    A boxer would be a mistress though, classy but still youthful, great fun but too wearing for everyday use.

    I guess the best everyday use would be a M3 or amg cls, then you have the ferrari for the weekends, lucky person.

    Seriously though an EVO or STI as a bang around winter blaster and a GT3 for the track would expand the repotoire on the boxer nicely. Oh and maybe a V12 e type for when one is in that mellow classic mood.

    So lets see, a boxer at 150K a M3 50K Evo 35K GT3(used) 85K Jag 50K = 370K so maybe an old alfa giuletta to round it out to 400k, but then who could resist a Lotus exige and a morgan +8 so call it 500K. Then say 15K per year in insurance. Maintanace probably another 15K maybe 20 if you play on the track a bit or need a rainy day fund for when something goes boom. Storage? the time to service park etc all these cars? So maybe not possible.

    OR

    You could just get 1 Nissan GTR which does nearly everything above and a 328 GTS for that classic/convertible/ferrari experinec, or maybe a 355GTS for a bit more go than the 328 Say 130K max 5k insurance and 5K maintanace.

    OR

    .....how about a boxer, a GTR and a lotus exige s for the track close to 300K, but then do you need a GTR, so you could have a Boxer for road fun, a M3 as a driver and a Lotus for the track. Or better yet how about a Boxer for fun and a GT3 as a driver/ track car 235K, but if you shunt a GT3 its $$$ down the drain so it is back to Boxer m3 Lotus 250K 7K maintanace including boom fund 5K insurance. Sometimes one can be so practical, now to explain it to the family CFO(wife). The logic is like this, safer than motorcycles(bad logic because there is always a bike) and so absorbing no other woman would or could possibly be a distraction. Ah yes enough cars to negate the mistress, keep you home, at least in the garage and happy. As Borat would say GOOD TIMES

    Interesting for less than the price of a new F-car you can have 3 cars including an iconic f-car and a lot more fun. At the end though 4 years later the M3 and lotus will be worth 50K and the Boxer will stand the chance of appreciating somewhere in the next 5 years by say 50-100k so apart from maintanace you could come out square.

    Now if the price of cars collapses and you can buy a 288 gto for 300K somewhere in the next 10 years it will probably be 600K even if you did not sell it you would have one of the greats. Best keep the powder dry then. How trackable are evos?
     

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