Have attached a draft sheet of an overview of available ignition systems and replacements, including a personal rating. Let me know whats missing or wrong, will update the overview then and post a final version. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Adrian contacted me for details of the installation...here is my reply. I used the XR700 optical pickup amplifier (required to drive the LED and photodetector, and to condition the signal) in both cases. I feed this output directly into the MSD. The installation notes supplied with the devices explain everything. In the Dino I installed both devices (the XR700 and MSD) in the trunk. The XR700 connector wire to the distributor is rather short, and hence it was installed in the trunk at the same location as the old Dinoplex. I installed the MSD on the floor of the trunk in the right corner where there is a recess. I placed some foam on the floor of the recess to cushion shock. System works great. The Crane connector wire can be lengthened if necessary. I telephoned Crane to ask about this. The length issue is driven by electrical noise in the EMI (electromagnetic interference) environment of the engine compartment. However, a few inches to a foot or more should not be an issue. In the Alpine-Renault A110 I installed both devices, along with required Tach Adapter from MSD, on the passenger side firewall. Installation, otherwise (electrically) was identical to above. I chose the Crane versus MSD equivalent because of experience with the device, ease of installation and diagnostics (and timing with the visible LED on the Crane amplifier). The MSD 6A does not care what feeds its input, whether Crane, mechanical points, or other MSD device. Hope this helps. Jim S.
Perma-tune has a simpler box at a lower price for those who just want spark. I believe that the price in the chart is a rebuild of a Dinoplex, concours correct on the outside, new guts. Costs more that way. Chart looks good. Most folks seem to have gone for the MSD unit. Price makes a difference. They all work, if they work at all. Plugs help immensly. Dinoplex was ahead of its time. Transistors were not up to the job in the 60s and the box died. By the 80s, anything would last if designed reasonably. NGK Platinum plugs ignite anything with anything. Iridium is better. Solid conductor plug wire is a must. The fact that the super high energy or double pulse units will fire conventional plugs is a "so what" Conventional plugs still wear out quickly. Precious metal plugs last forever. Worth it. John
Thanks for the input, i'll correct the Perma Tune entry to reflect the price of the simpler box (PTFR, correct?). The Dinoplex was one of the first devices at that time to use the new power darlington transistor from Motorola, todays darlingtons are much more robust and temperature resistent. If the AEC103A would be easier to repair (being a completely sealed unit), it would still make a decent CD ignition unit today, imho. I would recommend to use spiral wound (Helicoil) ignition cables when using a multi spark box to reduce interference.
I looked at my receipts and in early 1994 my PermaTune replacement using my own Marelli AEC103 box cost USD$425.00 through GT Car Parts. While John is right that the Transistors were ancient, I think there may be a little more to the failure mode as these early units may have had no short circuit protection. I heard of several cases that when jump starting the car the Marelli would die. This also happened in Bosch units to us Maserati owners so it wasn't unique to supplier Marelli and seems linked more to the technology of the time.
So anyone using an ignition system/setup i have missed in the table? Let me know. Thanks, Adrian Image Unavailable, Please Login
Here is the finalized document with the alternative ignitions listed, please ignore the older versions. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Sorry - one more. I now have the Crane XR3000 in my Dino. It's the high performance version of the XR700, though I'm not sure what "high performance" means in this case. It works well, however. Installation and wiring of both units seem to be the same.
Thanks, i'll include it in the next update. Apparently it has a higher output than the XR700, so you might be able to use larger spark gaps for better combustion, and plug fouling will be less an issue.
Adrian - good work on the survey. One observation, if I may. Your questions do not allow for the combination of an optical (or Hall effect) pickup feeding a Capacitive Discharge system (MSD or Crane). You provide for one or the other. In addition, I believe that the XR3000 represents the optical pickup and the CD in a single unit. But I am not sure. Must double check this. Jim S.
Jim, sorry for the confusion. With the poll i was looking for the ignition itself, somewhat ignoring the trigger type. So the combination hall/optical trigger and MSD would count as MSD entry (this is also the setup i have). Crane lists the XR3000 as high power version of the XR700 (90 instead of 60 mj), it is a transistorized inductive ignition. Crane's capacitive discharge product line starts with the HI-6 boxes.
Adrian, Nice work on the list. Under the MSD 6AL unit, you have the notation that the 2nd set of points are to be removed. Do I understand this correctly, and why? Thanks Steve
Steve, good point! I've just realized that this is only true for US spec Dinos. US cars have 6 lobe cams and use the second set of points for the retard circuit at idle. As the retard circuit would be removed with the Dinoplex, the second set of points is not required with the MSD setup (and should not used to trigger the MSD). On the Euro spec cars with the 3 lobe cams however the second set of points was used to increase dwell, so you still need them with the MSD to trigger all cylinders. I'll correct that in the next update, thanks for noticing!
So, this should be a mostly error free and final version of the overview for now. Enjoy! Image Unavailable, Please Login
The most current version of the document is now available here, it will be updated regulary: http://www.dinoplex.org/overview_dino_ignitions.pdf Best, Adrian
Adrian, thank you for putting this table together and sharing. please can you or anyone else confirm that the: Pertronix Ignitor Distributor Conversion (MR-161) is compatible with the standard Marelli S125 BX-15 distributor runing the 6 lobe cam. I have contacted Pertronix several times and not got a clear answer. Kevin
It seems that Pertronix ships a sleeve which is compatible with a three as well as a six lobe cam, one side is the three lobe cutout, the other side has the shape of a six lobe (which i could not verify, having the european version). I've send an email to pertronix early this year regarding the sleeve and got the following answer: "It is not unusual for us to use the same sleeve for different kits. If you look on the inside of that sleeve where the green tape is, youll see that it has a three lobe configuration to it and the top has the six flat sides." The Pertronix catalogue only lists the MR-161 for a three lobe cam but except of the shape of the cam everything else should be the identical for both distributor types. If you plan to only install a Pertronix MR-161 in your original six lobe cam ignition setup, you need to modify the Dinos factory wiring. This is not required when triggering an aftermarket ignition system such as the Bosch 137 amplifier or an MSD 6 ignition, which replaces the original ignition wiring. See attachment for installed baseplate and sleeve lying on top of the hole for the camshaft. If the baseplate can be installed (using the same hole or adding one if required for the six lobe version), and the sleeve can be fitted on the six lobe cam with the magnets (green tape stripe) on the correct height, it should work. Note that i had to make a tiny shim from 0,1 mm copper foil for my three lobe cam to cater for the shim/cam tolerance. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Adrian, thank you for the reply, If i understand your description and photo correctly: 1) The black ring resting in the centre of the photo, is the part that pushes onto the cam and contains a magnet that triggers the fixed mounting with cables. 2) The black ring face showing has a 6 flat cut out that may be suitable for the 6 lobe cam. On the underside of the ring is a three flat cut out for the 3 lobe cam which you are using. Have I understood that part correctly? 3) dose the baseplate to which the sensor is bolted, come with the Pertronix kit, or is that something that needs to be made up? 4) is the single mounting screw in the baseplate pre-drilled or did you have to find the appropriate location to get the trigger point with repsect to cylinder 3 firing? looks neat and very tempting. Some more thoughts: each piston fires once every 720degrees. a spark must be released every 720/6=120 degrees of crank rotation. the distributor rotates at half the speed of the crank so a spark is needed every 360/6=60degrees of distributor rotation. so since there is a single sensor, there must be 6 magnets in the ring, and it should be a direct replacement for my set 6 lobe set up. (I just need to remove the R2 emission control cable as redundent). Does that sound correct? With your 3 lobe set up, what is the idle adavance and how do you get around the 6deg retard for idle used on the 6 lobe cam set up. thanks Kevin
