F50 Tub Lifespan | FerrariChat

F50 Tub Lifespan

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by opus10583, Mar 6, 2007.

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  1. opus10583

    opus10583 Formula 3

    Dec 3, 2003
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    In another sub-forum F-chat member Rifledriver mentions "F50 tubs have a life of 10 years".

    Can someone please educate me about this?

    Why, what's the limiting factor?

    Was this disclosed at purchase?

    Have any F-50 been re-tubbed? ...They all should have been two years ago.

    What's the book time on swapping an F-50 over to a new tub every 10years?

    Etc.

    TIA
     
  2. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Cars have been retubbed and there is no book time.
     
  3. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    *99999* is for sale and saw very little use. Would it need a new tub? Is it age or stress that determines this repair? Thank you!
    CH
     
  4. 410SA

    410SA F1 Veteran

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    #4 410SA, Mar 6, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Omigawd! I'm driving a car with a dead tub!! It's surely the best looking corpse out there :)
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  5. MGD416

    MGD416 Formula 3

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    thats for sure

    its beautiful
     
  6. rcm360

    rcm360 Formula Junior

    Nov 16, 2003
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    Reese
    I believe that the fuel cells need to be replaced every 10 years, not sure about the tub, although I have heard this before.
     
  7. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Does yours have standard exhaust ?

    It should be a requirement for you to post a monthly portfolio of your cars :)
     
  8. cntchds

    cntchds Formula 3

    Oct 22, 2005
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    Peter Hatch
    If she breaks, I'd be glad to take her in. Free of charge ;)
    :D

    Peter Hatch
     
  9. 410SA

    410SA F1 Veteran

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    She's dead already apparently, being twelve years old, but I'm happy to keep her, like Weekend at Bernie's
     
  10. Ado4wd

    Ado4wd Formula Junior

    Dec 27, 2005
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    I thought you had a black F50 for some reason.
     
  11. 360C

    360C F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Fuel cell replacement is noted in the literature, tubs are most definitely not.
    Would love to see someone post an official reference to it :)
     
  12. GTB4NART

    GTB4NART Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2004
    421
    The degradation of carbon fiber-reinforced epoxy exposed to ultraviolet radiation, oxygen and/or condensation is rapid and significant. The epoxy matrix is the weak link and these environmental factors result in a reduction in mechanical properties. Circa 1995, epoxy was not as advanced as it is today, even in aerospace configuration. The transverse tensile strength will decrease by 29% after only 1000 hours of cyclic exposure to UV radiation (yes even in a garage there is some UV exposure) oxygen and condensation. Constant matrix erosion would ultimately limit effective load transfer to the reinforcing fibers and lead to the deterioration of mechanical properties even along the fiber dominated material direction.

    This is the reason that the Kroyman's F1 car broke in half. It simply does not happen with an alloy/steel frame. Personally, I would not engage in high speed, high load driving in a full carbon tub older than 5 years. It's possible that the F50 tub was created with significant multi-layered carbon sections to last very long. If your carbon tub had continuous walls 10 inches thick, you would absolutely be safe for 100 years (or more). Ferrari should have the appropriate answers.



     
  13. GTB4NART

    GTB4NART Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2004
    421
    #13 GTB4NART, Mar 7, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Kroymans pic


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  14. red355

    red355 Formula Junior

    Jan 30, 2007
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    Didn't Kroyman's car break on the seam of where it was extended to accommodate his height?
     
  15. Zegna

    Zegna Formula Junior

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    I second that. A weekend at Bernie's is always a fun weekend. :)
     
  16. GTB4NART

    GTB4NART Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2004
    421
    Ross Brawn said it was not extended. It was a factory tub made in 1998. Lots of info. on this story on the web. The seam is rumor.

     
  17. mattymouse33

    mattymouse33 F1 Rookie

    Oct 25, 2004
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    Surely the cut is far too clean and straight on the tub?
     
  18. GTB4NART

    GTB4NART Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2004
    421
    #18 GTB4NART, Mar 7, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Looks like Ron Dennis scored it with a hacksaw but since we don't know the bagging/autoclave/layup process then it could be any number of reasons for that type of break. Schumis British GP crash showed similar shearing. Some have even runored that they are the same car....highly doubtful. I've seen an F40 where some of the epoxy was really yellowing and flaking. The kevlar/carbon was also very discolored. I've seen bicycle frames shear exactly like that Kroymans Ferrari (very clean) and it was in an area of no joint.


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  19. TopElement

    TopElement Formula 3

    May 14, 2005
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    Is this from an advanced composites book? Seems like you have some specific numbers to ensure the safety of carbon tubs that specialists aren't aware of.

    The crash of Kroyman's F399 is no sole reason to question the longevity of all composite structures or bonded joints in composite structures. Hardly a fair starting point. Also, it seems to me that it's being suggested these structures are dangerous after a relatively short amount of time, although the Kroyman example was a 5 year old racecar. It was designed to be as light as possible, and only had to last a season at most. Quite different construction than roadgoing chassis'.
    A large enough impact could cause a major failure like this only five days after manufacture, so age could easily have had absolutely nothing to do with the failure. Although it's not really clear from the pics, it does looks as though the bond may have been suspect. Location and type of joint is a bit odd, but that's a design related issue. Although a strange place for a bond, it's a very clean break and not common when there are so many plies in various orientations, along with a core material. Perhaps on a unidirectional layup, but that's not the case in an F1 tub.
    Looking at the pics in larger format, one can see where the adhesive appeared not to have bonded to the carbon in places, for example at the top (driver's) right-hand corner of the failure.
    All in all, IMO it's not the best example to base a discussion of carbon tub lifespan.
     
  20. GTB4NART

    GTB4NART Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2004
    421
    I was involved in financing a carbon-tubbed car and I've tested/evaluated carbon bits in various fields over the past 20 years. I have 23 year old carbon parts that will snap like peanut brittle if stressed even slightly. At the end of the day, the glue that makes everything hold together is just not stable over a very long period (10 years?) given all of the daily atmospheric conditions it is subjected to. I agree that the Kroymans example is not an appropriate reference wrt to the long-term viability of an F50 tub.

     
  21. Senna1994

    Senna1994 F1 World Champ
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    What does this mean for the McLaren F1 cars out there? Do they have the same issues?
     
  22. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    Intuitively, one would think that the carbon fiber tubs should last a long time...

    We live in an age where many corporate jets are made of carbon fibre/composites/etc. And these planes put in tons of hours, and are not laying up in a hanger 90 hours a week.

    Its difficult to believe that anyone would spend 10MM+ for a plane that would be "brittle" in 10 years...quite unlikely.

    Keep in mind that fiberglass boats/hulls/planes also contain 90%+ epoxy in their structure. 40 years later, the boat still floats...
     
  23. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
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    Maybe I will be able to afford one soon afterall. ;) :D

    I'm really interested in hearing more about this subject from knowledgeable sources. To say that a car like the F50 only has a 10-year lifespan in it's original form is really quite surprising to me.

    >8^)
    ER
     
  24. TopElement

    TopElement Formula 3

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    That's darn near impossible. Fiberglass parts, especially boats, are about 45-55% resin. Also, it's usually not epoxy, but polyester. Boats can be and are a lot "softer", and the fact that it floats doesn't mean it's strong.
    I think this hype is excessive.
    Carbon tubs do fine over time, it's impacts that kills them. Yes, the resin matrices and bonds degrade somewhat, but delamination is usually the cause of failures.
     
  25. opus10583

    opus10583 Formula 3

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    +1
     

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