The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Sorry, Art - I had assumed everybody reading these threads would have known (why so many '60's and later Ferrari racecars, including the P4, were built as R.H.D.) Simple - in those days (and still is the case), the majority of European race circuits ran clockwise - so it made it easier for the drivers to line-up with (and 'clip') apexes of corners. It didn't seem to be a problem for the P4's at Daytona in '67 (where they finished 1-2-3 abreast) when the had to run (anti-clockwise) on parts of the banked oval.

That is a 'baptism of fire', Art ! My own first experience of driving on the 'wrong' side of the road (and first time in an 'automatic' came in '83, in the USA - a couple of years after I had joined Intel. I had a business trip to Phoenix (then Product Service HQ). Flew into LA the previous Friday. Stayed over with a slot-racing pen-friend, and stayed up virtually all weekend, talking cars, and slot racing. Did Briggs Cunningham's museum in Costa Mesa on the Staurday. He dropped me at LAX on Sunday afternoon. Rented a Mustang from Hertz ('83 Mustangs were a BIG disappointment), and I drove overnight to Phoenix, arriving at 4:00am Monday, for an 8:00am meeting ! Not much traffic around then, though !

 

In sum, if Jim has a real P3/4 engine, trans, body, Ferrari-remanufactured suspenstion/and or wheels, and a piper reconstructed tube frame, _ seems like he has a real Ferrari P3/4. (and IF some of those parts are from 0846-he's got a real P3/4 with many significant parts from 0846). The thing is the sum of its parts.

The semantic distinctions and incomensurable arguements bantered around this thread are pretty funny. What makes a car have a claim to provenance first has to be defined in order to be analyzed. There have been many definitions of what makes a race car have a claim to provenance, but lets just say that if one has parts of the chassis, the engine, trans, and some suspension, you've got it. Fall short and I think you've got part of it.

Much of this debate centers around a few tubes, and whether they are original or not. I find this interesting, but in my opinion whether this car is a real P3/4 does not turn on this fact alone. Nore does determine alone whether the car IS 0846. I think everyone will agree with this.

Surely the car is a sum of its parts. I think everyone will agree with this.

People should be more curious as to how much of Jims car's parts are real P3/4 parts. If the people whom sold Jim the parts represented they were genuine P3/4 parts, with exception of the tube chassis, which was a piper recreation, then Jim can certainly believe he's put together a real Ferrari P3/4. Sounds like Jim believes that most all of the major components of his car are genuine. If this is true, in my opinion the car is a real P3/4, very different from a replica P4, raced by people on this site. Period.

If Jim is wrong about his parts, then the conclusion is wrong. If he's wrong about some and right about others, I think next question is how much is he right and how much is he wrong.

On the other hand, if Jim has put together some major P3/4 parts, and purchased what was represented as a real P3/4 body, then I hope for all concerned that it is a real P3/4 body. A genuine body is a significant factor in determining whether a car is a genuine car, as opposed to a replica.(but certainly not the only factor, or even the most important factor). But if Jim has genuine P3/4 engine, trans, some suspension, and complied many other genuine parts, then the addition of this important factor becomes somewhat more important in determining the genuine nature of the car.

I dont know what happened, and I'd suggest that no one should make statements about what happened if they dont know. If you've make affirmative statments that you know are wrong, you can get yourself in trouble. If some of the statements are correct, and I hope not, there could be trouble. I've heard comments from someone that some parts may have been switched prior to Jim's purchase. I hope thats not true. More specifically I hope real parts were not switched with recreations. Caution fellows. Becareful of spreading Bullsh-t. Even though we are dealing with allegations that cross international lines, you can still stir up major laibilty that could land you in a US court, and stir up countless victim-lawyers who would be happy to chase it down any culprits.

 

I would have thought that it made driver changes easier at places like Le Mans, where the driver could enter and exit the car without walking all the way around it.

 

Both reasons are correct. The former more so as even sprints without pit stops had more right hand turns but at longer races being closer to the pits helped and at LeMans where the pit lane was very narrow it kept you out of the way of cars wizzing by.

 

My last word on this issue (that I should have included in an earlier post) ....
It's a great shame (IMO) that many of the 'higher-end' U.S. Ferrari P4 replicas (such as the Jim Carpenter-built 330GT V-12 car, mentioned elsewhere in a couple of threads, and similarly, all the Norwood P4's built) are spoiled, from an authenticity standpoint (IMHO), by the prospective owners instisting on L.H.D.. Once they decide upon L.H.D., then naturally, a centre gearshift follows (for ease and comfort of use - as opposed to the L.H. sill), and you end up with a mostly 'incorrect' interior.
Why did they choose to go this route ? So they could drive on the 'wrong' side of the public highway ! In most cases, however, it seems that these cars end up getting just (infrequent) track use. So they could (in hindsight) just as easily have been built as R.H.D., with R.H. gearchanges, and have looked so much the better for it .....

 

Paul,

Thanks for the explanation, I actually did know this. When I read your original post you mentioned a joke, so I was expecting something other than the published reason.

Regards,

Art S.

PS. I agree with you on RHD vs. LHD on P4's. The driving position for both seats is rather central, so I doubt it make that much difference driving wise.

 

Just out of curiosity, what do people think of the McLaren M6B? I believe they made a few road-going ones. It seems like a good fit for Jim's '60s supercar collection.

Art S.

 

So is a Favre GTO, exact replica in every way, a real GTO? I guess, to paraphrase Bill Clinton, that depends on the definition of "real". What if a hood from an original GTO was used for the body? Then is it real?
I thought the point of this thread was not whether Jim's car was a P3/P4, but rather how likely it is to be 0846-specifically different people's thoughts on what the essential parts were that carried the essence of a particular car that has historical significance. An important question thats obviously not easy to answer-if it was this thread would have 5 posts.

 

ok....recap for me...sorry

So Lawerence Sthrol has one of the REAL Ferrari P4s it is a yellow coupe...

where are the others? How many were REAL P4s and not P3/4 ...I thought 5 or 6, but i keep hearing those cars were not true p4s....

Was 0846 originally a barchetta or coupe?

-jt

 

Please refer to Wax's excellent listing of all the 0846 (?) threads:

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7370

It will not take long to find your answers.

Pete

 

Obviously you didn't read the email sent to P4Replica by P4Racer? It's been taken off the forum at the request of P4Racer. If you read post #406 by Napolis you can get a general idea of what it was about. The only statements of any wrong doing were made as the result of the said "email". They were the words written by P4Racer, and no one has stated that the email was false or fictitious.
Some times its hard separating the facts from the Bullsh-t, but if its sitting right in front of you in the form of an email that is not disputed as being a forgery, it's pretty simple.

 

Max's email Post 241 has not been removed. Max did ask for it to be removed but it hasn't nor IMO will it be. As for John he's very much aware of Max's email. At this point I'm reminded of what Bob said: "Don't speak to soon for the wheel's still in spin..."
A close friend of mine a well know Public Defender once remarked that the jails would be empty if people simply kept their mouths shut. Strangely many don't...

 

Lawrence Stroll owns both the ‘REAL’ P4 #0856 and the ‘yellow coupe’ #0850 which is actually a 412P.
Suggest you check up on ‘Barchetta’ for a brief history lesson. See:

For P3/4 #0844 – www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0844.330P3.htm
For P3/4 #0846 – www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0846.330P3.htm
For 412P #0848 – www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0848.330P3.htm
For 412P #0850 – www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0850.412P.htm
For 412P #0854 – www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0854.412P.htm
For 330P4 #0856 – www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0856.330P4.htm
For 330P4 #0858 – www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0858.330P4.htm
For 330P4 #0860 – www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0860.330P4.htm

This info on this site is neither 100% accurate nor up to date, but it’s as good as anything you’ll find on the Web.

I think a possible reason that no-one has previously answered your question is your use of terminology.
‘Barchetta’ (meaning ‘little boat’) is a term used more usually used in Ferrari circles in reference to 50’s open sports cars such as the 166MM. 60’s open cars are more usually referred to as ‘Spyders’. Funnily enough, however, the older term ‘Berlinetta’ was still used to refer to the closed roof cars ....
So to paraphrase your question: Was 0846 originally a Spyder or Berlinetta? The answer is –
#0846 started life as a 330P3 Spyder and was converted to a P3/4 Spyder at the end of the ’66 season. It remained in Spyder configuration, until it’s racing career prematurely ended in a fire at Le Mans in 1967.

If you do take the trouble to read back through the Old FerrariChat threads, I suggest you exercise some caution. There are some incorrect and misleading statements in some of the posts, such as:

“#23 The Daytona winner is 0846 my car which began as P3 Berlinetta 0846 and was converted by Ferrari into P4 0846 which raced as both a Berlinetta and a spyder.” and “0846 began as a P3 and was converted to the first factory P4.” (which, in fact, was actually #0856 – which started life as a Berlinetta !)

….. which will only serve to confuse. Hope the above (in bold type) helps to clarify ….

 

Paul
Once again your statement:

"If you do take the trouble to read back through the Old FerrariChat threads, I suggest you exercise some caution. There are some incorrect and misleading statements in some of the posts, "

is defamatory and actionable as such. Stating that someone is incorrect is quite different than stating they have made "misleading statements".

 

Jim.
Please accept my apologies.
1). I did not actually say that it was you that had made those statements.
2). I did not say 'deliberately misleading', which is the expression that I personally would have used, had I intended to antagonise you.

I just looked up the definition of 'misleading' in www.dictionary.com - it comes up with the following meanings:
1). To lead in the wrong direction.
2). To lead into error of thought or action, especially by intentionally deceiving. See Synonyms at deceive.

My use of the word 'misleading' was intended as defined in (1).
If you had interpreted it as defined in (2), then again, please accept my apologies.

 

Paul
I do accept your apologies.

 

I stand corrected about the post being deleted, I didn't look back far enough. I think Bob and your lawyer friend are both passing along good advice. Thats something I'll remember.

 

This whole thread is turning into the old Star Trek episode entitled "The Menagerie". Remember the aliens of the planet Talos 4 who kept the humans inside cages. Occasionally the humans rebeled against their captor's way of thinking. The Talosian alien tells the humans:

"Wrong thinking is punishable; right thinking is as quickly rewarded.

I guess we now have to consult our attornies before we dare voice OUR OPINION on this board. Kind of gives you a nice warm feeling doesn't it?

 

P4Replica was right...! THIS IS THE REAL 0846...!!! Here it is... It was repainted, which might be why it's been so easily hidden from all of us for so long...

So anyway, here are the pictures...

This model was given to my by our own Gus, the night before i left for Georgia... This is the most prized possession in his whole collection and he gave it to me as a sort of good luck gift... i have the COOLEST friends...

Thanks, Gus... You rock.

 

Hate to rain on your parade, Carbon .... but this is a model of #0844 (as run by N.A.R.T. at Le Mans in '67) -
Not #0846. But if you like, I've got a spare set of Carpena 1:18 decals that you could convert a Revell/Jouef #3005 P4 Spyder with. LOL

 

Skeet, it was meant as a joke... i think i'd know by now if 0846 ever raced NART... Thanks, though. Sigh...

 

NNO,

I think it is a fake, I can see a few details that are just not right. I'll like to examine your forensic evidence also because I'm sure that plastic chassis' not what they originally made 0846 out of, and that gearbox () is definitely not genuine ...

Also I thought 0846 ran on Firestones ... and your car is on Goodyears, thus somebody has changed the tyres, definitely a replica then because it is not exactly as it left the factory ... Horsefly will have a fit!

Pete
ps: I'm also pretty sure that 0846 was a little bigger, but could be wrong

 

Reading serious all the post here about Jim`s 330P4 since the first day on.
I`m still wondering about all the comments here.
No problem if this “comments/posts” would just be typed as a question, opinion, thought…a.s.o. But here is the first problem: Some of you are making claims & imputations about Jim`s P4!

Jim is from the first day on totally open and above board with his P4!
He showed us each step of the restoration with many pics!

330P4 was a race car!!! Gents, that means: Many changes/upgrading/modifications during one season has been done. Have a look to the current running Ferrari F1: In 30-40 years you would say, that the car from the 1st.GP 2004 is not the same car as the car from the last GP in 2004…..just looking on some “old” pics!

Jim is all around the world a well known gent with the highest reputation you can get!
(Maybe some of you don`t know WHO Jim a.k.a. Napolis is?!)
Jim is since many years in touch with the leadership of FERRARI in Maranello/Italy.
Yes, they know about Jim & his P4!!!
Yes, they help him and support the restauration project!!!
He has been invited to bring his cars over to Europe for the greatest shows like. Goodwood/U.K. & Villa De Este/Switzerland.
Do you think, they would invite him & his cars if they would be fakes/replicas?
Do you think Jim needs to justify himself here?

Lets face it:
Who of you have ever personal seen Jim`s P4?
-I did!
Who of you have ever personal spoken to Jim and saw all the “original documents” of P4?
-I did!
Who of you have ever seen one of the other original P4`s?
-I did!
Who of you have ever spoken to “Salva”? Jim`s Sicilian mechanic since 20 years!
-I did!
Who of you have ever spoken to the Ferrari leadership in Maranello about Jim`s P4?
-I did!

I have had the privileg, honor & pleasure to be invited from Jim to stay in his house for 2 days. I have spent many hours on Friday & Saturday to see his 330P4 in each detail, saw all the original documents (never shown here-and there is no reason to show them!), spoke to Slava many hours. Of course I have also seen the Ford GT40, the Lola T70 (and drove on the passenger seat together with Jim to the Concours) and the Duesenberg 1931.
(Here is the story & the pics: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20679 )

I`m NOT a Ferrari expert!!!! Just & only a Ferrari driver & lover since many years who comes around the whole world and can see, watch, listen and count together.

Thanks for your time reading my opinions & thoughts
Wolfgang

 

Wolfgang,

I'm jealous, I would like to have all of those experiences. I wouldn't mind, if it's not too much bother, a pass like the one you had at the European GrandPrix (feel free to pm me the details on how it's done). Thanks for posting the pics.

BTW, I could care less if Jim's car is the real thing or a replica or a partial original....but the debate is very interesting and has kept me amused for the last few months. I'd like to thank everyone involved and I look forward to someday finding out the truth or concensus or published opinions...whatever it's a fun ride and a very cool car.

 

Great points. Hopefully, the clueless will get a clue and stop bleating. I have seen the Promised Land!