How Do You Define "SOUL"

this seems like what I am trying to say
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Whoa! Well-written but I disagree. There's a lot of family-name/birth-of-a-marque struggle in the early Porsches as they earned their stripes in motorsports and crawled out from the wreckage of Nazi Germany, and those cars were expertly hand-built. If you've seen the welds on a bare-metal 356 you know what I mean. Plenty of hand-hammered fenders that were banged up again on the track.

Sure, the new ones leave me cold, but the early Porsches are rolling stories. I wouldn't sell Ferry Porsche short. I disagree that Ferrari's, or Italian cars, are the only ones with 'soul'.

Don't get me wrong, I love my 328, even if it's something of a 'bridge' car between classic and modern and might not meet your criteria as being a real Ferrari. But 'soul' goes with an old Jag as surely as it goes with an old Ferrari. Peter Egan wrote about restoring his Lotus Elan once, and he was about to straighten some sheet metal when he pulled it and saw the builders' marks on the back of it: he put the hammer down, because, as he wrote, he didn't want to go disturbing the 'ghosts' in that car.

All kind of a subjective argument, but there you have it...

 

I've had a few niggly: "I'm sure there was something I was going to do" moments in my life, but I've gotta say they've never lasted for over 3 years!

 

let's create a comparison between ferrari and porsche...

two columns. one column is ferrari...list all the soulful attributes down the line.

next...ask yourself if porsch has all of the same attributes and the answer will be YES.

and dont play the f-1 card as porsche would win that if they were to commit to a program today.

so the verdict of he "who has more soul...ferrari or porsche?"

answer...they both do!

pcb

 

I disagree with the poster who said P cars don't have the soul. I think you are mistaken.

Look up 1973 carrera rs, 1995 993 Carerra RS, 1987 carrera club sport, 993 Gt2...all the way up until 996 gt3rs. These are cars with a soul just as much as any Ferrari.

I personally own a 996 turbo, i am the first one who would say the car lacks any soul...its just a fast appliance. But some of the Gt3's and old school p cars are still hardcore...Yes Enzo Ferrari built road cars to fund his racing ambitions , but Porsche still owns more lemans victory than any car out there.

To me racing heritage , engine sounds, harder to drive are the ones that give the cars more soul.

 

This poll is flawed. Soul is not one physical thing, it's the way the car is alive & makes you feel. Impossible to quantify.

 

I think the "soul" starts by just being in the same space with something and is measured by what the individual feels. Its is that rush or emotional response that only that particular car of object gives you.

So the feelings can be given by any and all of what everybody has listed to this point but it ultimately can only be answered by the individual giving the item a "soul".

 

Soul is none of these and all of these.

I call it "personality". If a car is too perfect, too much designed for the masses, then by the simple fact that everyone likes the car equally means few can love the car for it's personality.

Personality does not come from perfection. In fact, the more perfection, the less personality. Personality can be actually a bit grating on you at times. My old 73 Alfa Spider had bags of personality. "Perfect" was not one of the terms I would tag it with.

You can look at it this way....

You love your children. Of course, they are not perfect. Maybe they did something wrong or didn't get a good grade in school. But, you love them even more for who they are, how the struggle and cope, and how they eventually find a way to succeed. Each has a unique personality that you can appreciate.

It's the same for cars. Some have personality, others are like stepford wives. The "relentless pursuit of perfection" as one car maker puts it makes --- tells me that these may be great cars but they lack the very thing that interests me most -- personality.

 

Soul = something that you can't "feel" until you've been in the car.

 

Nonsense. There is absolutely no basis in fact to that far-fetched assumption. Historically Porsche has never done well in Formula One except for their brief partnership with TAG when they supplied engines to McLaren. Today's Toyota inspired remnant of what once was a small, highly effective, motivated, like-minded band of racers and genuine enthusiasts doesn't have the people, focus, committment, and quite frankly, the competence to compete in modern F1, emasculated as it has become. If they were to do well in F1 you can be most certain it would be due to Audi's expertise in endurance racing and racing engineering. Hell, even Ferrari, who practically invented F1 raciing are not looking so good nowadays vs. outfits with real soul. Sponsoring specialists and sticking your logo ( a three-pointed star, for instance ) on the nose doesn't count as being in F1. That's only using your money wisely.

No, Gentlemen, I respectfully submit that it is folly to attempt to endow any cars arbitrarily with an abstract & subjective quality that's so difficult to verbalize as "SOUL". I am reminded of the old axiom " A picture is worth a thousand words" during this discussion. You could write a book with 500 pages and not capture the concept soul in a car, but drive the same car around the block and you will know whether it has it ....or not. When we reflect on the history of the automobile in the twentieth century, we will invariably arrive at the same conclusion: the automobiles that evoke deep emotions in men to whom cars are far more than mere transportation are always the end results of one mans passionate, relentless pursuit of their own and very personal interpretation of the ideal car. Ferry Porsche in his dotage once remarked in an interview: "Der letzte wagen auf der Erde wird ein Sport Wagen sein":. - "The last car on earth will be a sportscar". I suggest that's the first requirement of "soul". Economy of size, which translates to built for two people only without fuzzy after thoughts of 2+2 or any such diluted thinking, extremely responsive, efficient, and most importantly, nothing present which is not absolutely necessary to cover the distance from A to B safely in a minimum of time. That requires a deep, fundamental knowledge of physics and engineering and knowing when to say NO. I'm certain most of you have heard the old adage that engineers design things because they can. Selecting the correct and most appropriate technology to enable the car to handle the forces acting upon it and to allow most of us ( who may or may not be the best, most accomplished drivers ) to safely fullfill our ideas of inspired, soulful motoring is the secret of the best designs.

Just look at a list of road cars generally considered to have soul (and I freely admit to crossing into asssumptive territory at this point)

Bentley Speed Six ( under Sir Owen B )
Alfa - Romeo ( while Vittorio Jano was doing the design work )
Bugatti (under Ettore's steel fist during its golden era )
Ferrari ( but only while under the direct control of "Il Vecchio" )
Porsche ( '48 to '73)
Aston -Martin (the DB era through DB 5)
Mercedes -Benz 300 SL Series ( under Rudolph Uhlenhaut )
Lotus (selected models under the tutelage of C. Chapman... never have drive one- can't fit inside any of them)
Jaguar ('39 to '64 - under Sir Lyons )
Lamborghini ( up to & incl. the Countach......debatable)
McLaren F-1 ( Gordon Murray)

In every case there is always one "Father" of perceived greatness in these cars, and the other essential element, the cars deemed to have soul are always the most complete packages, incorporating aesthetics, co-ordinated performance, what Brock Yates called FtD, the "Fun to Drive" factor ( again with the subjective ), braking, handling, accident avoidance and survival ability, and the indefinable qualities that makes you just want to drop everything, jump into the car and drive hard for the sole purpose of driving hard because the car is so good at it.....if YOU are good enough to bring out the SOUL in the car.

Respectfully

JZG

 

I agree with "wingfeather "

"This poll is flawed. Soul is not one physical thing, it's the way the car is alive & makes you feel."

Physical attributes of the car have nothing to do with a cars soul. Therefore, the poll is wrong and I cannot participate. History adds to the mystique, but not to the soul. I have a MB SL550. It has little "soul" (plenty of history) as compared to the BMW's, Porsche's, and Ferrari's I've owned.

I define soul in a car as the communication between the driver and the car. When the car feels like an extension of yourself you've found it. Absolute performance does not matter.

Jeffrey

 

Does the new California have soul? I haven't driven it so I can't say. If the answer is no, I am willing to bet that it will in 20 years. So IMHO soul can be acquired.


My old 450 SL has soul, but my much newer E320 doesn't. Age may be a factor. Not saying that brand new cars don't have soul.

Also age doesn't equate to soul or acquiring it. Any old Toyota doesn't have soul, but the Toyota 2000GT does.

Does the Supra have soul? No. Will it have acquired soul in 20 years? Maybe.

Does a 6 speed Ferrari have more soul than a paddle shift? Maybe.

I'm more confused now than when I started.

 

It's really about Art. You know it when you see it.

 

This deserves a second post. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

 

I have a 76 308 and a 99 550. The 550 is a wonderful car and I enjoy driving it. However , I feel much more connected to the 308. Maybe it's the stubborn 2nd gear, or the manual steering, or the weber carbs, or the smell of the exhaust. My 308 has soul, my 550 is a great car but soulless. RDS

 

Soul in a car is when, despite knowing that it's a man made machine, created from metal, plastic, rubber, glass etc, you can't help feeling that it's a living, breathing being.

It convinces you that despite looking like others, it's an individual, with it's own little quirks and foibles. It has it's own personality that you have to get to know.

All things with a soul have one thing in common, they're all unique!.

 

Well after owning more than 225 cars, I can tell you, not a single one of them had soul, and I find it rather funny that people think that a car can have soul. The only soul is the driver, and if you are truly a car lover, your car makes you feel great, special, and it moves you. Here's an example, take a car that you think has soul, and the owner drives it once a month and never goes over 55, is never driven to its potential, and the driver is only interested in people seeing him driving it. Can you tell me that car has soul? I would think not. We tend to still think of our boy hood dreams about cars and we take the cars we lusted after then and turn them into more than just a machine, but in reality they are just machines, amazing machines yes, but this is a forum of car lovers and we want our cars to be special, and to most of us they are, but the feeling come from inside you, not anywhere else.

 

I agree, essentially, with carnut but for one important point. Cars evoke emotional responses; some more than others. The soul comes from the driver, the catalyst comes from the car and the driver's relationship with it.

 

Bingo. And Bullfighter alludes to this in post 24. The car doesn't have a soul of its own, rather an artist/engineer/designer has put a piece of himself into the car, and you can feel it. It is not the car's soul, it is its father's soul. You can feel his passion and intent. The feeling that the vehicle wasn't designed for everyone, it was designed not only by him, but for him. If you don't like it - tough. It is what it is, screw you. This gets lost with a commitee of designers. This also tends to get lost when the parent company hopes to make 100,000 of them because of all the concessions needed to find buyers of a vehicle with that message. I've found that vehicles that have a definite "father" tend to stand the test of time and become "great." It has little to do with horsepower or win records. The great automotive artists make stand out machines.

Toyota and GM to me are the flagship of banality and soul-lessness. But when they have men who get to run a project they have turned out great stuff. The Toyota GT2000 was a small team running outside of the Toyota rules, the vision of a few men. When GM had the iron fist of Earl or Akrus-Duntov they made cars that have become "great."

I have works by Ferrari, Taglioni and Tonti currently. And really the Ferrari is the most like a regular vehicle of the three, the most soul-less. And it is the most "designed by commitee" of the three.

 

Ryan, with one big exception, I disagree on the sound issue with respect to street cars. I very much prefer quieter sports cars. In fact, if I hear one more loud lumpty, lumpty V8, or a Honda with a fart can I'm gonna become an environmentalist wacko. Yeah, I know. I'm becoming an old curmudgeon. But what the hell good is it to get old if you can't be a grump?

The one exception is a modern flat-crank Ferrari. One my favorite parts about the old Crystal Cove meets was to hear that Ferrari F1 sound as the cars bailed out onto PCH.

(Race cars are another story. There is so much going on that being able to hear the engine is a major plus.)

Getting back to your soul thing, (Damn, where are those Sam & Dave LPs?), for me it is all about the experience behind the wheel. Here's the most recent example I can think of: (1) Test drive a new Porsche 997. (2) Test drive a new Porsche Cayman. I'll be surprised if you don't get it immediately. The 977 is an extremely competent sports car. The Cayman, however, is alive. It feels dartier and bumpier. It feels like it really wants to run. When you turn, the turn in is instant and crisp. The only modern sports car I have driven that feels the same is a Lotus.

This is the same experience that makes modern Ferraris so much fun to drive. I don't care what the old dinosaurs think.

Dale

 

I would say that the Prancing Horse represents something more important than the physical car, which would fit the definition of being separated from the physical "self." The characteristics of speed, steering and braking can be found in all cars. For me, it's not these attributes that define the soul of a Ferrari.

Can a company have a soul? Certainly. It's the brand image, position and identity that is something aside from a balance sheet or income statement and usually starts with it's creator. Ferrari is no different.

If the Prancing Horse logo was sitting next to you on a plane, what would it say to you? How would it sound? And what would you remember from that experience? I would imagine something quite different than displacement or carbon fiber. For me, that's the soul.

 

If it moves mine, it has one of its own.

 

wow rebirth. what an old thread.

soul is quite easy to define - it's that certain je ne sais quoi.

 

Ok, no one has discussed the unique essence you give to a customized masterpiece. That one vehicle you have created, poured YOUR soul into to become as no other. Maybe you start w/ a Ferrari or Ford.