Inside of a 308 Koni | FerrariChat

Inside of a 308 Koni

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by miked, May 31, 2004.

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  1. miked

    miked Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2001
    898
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    One of the rear shocks on my GT4 was not working properly allowing the tire to contact the fender often when driving on roads that slowly, but completely, cycled the suspension. Over the winter I discovered a split CV joint boot so while I was in there I took the shock apart. Since Konis are "rebuildable" I decided that I had nothing to loose in trying to effect a repair. I suspected that the valves were clogged or that the oil had leaked out over time (although there was no evidence of a leak). What I found was that the main seal had deteriorated to the point that rubber pieces had contaminated the oil (which BTW I measured at much less volume than spec) and clogged every valve and passageway.

    The main seal on my shock (model 82P-1831, 1977 vintage) is a stack of rubber washers compressed so as to squeeze the rod and effect an oil seal. This is straight out of the plumbing industry, in fact the washers are 1.125" OD, .625" ID, .125" thick "stem packing washers" from a small industrial size plumbing valve. I decided to retrofit a conventional oil seal like Koni now uses.

    For those so inclined, the 308 Workshop manual and the Koni website both show cut away drawings of the shock internals. The 308 manual has the washer stack, the Koni website shows a conventional oil seal. The seal holder is machined a little different so I use a few washers under the oil seal to take up some extra space. I also keep the separate wiper seal, one could have used a double ring oil seal instead as does Koni.

    I mentioned working on the shock in another thread and have recieved PMs from a couple people asking for more info and photos. Since I can't figure out how to send photos in PMs (if it is even possible) I decided to post a thread. The main disadvantage of DIY rebuilding is the lack of access to replacement parts if they are needed. Fortunately there isn't much to go bad in these Konis, seals and "O" rings and shock oil are widely available. Also you don't get a shock dyno check of your work although you could have them dynoed by a specialist.

    http://www.koni.com/_cars/_general_info/technology/construction/shockabs.html

    http://home.att.net/~dirt.tech/susp-oil1.htm

    The photos were taken over several months, some resized, different lighting and settings so many aren't as good as I would like.

    The first 4 photos show the pin wrench and the basic assemblies of the shock.
     
  2. miked

    miked Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2001
    898
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    I drilled a hole and a split line in a small piece of plywood to hold the shock's piston without damaging it. The piston is threaded on the shaft, various pieces from "above" and "below" the piston are shown.
     
  3. miked

    miked Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2001
    898
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    I filed a small piece of pipe to fit the seal retaining nut. The washer stack had deteriorated to the point that pieces were coming loose and circulating in the oil supply. The new seal (green) was installed over a couple of plastic spacers. I reused the wiper seal which protrudes though the brass retaining nut. BTW, it's Cicada season in Cincinnati.
     
  4. miked

    miked Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2001
    898
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    The crud that I cleaned out of the shock.
     
  5. miked

    miked Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2001
    898
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    The foot valve. It snaps into the bottom of the inner tube. The seal holder/bearing, as it is screwed into the shock body, locks the inner tube and the foot valve against the bottom of the shock body.
     
  6. miked

    miked Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2001
    898
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    The rebound adjustment nut. When adjusting the shock, the unit is fully compressed with engages the prongs on the nut into the clips on the foot valve. The foot valve, being locked in position by the inner tube and seal holder/bearing can not turn and prevents the adjustment nut from turning when the main shaft is rotated. The turning shaft screws the nut up/down the shaft exposing or covering very tiny holes in the threads on the shaft. During rebound a portion of the oil flow goes through the hollow section of the shaft and exits out any of these holes that are not covered by the nut. Needless to say all of the holes were clogged on my shock.
     
  7. miked

    miked Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2001
    898
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    In the photo above, 2 of the tiny holes can be seen in the threads on the shaft. I didn't measure them but I would guess that they are about .005" in diameter.

    A couple of shots showing how I removed the spring. I worked the 2 retaining pieces though the hole in the side of the pipe with a small "magnet on a stick". I used a piece of PVC pipe, steel would be safer but PVC was what I had on hand. Note that the hole is small to retain the strength of the pipe.

    I still have some work to do before my car is back on the road so I do not know if the "rebuild" is successful. The oil specified in the 308 Workshop manual has been superceded long ago so I don't know it's specs. The link to oil specs (at the top of the thread) shows how many variations of shock oil there are so I ended up just picking one. "Shock" oil (as opposed to "fork" oil) is available at motorcycle shops everywhere.
     
  8. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Miked,

    Clever stuff, but what about the other side?

    Usually you have to replace shocks in pairs so if you change the oil and rebuild one side ... surely you have to 'upgrade' the other side too?

    Always wanted to see the inside of a Koni, thanks.

    Pete
     
  9. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,223
    TN
    I like the Cicada. For some reason I have not seen any yet and we are right in the heart of where they should be. Maybe they are still coming out of the ground.
     
  10. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
    BANNED

    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
    Full Name:
    Phil Hughes
    Excellent Mike.

    There are all sorts of modern seals and oil available for these nowadays. The problem should not re-appear ever if done with modern parts.

    There are many koni agents around, so make sure you get a few opinions before finishing off....and ALWAYS run them up on a shock dyno. Subtle differences in wear, assembly and adjustments often make huge differences in performance.
     
  11. miked

    miked Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2001
    898
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Pete
    After taking the first one apart I did the other side as well. It was in a lot better shape.

    I use to work with an engineer who went on to a job at Koni here in the Cincinnati area (Hebren, Ky, just across the river) and I have toured the rebuild shop so I have seen them apart before.

    Mike
     
  12. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 29, 2001
    18,045
    USA
    Facinating thread. Thanks for documenting this so thoroughly!

    Dave
     
  13. stacy

    stacy Karting

    Nov 2, 2003
    105
    halifax
    Interesting.

    Can you give us the details on the seals, spacing washers, and o-rings you used in your rebuild.

    Thanks,
    Stacy
     
  14. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
    4,334
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    maurice T
    Can anyone tell me if these shocks are adjustable and how do I do this thanks
     
  15. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
    BANNED

    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
    Full Name:
    Phil Hughes
    The rebound only is adjustable by a mechanic. Bump can be re-shimmed by a Koni specialist though if you have any particular requirements. I usually increase bump by 10-25 % when I get shox overhauled. It suits modern tyres a bit better, and helps gives a precise feel to the car.

    The unit must be removed from the car, then the spring must be removed and the bump stop rubber also removed. Then close the shock fully to locate the mechanism, and turn it to your desired postion.

    There are about 4 full turns of adjustment, and all are set to be two turns when built new.

    To do any adjustments on an old shock is a total waste of time and effort. Get the shocks re-built and have dyno graphs printed off for every half turn of adjustment, you can then make educated changes.

    Stiffening the rebound helps reduce roll and pitch a bit, but sacrifices the unloaded tyre grip. You can use it to trim the car balance on track, but the effort involved is better spent elsewhere. Just have the shox re-built and be done with it!
     
    350HPMondial likes this.
  16. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
    4,334
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    maurice T
    Thanks phil what sort of cost do a set of front shocks set you back in melbourne?
     
  17. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    Mike,
    Very interesting. Thanks for the information and the photos.
     
  18. miked

    miked Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2001
    898
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    The seal and O ring are just off the shelf parts available everywhere. Interestingly the seal holder/bearing and the rod (5/8" dia.) are of American dimensions. The original rubber washers were 1.125" OD, .625" ID, .125" thick "stem packing washers" with a thin fiber disk between each washer. The total stack height was .394", taller than the new seal so I used some washers to take up the "extra" space. The new seal is a typical oil seal of the type used on the cams, crankshaft, shift rod etc. (1.125" OD, .625" ID spring loaded lip seal). The wiper seal is widely used on hydraulic cylinders. I used a # 224 "O" ring (2" od, 1 3/4" id, 1/8" thick) to seal the seal holder/bearing to the main shock body. I am not sure what was originally used as my original part was severely deteriorated. These parts are available everywhere, here are some links to examples of what is typically out there.

    http://www.ableindustrial.com/standard_inch_seals.htm
    http://www.allorings.com/

    Once out of the car, the Konis easily come apart and since most 308 OE shocks are at least 20 years old, a good cleaning and fresh oil can make quite a difference. Imagine not changing engine, trans oil, coolant or brake fluid for 2 decades. If you are like me and love to "tinker" with mechanical things and see how they work then this can be a fun project and a good learning experience. The worst that can happen is that you will be back where you started, ie, needing new shocks. If you want the "latest and greatest", "track" your car or just not interested and want to "write the check and turn the key", then buying new shocks would be a better way to go.
     
  19. g60racer

    g60racer Karting

    Mar 2, 2004
    73
    San Diego
    Full Name:
    Brendan Prout
    Obviously, you have the technical skill and know-how to do this work yourself, but why did you choose to do DIY instead of taking advantage of Koni's lifetime warranty on their shocks, which you just voided by taking them apart?

    I just sent mine (with a hair over 200,000 miles on them) in to be inspected, and was issued a brand new set in replacement. Painless and free other than the cost of shipping them to Koni in the first place.
     
  20. miked

    miked Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2001
    898
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    The Koni warranty from their web site:

    "BUILT FOR A LIFETIME

    Last but not least, KONl's are built to last a lifetime. Once you have bought a set of KONl's for your car, they usually will outlive it. KONI street shocks carry a lifetime warranty to the original purchaser for as long as you own the vehicle."

    I am not the "original" purchaser, but I am the original purchaser of the set on my daily driver (with well over 100K miles on them) and they will be going back sometime in the not to distant future.
     
  21. 4re gt4

    4re gt4 Formula 3

    Apr 23, 2002
    2,279
    Roseburg, OR
    Full Name:
    Hans E. Hansen
    That's a 'gotcha' warranty clause that you will find on a LOT of products.
     
  22. g60racer

    g60racer Karting

    Mar 2, 2004
    73
    San Diego
    Full Name:
    Brendan Prout
    AAaaaaah, that explains why they asked me to send in a copy of my registration for the car along with my copy of the receipt for the shocks.
     
  23. absostone

    absostone F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2008
    10,041
    Would of loved to see the photos
     
  24. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
    32,793
    East Central, FL
    Full Name:
    Wade O.
    FerrariChat had a significant server crash back then and many of the images were lost and unrecoverable.

    However, Mike is still active, maybe he can repost them.

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/members/miked.804/
     
  25. absostone

    absostone F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2008
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