Pre Purchase questions

You probably have a different level of expectations relative to the seller's desire to go through the process.
It's best to see the car or have someone look at it where many of your questions will have answers that are self evident. I can understand the seller's POV to a certain extent and what I believe you have here is a mismatched set of expectations on both sides.

It's tough being a first time buyer into a community where there are certain "insider" protocols, but you have to know what you have to know. I would caution you about passing on what could be a good car needing some minor work, due to the recalcitrance of the seller to take time to answer those kinds of questions in writing. To be quite honest, I wouldn't do it either. I would invite to come and inspect the car or have it professionally inspected and then deal with the questions that arose out of the inspection.
The truth is that when you are buying an old car, you are buying an old car and it will not be perfect. It will be up to you to decide what level of imperfection you are prepared to accept, but to ask the seller 20 questions in writing before seeing the car, is IMO a tad overboard. I'm sure others will disagree but c'est la vie.

 

There aren't lots of 330's out there to be had. If you are going to write off a car do it for just reasons and not because the owner is imature. Look at the car with someone who knows that type of a car, or have it PPI'ed before you decide to pass.

john

 

I agree with this response, the seller may have felt he was "on trial" yet not really trying to conceal anything.

 

Asking for all that in writing would definitely be off-putting.

 

He was way too much on the flip side in his manner of reply, even though the answers he gave were essentially correct.

Undoubtedly best that you passed; a seller who's a prick on the front end is taking advantage of your inexperience...this bodes ill for the whole transaction.

In my short but respectably extensive Ferrari-searching experience, I've found that honest private sellers and reputable dealers will answer all questions in a straightforward way, with no sarcasm or intimidating vibes.

During my 9-month 330 GT search in '02, I dropped a couple of cars cold after encountering sellers/dealers such as you describe.

Got lucky last year. I had negotiated with an excellent dealer on a 330 2+2 in August, but didn't buy it; by the time I'd adjusted my sights and done my homework, my current 308 showed up on his website in late November and I jumped on it...and felt totally confident in doing so because of the way he treated me during the 330 negotiations.

 

First impressions are everything in negotiations.

It works both ways.

 

when I was considering selling my 330, nothing was as irritating as someone asking when the timing belt was last changed, which happened a number of times. No such things as stupid questions, but I don't need to know how stupid you really are. If you don't know anything about the cars, you probably don't really want one.

 

There is nothing wrong with this guy asking questions; he is only doing due diligence. If the seller does not want to answer them or seems 'put-out' then I would think he might not want to sell or is trying to hide something. It's the seller's responsibility to make sure the car is everything that he is presenting it as. If the buyer feels uncomfortable, walk. There will always be another.

 

Asking about books and tools, numbers matching, compression numbers, known damage repair and/or missing pieces, and the like should always be expected questions that any seller needs to address in some fashion, because for certain buyers, it's a quick and easy way to weed out a car. Asking about oil leaks, IMHO, is probably not as valuable a phrasing, because the truthful answer is pretty much always "yes".

The seller may also be hoping that a buyer who doesn't ask these questions comes along, so he can rid himself of a car which is hypothetically a totally non-original FrankenFerrari (not that this example is - but if you don't ask, you wont know until its too late).

 

Lots of people aren't "car guys". This owner might have bought the car 25 years ago for not a lot of money, had it serviced by Joe down the street and today has a driver Ferrari. He notices a little oil leaking but no big deal to him. Tools? What does he care about tools?

I bought my Lotus from the same kind of guy. He owned it 29 years, from new, and told me "it has a hydrolic clutch" (it actually is a cable) and the engine "is practically air cooled" (if so, they wouldn't have a reputation of running hot!). He said it was in "showroom condition" and it was filthy, no carpeting on the driver's side, torn seats, etc. But...he had EVERY record from day one, and the car really was quite sound. I paid less than market for it and have been very happy with it since, in spite of the work I needed to do on it. The important things were in top condition, like the engine, clutch and transmission.

This car could be a bargain; anyone in the market should not discount it out of hand because the owner isn't a gearhead.

Ken

 

"explained that I would prefer to do this initial question and answer session by email rather than by phone, so his answers were documented to avoid any misunderstandings if I were to purchase the car"


Really, I'm not sure this rather legalistic approach does you much good. My answer as a seller would be to the effect of: "look, I'll do the best I can answering your questions, I'll fax you all the service records, put you in touch with my mechanic, etc etc, but your best and only protection is a thorough PPI and the car will be sold as is." Having a good car is better than having potential action for breach of representation.

 

the best question to ask is how many miles has the car been driven in the last year or so?
The PPI I had on mine, at a recommended ferrari dealer, came out fine, but within a week of owning it it became clear the car had not been regularly used for some time, with much subsequent expense for repairs as a result. Ferraris, especially vintage ones, get better with use and worse (quickly) with sitting.
My other advise to the prospective new owner would be to scope out the vintage ferrari-experienced repair shop first (if you wont be doing it all yourself). My local new ferrari dealer was ambivalent about servicing the car-I think because the duration it would be in the service bay was too open-ended. After a couple of years and a couple of bad experiences (shop destroying synchros and clutch testing brake work, etc.) I've found a good local place to work on it when it needs work.

 

I have pretty much only bought cars that didn't live up to my expectations, maybe it's me or maybe it's that I don't listen to rule number 1. Get a PPI. I did do this during my Ferrari search and I was warned away from most of the cars I looked at. Especially if you are looking at 330Gt's. At this point these are budget vintage v-12 Ferrari's and as such the owners often don't want to spend what it costs to totally maintain the cars as you probably won't get it back when you sell it. PPI's are $300 - $400, there's most likely an appropriate mechanic near the car you are interested in. Take your time, they are not rare in the Ferrari scheme of things. Get photos and if you like the way the car looks get a PPI and then ask your questions. Oh, and if you drive it expect to spend tens of thousands of dollars on maintenance no matter what shape the car is in.

You will enjoy driving the car, you will enjoy the vintage community and being part of the very interesting history. And you won't see a version of your car on every corner. Where do you live? Good luck.

Best,

Yale

 

Asking about books and tools on a car where replacing them if they are missing is gonna cost more than a new Mustang does not seem to me to be unreasonable. I would tinhk almost anyone who owns these cars now knows that.

I suspect that the tone of the email you sent, wanting it in writing to avoid misunderstandings later, may have been a killer.

If you're still interested in the car, call him back, explain that you are new to the Ferrari community, but not new to buying cars, and were simply using the method that has worked for you in the past when buying Fieros and Corvairs. When the guy gets over having a good laugh, I suspect there might be a deal to be made.

There are all kinds of sellers, just like there are all kinds of buyers, but there are not all kinds of 330's out on the market. If the car looked good initially, then follow up with a lighter tone and see if you can't find some common ground. It would be a shame to miss out on a good car simply because you started out on the wrong foot.

DM

 

I think this is very relevant to anyone trying to buy a car of which they have no experience. There is nothing better than looking at everything available, within reason, to get the best understanding of what you are looking at. I have been doing this professionally for 24 years and the amount of times I might have been better off going, and making a relationship with the seller face to face rather than someone else getting the cheap car when the guy gets bored.

My favourite flippant remark is "if there's no smoke, there's no oil in it," so I understand the sentiment of the seller.

Make the effort and go. There will be wasted trips but it should be all part of the adventure.

All the best.

Mark Shannon

www.markshannon.net

 

Just watch out for any seller that strings you along for 6 months saying "his wife" doesn't want to sell, etc.

 

From my perspective, having to answer the proverbial "20 questions" from a "unqualified"* prospect is offputting, and if I had the choice among several potential buyers, that would be the lowest on my list, for several reasons, having nothing to do with hiding anything. First, there is the time it takes to respond, particularly if I have no idea whether you are a real buyer or a tire kicker. Second, and I think others may bear this out, any desirable collectible type car may have many potential buyers and prospects and given the choice among those who say, let's reach a price, and then, subject to PPI, deposit to secure with short written agreement, vs. guy with the 20 questions, I am going to spend my time talking to the guy ready to cut the check. In fact, when I sold my last exotic, I didn't even take a deposit to hold it, the buyer presented himself as a no-bs guy, said I am prepared to pay X, subject to a PPI and within a day, I said let's work together. At that point, I provided him with detailed descriptions of the car and what was right and wrong with it (every car has issues, it is just a question of degree and cost and difficulty in rectifying); eventually supplied him with copies of all service invoices since the time I owned the car; he had the car PPi'd, etc. I tried to truthfully answer every question he had, promptly, during the course of the transaction. As far as I know, he is happy with the car, and I tried my best to understate, rather than overstate, its condition.
I may not be the typical seller, but frankly, I am in the process of trying to buy something now, and very quickly got to the point where I reached a short written agreement in principle subject to a number of conditions, including a PPi, and wired the seller (who is an established dealer) a deposit, with the understanding that if the car does not satisfy the various conditions, I ain't buying.

*By "unqualified," I do not mean that you are unable to buy the car, but simply in salesperson-speak, you have not been established yet as a real buyer.

 

To amend my previous post...having a buyer ask for everything "in writing", email or otherwise, would definitely be unnerving. I'd tell him to meet me at the shop for a PPI and then draw his own conclusions.

I haven't been on the selling side of a Ferrari yet; last sports car I sold was a '69 Vette to a ready buyer down the street.

 

Hey wait a minute....


























IT was more like nine months.


And I'm still not allowed to mention your name when she's in the room. And, there's a picture of Kitty Fishsticks on the dart board in the rumpus room.

 

Definately, Never sell a car (or House) to a Lawyer. The guy who "wants things documented" is just getting Evidence to use against YOU! The tip about how much it gets used is probably the best indication. See, Sheehans "death by Storage".

 

I hear you.

When I was an architect, a prospective client asked me to "certify in writing" that a drainage problem under his house wouldn't occur again after modifications that he wanted me to design were implemented...what a stupid request. Needless to say, I walked.

He wasn't a lawyer, just a know-it-all type.