456 Top-end Rebuild Pics (valve guides)

nice red carpet
hope you can get the 456 soon enough for the good weather before winter comes.

 

just for reference... can you say how close the stamped marks were after dialling in the correct cam timing...

 

News Flash

Another 2000 456MGTA with Valve issues

Slight Smoke at startup led to continuous smoke within an couple hundred miles. Then SLOW DOWN light and CHECK ENGINE.

Car is at Ferrari of Houston now. Initial diagnosis is failure of the bronze valve guides allowing oil into engine. They even asked me to come by and check it out for my self. Seeing is believing. Now I am waiting for the BILL.

Any Thoughts?????

 

I'm curious (primarily because I'm considering buying a used 456) --- what does the factory power train warranty have to say about this? Any coverage options whatsoever? Is the car out of warranty due to mileage or age?

The idea of spending 75K on a car and maybe another 1-2K per year, on average, for maintenance is feasible...

But, spending 75K on a car with only 25,000 miles on it...and, then having to drop another 11-15K within the first year of ownership would really piss me off...

 

As I think this through, a compression leak down test may not uncover worn guides for some time. The engine designers work the geometry to minimize lateral valve to guide forces, so the valves will naturally "seat" and seal. I believe the guides would have to erode so badly that the valve would slide out of the seat - thus minimal warning before failure. Comments?

 

With 6mm valve stems and the very narrow seats used on a valve of that small a diameter very little wear is required for compression loss.

 

Yes, this is really the problem. It's very hard to detect worn valve guides early on many engines --- unless, you pull a camshaft, remove the tappets, and use an indicator to check lateral play on the valve stems, and this certainly could not be a practical part of any PPI. By the time there is enough stem-to-guide wear to cause valve seating problems (which will show up on compression and leakdown checks), it's usually too late. As Rifledriver points out, the geometry of these valves and seats is very sensitive to slop in the stem.

Even if Ferrari has said that this is not their responsibility, I'd be saving all my receipts and paperwork for this repair work --- have the shop document everything very thoroughly, complete with photos.

My guess is this problem will be showing up more as more 456's get some miles on them. And, unless Ferrari can prove that all these cars have been abused or serviced incorrectly, they have no leg to stand on.

It's unacceptable for this to be occurring on any engine with that low of mileage --- period. And, it is Ferrari's fault ---- either they have a design flaw or they are allowing discrepant components from their suppliers to get into their manufacturing system (and be accepted). It doesn't matter if the defective parts came from a supplier, Ferrari owns the design and the QA management of their supply base. If they (Ferrari) assert that a supplier gave false / misleading info so that parts were believed to be okay, and they wish to collect damages from a supplier after they (Ferrari ) pay out to their customers, that's their business.

If it were my car, I'd wait until after enough of these failures are documented, then I'd find a good Product Liability attorney to make Ferrari cough up a settlement. No warranty allows any manufacturer --- not even Ferrari --- to avoid responsibility from something this drastic.

 

How is wontonly burning motor oil NOT an emissions issue?

 

Indeed...seems as though a clever / aggressive lawyer might be able to make a loophole out of this...

Precedent has already been set with the 2-valve, injected 308's and the 355's (exhaust manifolds).

 

I don't know US law at all... but I would imagine it IS an emissions issue...

but it's the warranty thats under scruitny...

liability is the issue, not the emmision problem.

Cars wear out, it's what they do.

 

If someone wants to pursue this, it wouldn't hurt to give the EPA a call --- I'm sure they can say whether or not it should be treated as an emissions compliance failure.

Funny, but if this was happening on late model Ford's, the factory would probably rush to be proactive --- doing a recall, offering reimbursement, etc. --- just to protect their image and market place position. But, since Ferrari has no real competition, I imagine they don't feel the need to be too forthcoming.

 

DIABLO456 ---

Thanks for the offer to go have a direct look at your car. Frankly, I'm afraid that if I did, it would scare me too much, and I wouldn't be able to bring myself to buy a 456!!! LOL

Actually, I moved recently and am no longer residing in the Denver / Boulder area...

Incidentally, don't forget about Dave Helms at Scuderia Rampante in Boulder should you ever feel you want a change / second opinion from FoD.

Nothing against FoD, just an enthusiastic recommendation for Dave!!!

 

out of curiousity, what are those 2 gauges used for??

 

Cam timing.

 

Diablo 456,
glad to see some progress with your car, but what is taking them so long?

 

on the emissions issue, burning oil does not produce the gases checked for by EPA standards one of which, C02 is tastless colorless and odorless, Diesel engines do not make the same gases that gasoline engines so the EPA check on Diesels is just how thick the smoke is, Intell the Diesel/Ferrari engine fails to the point of poor combustion that the computer can not correct for it will get a clean bill of health by EPA standards even while belching lots visable smoke.

 

Oil smoke most certainly produces HC, which along with CO is one of the top 2 gasses tested for. A car burning much oil will fail. Of the other gasses, O2, and CO2, will be negatively impacted by the high levels of HC.

 

They are not pressure gauges for hoses, but I believe they are dial indicators to help determine phasing of the engine by indicating piston position.

On the other hand, I could be wrong...

 

See post 18.

 

What about damage to the cats after having all this oil passed through them? Wouldn't they also need to be replaced?