The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

It was IMHO, too Pete ! Well - all bar one little technicality.
Thanks to Jeff (Miltonian) for his additional research and posting those photos from R&T (I personally don't have that particular article - whereas I have been very actively collecting magazine articles on P4's, for the last few years, I do tend to 'pass' on the P3 ones). Got all the R&T P4 articles, though .....

But Gentlemen ....
As far as I was concerned, the arguement was all but over ('bar the shouting').
I hate to say this, but please go back and read the last paragraphs in my post #78 and (repeated in) post #82.
I'll re-paste it ONCE AGAIN, this time 'emboldening' the relevant sentence.

Now - About that (F1) engine .....

 

So the silence continues. Well then, I'll ask another question. Just for the sake of illustration, how many photographs of 0846 exist AFTER the LeMans fire? With all the hundreds of photographers clicking pictures at the LeMans race, do we have anything more than one grainy photo of the car sitting forlorn on the track AFTER its LeMans debacle? People have argued whether or not the doors were burned or not, etc, etc. A couple of decent photos of the car after the fire should settle those discussions.

 

Erich.
Call me paranoid if you like, but the last time my home PC was 'taken out', on May 21st (at a critical time when I particularly needed to reply to some FerrariChat postings), it took me nearly a week to restore (from back-ups). And by 'virus', I am not talking about simple 'Adware' / 'Spyware' stuff either !

 

too many porn sites

 

I've tried to keep from posting but Horsefly this has already been posted many times. It is a very clear photo showing the car stopped directly after the fire. Follow this link A tale of #0846 at Le Mans

And as for the answer to what happened to 0846 afterwards ...

Also from the same first thread:

All out there for those that want to read it ... others just like to sit with their hands over their eyes and repeat 'Impossible ... can't be true, has to be a conspiracy theory because I'm an American ...'

Regarding the conversion of the body from coupe to spider, etc. Horsefly. I believe Ferrari (and Piper, P4Replica ...) did this constantly to suit their requirements and I guess their drivers preference. They were apparantly easy to change over ... and again remember we are talking race cars here not production cars. Changes are constant.

I also love the comment (somewhere) that Macca made about a Ferrari chassis number been velcroed on ... have you guys ever wondered why their race cars chassis numbers are just simple little plates tacked on. They could have stamped the actual chassis ... but hell no that would make it too damn hard to change. I bet too that #0856 and #0844 have at some stage of their life had their chassis tag changed by the factory to get around tax or customs duty ... it would be extremely un-Ferrari like not to have done that, especially at that time when they were struggling financially.

So Horsefly, stop bleating and look for the pictures and then start a positive post like: I have been looking at the aftermath photo of #0846 and have noticed ..... Otherwise you really should become a politician where you can keep saying a whole lot of nothing and actually get paid for it

Pete

 

This is about as close as I get to porn sites: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=67321316#post67321316
One particulary 'interesting' URL link in that page, though (in post #934, which I'm not going to repeat) .....
And what do the moderators do about that ? Nada !

 

Hello Horsefly,
Actually the Corvette guys do refer to certain cars by there number. The Grand Sport race cars. They are constantly referred to as 001, 002, 003, 004 and 005. As I'm sure you are aware, some if not all had engine swaps as well as 2 being changed from coupes to roadsters. Just like the Ferrari's. And the GS's are highly regarded as all are still in existance an also restored. And now a rumor has started to a 006 being made but just like these threads, it is surrounded by many questions.

I do not beleive the "historians" are ignoring it the problems surrounding the alleged 0846. Besides I feel the posters of these boards are just as much as historians as anybody out there. Skett is very knowledgable whether some want to acknowledge that or not. So are many other posters including those who feel 0846 is real. The best info available on Ferraris is right here. If it wasn't an important issue we wouldn't have the half-a-dozen threads about this very subject.

I really do not see a double standard and I'm not a Ferrari sheep, but I do understand the point you are trying to make. However I can very clearly see the other side of the coin as well.

The thing I think we can all agree on is that this debate will never end even when and if a decision is ever made.

Ed

 

Horsefly,
The silence is because we're all on different timezones, not because we don't have any reply to make...........so see you tomorrow.

P4Replica,
With my eye for historical accuracy (!!!) I've read all the posts in all the relevant threads, and I'd done a few searches even before lists of links were posted, to make sure I hadn't missed anything. When Jim bought and started restoring and posting about his car, I guess he didn't know as much about the 'P'-cars as he does now - it took me a long time to get it straight and I'm still open to new information.
I get full-on virus-infected randomly-directed e-mails all the time, as does everyone I know, quite apart from the trackers, so my antivirus now strips every attachment as a matter of course.............it's not just you.

And in the interests of historical accuracy, it was a Lotus 72 F1 car from about 1973, not a Ferrari, that had a velcroed s/n plate in the cockpit. I don't know if Ferrari did something similar, but carnets were a perputual source of difficulty to all race teams.

But to return to the subject: my view from the present information presented on this forum plus my research (eg pictures I can't scan) is that Jim Glickenhaus' engine IS a 1967 P4, not an F1 with a monumental amount of faked-up ancillaries; his gearbox IS a 1966 330P3 as fitted at the press launch and with the distinct possibility that it was raced in 1966; and he has posted that his chassis has scars, repairs and alterations which I believe make it likely to have had a frontline racing history rather than being a Piper 1970s newbuild.......so I currently think that, within the parameters of provenance of historic racecars it's probably genuinely 0846.

Paul M

 

Holy ****! A final pronouncement!

Are you SURE you want to stretch out there to a definative statement like that!!


Roll the credits! Music swells ........ popcorn's empty ... and max is mad!


you guys are too much, man. Really........

 

...and piper outsmarted....himself! lol

 

Sorry to jump threads again but I believe the links thread is the wrong place for the last few posts on there.

posted by YKW

See the poll thread, where I've replied, again, about old threads.

I'm still waiting for conclusive proof that the 1966 P3s didn't use the press launch gearbox in the 1966 races - and you haven't commented on my quotes from magazines of the time.

What the photos and reports lead me to believe are:
Jim's engine is a 1967 Ferrari P4.
Jim's gearbox is a 1966 Ferrari P3, either 593 or 593A, whichever ISN’T the F1 box.

If not, why not? And IMHO it's not "relatively easy" and "Hey Presto" let alone likely that "someone" would have expended a huge effort faking intakes and distributors - Ferrari F1 engines are valuable in their own right - and anyway see post #30 here (and post #32 which gives an interesting slant to a certain controversial e-mail!):

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7370&page=2&pp=20

in which Jim said Piper attested it's a P4 engine

I've accepted corrections to what I believed at the start of this saga (particularly about Noble P4 replicas) and I've learned a lot - but I'll wait for the official line and if the real experts say differently to what I have come to think, that's fine, because if there is a mantra they write it as far as I'm concerned.

As Dixon of Dock Green used to say: Goodnight, All.

Paul M

 

In courts of law they often use the phrase: "Res ipsa loquitur" "It speaks for itself"
Post's 30 & 32 as Paul M has pointed out speak for themselves and when all is published 0846 will as well.
Post 30
Max
You have asked the right question. What's original has different meaning to different people. In addition with regard to race cars it's even more difficult. There are very few cars such as my MK-IV J6 that raced once and 36 years later remains rather original. Even then there are questions. When I bought J6 it was painted as the LeMans winner and the "experts" had written in several books the J6 was the Gurney/Foyt LeMans winner. After extensive research I discovered that J6 was not the winner but was the 4th place Donohue/McLaren car and I restored J6 back to it's proper colors. The latest editions of several books reflect my research and correctly note J5 as the winner and my car J6 as the Donohue/McLaren car.
There are indeed "original" cars that have been built up from a "wing nut" Once two D Jags bearing the same chassis number showed up at the same race.
As I've said MANY times my P4 will never be a "No Stories Car." Paul's view that somehow there's 10 million dollars at stake is not correct. Having put all of this on a public forum for years, shown all to this to Ferrari S.p.A and other's, the idea that somehow I could or would try to sell my car as an unmolested, no stories 0846 is absurd. The idea that someone would pay an extra 10 million dollars because I think something is true is equally absurd.

In addition once again my P4 is not nor will be for sale and any statements that I'm doing this for monetary gain are untrue, defamatory, and actionable.
Even though all of this has been laid out for years; in partial summation, once again:
I believe David's written warrants and representations are true. That the engine, transmission, and various body and suspension parts were acquired from Enzo Ferrari in the early 70's and are original 1967 P4.
I also believe Tom Meade's statement as related to Patrick Faucompre that " he personally threw out the chassis-tube of 0846 in a Modena junkyard, because nobody was interested by such parts, and traded or sold to David in 1971 a complete P4 body."
I also believe that Pinin Farina did not "Find the chassis remains of 0846 in their basement"and use them to build P5.
I Believe Mark Ketcham who wrote:
"I spoke with Marcel Massini this morning. (He was the fellow who saw 0846 in Switzerland in 1977. He repeated that there was definitely and entire chassis stamped 08460"
I Believe Marcel Massini who wrote:
"Yes, I did see- as stated before-the customs CARNET, which is a normal customs document (import a car under a bond, without paying taxes, for easy import and re-export).
NO, I was unable to make any copies, since I was in the Sbarro garage, a workman's place without any administrative machines. As I said before, CERVAN Corporation (A David Piper owned company) was the name of the company that brought it into Switzerland. I wrote that name down back then, simply because I found it an unusual name and I intended to find out more about that company (which I never did, unfortunately). When? In 1977, as said before"
Mark added:
"He does not know 100% who exported the car from CH, but it was sold to Michael Vernon in GB, who Marcel inspected the car for."
I know that for quite some time, after receiving the details and photo's of my car including chassis number which is asked and required by them and answered by me as 0846 Ferrari placed 330 P4 1966 in "Your Garage" on a web site bearing: "Copyright c Ferrari S.p.A."
I also know that pictures of my restoration including pictures of the uprights Ferrari cast for me are posted in the "Owners Forum" in another section of that same web site.
I believe that David commissioned three P4 chassis from the original P4 chassis builder. One of those chassis wound up in the car I bought.
I believe that pieces of the remains of 0846 wound up in the chassis I bought and this belief is based on forensic examination that occured after I bought this car.
I also know that I was unaware of this at the time I bought my car and David did not represent that it did.
I also think if you read, and look at the photos in "inside Ferrari" by Michael Dregni you will see how old race cars were treated, sold off, and junked during the late 60ies and early 70ies.
How correct will my car be?
Very, very, correct.
How original?
As I've said before when I'm finished all of this will be published in an appropriate place and everyone will decide that question for themselves.
This is the last time, until I publish that I'm going to comment as all of this has been discussed for years and we're continuing to plow the same ground.

 

Originally Posted by macca
Sorry to jump threads again but I believe the links thread is the wrong place for the last few posts on there.

posted by YKW




See the poll thread, where I've replied, again, about old threads.

I'm still waiting for conclusive proof that the 1966 P3s didn't use the press launch gearbox in the 1966 races - and you haven't commented on my quotes from magazines of the time.

What the photos and reports lead me to believe are:
Jim's engine is a 1967 Ferrari P4.
Jim's gearbox is a 1966 Ferrari P3, either 593 or 593A, whichever ISN’T the F1 box.

If not, why not? And IMHO it's not "relatively easy" and "Hey Presto" let alone likely that "someone" would have expended a huge effort faking intakes and distributors - Ferrari F1 engines are valuable in their own right - and anyway see post #30 here (and post #32 which gives an interesting slant to a certain controversial e-mail!):

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showth...70&page=2&pp=20

in which Jim said Piper attested it's a P4 engine

I've accepted corrections to what I believed at the start of this saga (particularly about Noble P4 replicas) and I've learned a lot - but I'll wait for the official line and if the real experts say differently to what I have come to think, that's fine, because if there is a mantra they write it as far as I'm concerned.

As Dixon of Dock Green used to say: Goodnight, All.

Paul M


In courts of law they often use the phrase: "Res ipsa loquitur" "It speaks for itself"
Post's 30 & 32 as Paul M has pointed out speak for themselves and when all is published 0846 will as well.
Post 30
Max
You have asked the right question. What's original has different meaning to different people. In addition with regard to race cars it's even more difficult. There are very few cars such as my MK-IV J6 that raced once and 36 years later remains rather original. Even then there are questions. When I bought J6 it was painted as the LeMans winner and the "experts" had written in several books the J6 was the Gurney/Foyt LeMans winner. After extensive research I discovered that J6 was not the winner but was the 4th place Donohue/McLaren car and I restored J6 back to it's proper colors. The latest editions of several books reflect my research and correctly note J5 as the winner and my car J6 as the Donohue/McLaren car.
There are indeed "original" cars that have been built up from a "wing nut" Once two D Jags bearing the same chassis number showed up at the same race.
As I've said MANY times my P4 will never be a "No Stories Car." Paul's view that somehow there's 10 million dollars at stake is not correct. Having put all of this on a public forum for years, shown all to this to Ferrari S.p.A and other's, the idea that somehow I could or would try to sell my car as an unmolested, no stories 0846 is absurd. The idea that someone would pay an extra 10 million dollars because I think something is true is equally absurd.

In addition once again my P4 is not nor will be for sale and any statements that I'm doing this for monetary gain are untrue, defamatory, and actionable.
Even though all of this has been laid out for years; in partial summation, once again:
I believe David's written warrants and representations are true. That the engine, transmission, and various body and suspension parts were acquired from Enzo Ferrari in the early 70's and are original 1967 P4.
I also believe Tom Meade's statement as related to Patrick Faucompre that " he personally threw out the chassis-tube of 0846 in a Modena junkyard, because nobody was interested by such parts, and traded or sold to David in 1971 a complete P4 body."
I also believe that Pinin Farina did not "Find the chassis remains of 0846 in their basement"and use them to build P5.
I Believe Mark Ketcham who wrote:
"I spoke with Marcel Massini this morning. (He was the fellow who saw 0846 in Switzerland in 1977. He repeated that there was definitely and entire chassis stamped 08460"
I Believe Marcel Massini who wrote:
"Yes, I did see- as stated before-the customs CARNET, which is a normal customs document (import a car under a bond, without paying taxes, for easy import and re-export).
NO, I was unable to make any copies, since I was in the Sbarro garage, a workman's place without any administrative machines. As I said before, CERVAN Corporation (A David Piper owned company) was the name of the company that brought it into Switzerland. I wrote that name down back then, simply because I found it an unusual name and I intended to find out more about that company (which I never did, unfortunately). When? In 1977, as said before"
Mark added:
"He does not know 100% who exported the car from CH, but it was sold to Michael Vernon in GB, who Marcel inspected the car for."
I know that for quite some time, after receiving the details and photo's of my car including chassis number which is asked and required by them and answered by me as 0846 Ferrari placed 330 P4 1966 in "Your Garage" on a web site bearing: "Copyright c Ferrari S.p.A."
I also know that pictures of my restoration including pictures of the uprights Ferrari cast for me are posted in the "Owners Forum" in another section of that same web site.
I believe that David commissioned three P4 chassis from the original P4 chassis builder. One of those chassis wound up in the car I bought.
I believe that pieces of the remains of 0846 wound up in the chassis I bought and this belief is based on forensic examination that occured after I bought this car.
I also know that I was unaware of this at the time I bought my car and David did not represent that it did.
I also think if you read, and look at the photos in "inside Ferrari" by Michael Dregni you will see how old race cars were treated, sold off, and junked during the late 60ies and early 70ies.
How correct will my car be?
Very, very, correct.
How original?
As I've said before when I'm finished all of this will be published in an appropriate place and everyone will decide that question for themselves.
This is the last time, until I publish that I'm going to comment as all of this has been discussed for years and we're continuing to plow the same ground.

Post 32
#32 02-17-2004, 03:09 AM
P4Racer
Karting
Not Subscribed Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: UK
Full Name: max wakefield
Posts: 63

P4 or not P4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JG, I think you have done wonderfully well with your car.

If David has given assurances that this car is correct then it is correct. It may help everyone to see the sworn legal documents that David signed. If you could post the legal representations then we can all see that your car has the magnificent honour of being the Pheonix that has risen from the ashes.

I think it may be interesting to all those who are interested to see:

The import papers,
The legal representations; and
any other scrap of Piper paper that prooves the history of the parts.

David and Liz Piper have been the strongest influence in my own racing programme. They have done everything they can to promote me to the right people and thus far this has been a great success. As a team they are the most savvy operators I have ever known. Indeed I have raced as part of Piper Auto Racing and spend three weeks a year with them in South Africa.

Legal documents aside there are certain aspects that worry me, but I don't think this is the forum to air them. However if it were not a correct car, then David and his reputation as a leading light on all Ferrari "P" matters would be destroyed, and in Europe, at least, this sort of thing is seen as criminal. That being the case I am sure David would never be lead into anything other than representing the car as what it was.

So for Piper's sake alone can we just clear up, the area of what he legally told you that he sold you. Then we can all rest easy about this legends involvement about 0846 and carry on with the normal detective work. Which is much more fun.

Max

 

Jim

any chance of some more pictures of the rebuild?

 

Will Shoot some tonight.

 

From PSK:
"I've tried to keep from posting but Horsefly this has already been posted many times. It is a very clear photo showing the car stopped directly after the fire. Follow this link...."

Yadda, yadda, etc. ONE photograph from French television that was probably shot on 16mm film, probably duplicated several times for French television, then transfered to British 625 line standard, then scan converted to 525 line American NTSC standard, then dubbed who knows how many times and then frame grabbed for that link photo. Come on guys, let's dig for a DECENT photograph of the car after the LeMans race, not some washed out multi-generation grainy shot from 100 feet away. As I said, but PSK didn't understand, there were probably how many photographers at LeMans in 1967, a hundred, a thousand??? And we have ONE lousy photograph of 0846 that we are baseing all of the documentation on? Give me a break.

From PSK's quoting of Napolis:

"David Piper aquired the remains and many P4 spares from Enzo Ferrari and built this car which he and others including John Surtees raced for many years. I acquired the car from David when I met him at the Goodwood festival of Speed in 2000. "

So once again PSK, you're telling us that Piper KNEW the car was 0846, a potentially multi-million dollar collector car, and he simply sold it with a pile of parts to James for a fraction of its potential value? Sorry, I don't buy the story.


From PSK:
"I bet too that #0856 and #0844 have at some stage of their life had their chassis tag changed by the factory to get around tax or customs duty ... it would be extremely un-Ferrari like not to have done that, especially at that time when they were struggling financially."

So you just admitted that there is no credible way to GUARANTEE that Jame's car IS ACTUALLY 0846 because you say that serial number tags were changed all the time. Yet even with no TRUELY CREDIBLE WAY TO GUARANTEE that James car IS IN FACT 0846, you expect all of us to examine ONE grainy photo of the car at LeMans and LEAP TO THE GREAT CONCLUSION that the car is THE ONE AND ONLY ORIGINAL??? Once again, that's not scientific thinking. For the second time, give me a break.

From PSK:
"So Horsefly, stop bleating and look for the pictures and then start a positive post like: Pete"

Yadda, yadda, yadda, etc. You said look for the "pictures". But as we have seen, there is only ONE picture of the car from LeMans that basically tells us nothing concerning the authenticity of the car. Once again, totally unscientific thinking that proves the authenticity of nothing.

More from PSK:
"And in the interests of historical accuracy, it was a Lotus 72 F1 car from about 1973, not a Ferrari, that had a velcroed s/n plate in the cockpit. I don't know if Ferrari did something similar, but carnets were a perputual source of difficulty to all race teams."

So now we are suddenly allowed LOTUS racer analogies, but Corvette racer analogies are forbidden. Once again, a fine example of the wonderful Ferrari enthusiast double standards.

 

!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

 

Horsefly: Is it just me or does it seem you don't read all the words posted before you.


Read Jim's post. at the time Piper had the chassis was reconstructed this was not a "potentially multimillion dollar collectable" It was just an old broken race car.

Have you ever seen a P4? A real one? A fake? A faithful reproduction? and after all really what business is it of yours anyway?

Now I have seen a real one (in more detail than most) A fake and a faithful reproduction. Jim has also been nice enough to keep me in the loop on some of the "Issues" because currently I am lucky enough to have access to the Real McCoy.
I have also seen in pretty close detail a faithful reproduction (Norwood) and a couple of really awful square tube jobs

Now for snobby double standards I read the post you are replying to and I didn't see what you saw... but I don't think anyone was trying to apply a double standard to Corvette provenance just if you think about it there are lots more of them out there. This issue is really not for you to get your panties in such a bunch. It is for Ferrari, Jim, and the other "Experts" who have earned that title to decide. Not for "Self Proclaimed" Experts to banter about.
Recently a friend of mine had a little Can Am Aluminum block Yenko Motor and a fully restored 67 SS Camaro. Well he put one into the other and posted it for sale as "Not A REAL YENKO but as a real yenko motor in a real camaro body... The swarm of "Self Appointed" Yenko Experts descended on him and some of the "Experts" were posting things on another board that went far beyond opinion to "I am Calling a Fraud and reporting you to ebay and yatta yatta yatta..."
Bunch of self important wankers with nothing better to do.
He was exceptionally careful not to say it was a real thing and got crucified anyway. Jim has also been saying what it is and what he has found.

Give the man some credit.
and read the entire post.

 

"Horsefly: Is it just me or does it seem you don't read all the words posted before you."

I read the posts. But apparently because I don't necessarily agree with them, that grates on some people's nerves.


"Read Jim's post. at the time Piper had the chassis was reconstructed this was not a "potentially multimillion dollar collectable" It was just an old broken race car."

Read Jim's post. He said he bought the car in 2000. That was only 4 years ago. If it had been 1974, things would be different. But as we know, it was only 4 years ago. IF that car WAS INDEED the remains of 0846, it was hardly "an old broken race car" as you say.

"Have you ever seen a P4? A real one? A fake? A faithful reproduction? and after all really what business is it of yours anyway?"

Probably no more of MY business to question the authenticity of the car any more that it is any of YOUR business to add verification to it's authenticity. This is Ferrarichat where such discussion is the norm.

" Jim has also been nice enough to keep me in the loop on some of the "Issues""

I have also been in the LOOP so to speak from across the pond concerning some of the opposing opinions concerning the car.

"Now for snobby double standards I read the post you are replying to and I didn't see what you saw... but I don't think anyone was trying to apply a double standard to Corvette provenance just if you think about it there are lots more of them out there. This issue is really not for you to get your panties in such a bunch. It is for Ferrari, Jim, and the other "Experts" who have earned that title to decide. Not for "Self Proclaimed" Experts to banter about."

So you're saying the we, the members of Ferrarichat, are just supposed to politely nod our heads and accept everything that we are told as being the undisputed gospel truth concerning the authenticity of any particular car?

"bunch of self important wankers with nothing better to do.
He was exceptionally careful not to say it was a real thing and got crucified anyway. Jim has also been saying what it is and what he has found."

So if one politely nods and accepts everything being said as the "gospel truth" then that person is a fine enthusiast, but if they question what is being discussed, they are a "bunch of self important wankers with nothing better to do". My oh my, another double standard. Somebody turn off that double standard faucet before we flood the basement!

"Give the man some credit."

I give Jim excellent credit for building and documenting a fantastic car. But from what I've read, I personally do not consider the car to be the original and authentic P4 Ferrari serial number 0846. That is MY PERSONAL OPINION which I am allowed to have. And it is also the opinion of many others who communicate to me OFF the board.

 

Jim, don't feed the trolls. It is like pissing into the wind. You just get wet.

 

Wise words Dale

 

"Ronnie the popular said it was a Communist plot"- from "It Came Out of the Sky" by Creedance Clearwater Revival

 

Hello Horsefly,
I answered a question about Corvettes in another thread but you didn't reply to it, so I'll post it here also.

You stated that "Nobody" (your wording) refers to Corvettes by serial number only, but in fact they do. When it comes to the Grand Sport race cars they are in fact referred to as 001, 002, 003, 004 and 005. They also have had engines swapped and 2 were converted to roadsters that were originally coupes. And they are accepted as the real deal. Even the converted roadsters. Why is that accepted?

So basically, the double standard is out the window with regard to chassis numbers and original body panels. We (Corvette people) accept them as the real GS cars but some are not very original at all. No more so than the race Ferraris, simply because the GS's are race cars also.

So you see, the Corvette guys do it also when it fits.

All the Ferrari guys are certainly not looking the other way when it comes to the alledged 0846. If they did, we would not be reading through all the multiple threads about this very subject.

Other than the Bikini thread, I believe this is the most popular thread on F-Chat.

I think this entire subject has taken on a life of its own.

Ed

 

Horsefly,

First or all Horsefly you need a quote leason , please try:

[qu*ote]Insert quoted text here[/qu*ote]

Note: I have inserted the '*' to allow you to see the formatting text ...

Now lets discuss your comment:

Please read Jim's post #374 in this thread and to make it easy for you, I quote Jim again (hope you do not mind Jim ):

Thus Jim's P4 Ferrari will never be an original (ie. as it left the Ferrari factory in 1966) and authentic no stories P4 Ferrari serial number 0846, as Jim himself has said over and over and over again until I am sure he went and kicked his cat.

RACE CARS ARE NOT LIKE ROAD CARS and thus it is 100% impossible to restore a race car 100% like it left the factory. Now Jim's GT40 J6 is close to an exception because it was only raced once ... but even then it has had the following changes since then:
- Rear engine cover repaired or replaced, as it was damaged.
- Repainted to look like the race winner.
- Repainted again to be as it raced.
- Oil and water has been changed .

Thus ALL race cars that were actually used have stories. Jim's P4 will have lots more stories than 0856 and 0844 will but that does not mean it is not the car that was once 0846, ie. if you follow the components from its last race for the Ferrari works at Le Mans to Piper as a broken race car, then converted/rebuilt/whatever Piper wanted to do with the components until he then sold it Jim. Again continuous history is MORE important IMO than simple chassis numbers.

Why do I keep saying that?

Because lets say Ferrari built a new race car. It was crashed after it second race. The chassis was destroyed so Ferrari made a new one and repaired the car. This car then went on as the 'same' car and continued its racing career.

That is one car with the correct and interesting history ... now if somebody finds the remains of the original chassis and decides to build a replica. Lets discuss that car worth:

- Hmmm, entered 2 races for Ferrari, damaged in the second.
- Sat in a scrap metal yard for X number of years.
- Found and fixed requiring massive amount of new metal.

Er, which car would you rather have?. The one that has the glorious history and continued the racing career of the car, or the pieces of metal that were found stuffed in the scrap metal yard?. Obviously the car that has the racing history because that is why that car is so interesting and collectible.

Originality means fnck all in the race car collecting world, except if you can find a car that is still the same as its last great win ... but that is unlikely. Usually they get sold off and continue racing and get modified, etc.

Again the nutty English collector that ended up in prison (hopefully getting 'the love' from his cell mate) for destroying some classics in a fraud attempt. Anyway he owned a perfectly restored matching numbers (I believe) 60's Tessarossa ... he swapped it for a crashed and badly needing a restoration identical model Ferrari because that crashed car was traced back to having won Le Mans. How much of that car won Le Mans?, good question but who cares, the continuous history of that car could be wound back to showing that 'same' car won Le Mans, and thus historically interesting.

Anyway I respect your opinion, and I actually agree . The difference is that I believe if you trace back the continuous history of Jim's car you will end up at Le Mans in 1966 wondering why some Italian idiot could not provide a hammer that did not loose it's head

Pete

 

Car that WAS ONCE 0846? Did I read that correctly? Car that WAS ONCE 0846? Are you finally saying that the car is NOT NOW 0846?

Hasn't that been my opinion all along?

In my book, that makes it a replica. Grandpa's ax once again.