Ongoing saga with the F1 power unit. REVERSE ONLY. Nothing else. Expertise needed :)

mowater · Jan 3, 2012

rustybits said: ↑

Well the PIS is adjustable using the skilltester tool you have pictured. It's accesed by entering the diagnosis page from the menu. The new closed clutch position is basically a figure you dump into the ecu to tell it the starting thickness of the clutch so it can calculate the wear rate. Not setting this correctly causes a false PIS reading to be generated.
Has the plug location been verified on the unit as ok yet?
Also, definately tell them to pull the wire off the boot catch-plenty people been caught out by that one before!!
To be honest anyone with an SD3 should also have what is known as "porting software" which effectively turns it into an SD1, this software was the replacement for it, so it might be worth speaking to your dealer again and getting them to check if your current garage cannot help....
Click to expand...

Thanks!! Really appreciate all this man.
1. Will check the PIS.
2. Will reset closed clutch position so that the ecu 'understands' it's new.
3. Plug location you mean of the clutch sensor? No the clutch has not been disassembled at this shop. It was last assembled at the Ferrari AD (exclusive in Kuwait), and I drove the car since then on the borrowed solenoids. Since then, I have returned all my original solenoids. This is where I am suspecting the wiring has been messed up.
4. Hmmm sorry which wire in the boot latch?
5. Regarding the SD3, yes I am pretty sure it can work on a 355 but I have no idea why the guy with the SD3 (indy shop) is refusing to admit the 355's F1. Probably hates to work on them and they are too much trouble compared to the 360 and over?

Subarubrat · Jan 3, 2012

The idea of that skill tester interested me so I looked it up, $16,000 for that thing!

What kills me is that I am certain an interface could be made for well under $100 in hardware and run the software on a generic netbook. This is mid 90's technology were dealing with, unfortunately it isn't in my area of expertise.

rustybits · Jan 3, 2012

Subarubrat said: ↑

The idea of that skill tester interested me so I looked it up, $16,000 for that thing!

What kills me is that I am certain an interface could be made for well under $100 in hardware and run the software on a generic netbook. This is mid 90's technology were dealing with, unfortunately it isn't in my area of expertise.
Click to expand...

Nope. the Marelli f1 system has quite specific software that is needed to diagnose/repair/adjust the system. I know, i had to fork out 25,000 euros for an SD3 to repair these things. I also have the skilltester. It mostly spends its days sitting on a shelf collecting dust; they aren't very good........

Subarubrat · Jan 3, 2012

"the Marelli f1 system has quite specific software that is needed to diagnose/repair/adjust the system"

Of course, what I was suggesting is that an interface could be built allowing use of a regular laptop running a program written to perform those functions. There are tons of examples of add-on functionality if you get a person with the right software skills interested. For example, my neighbor has a Buick Grand National that has a daughter board in the ECU that interfaces it to USB and then an app runs on the laptop giving diags and logging not possible when the car was made in 1987. I have an interface on my Nintendo Wii (which is infinitely more powerful and complicated than the F1 TCU) that emulates the DVD drive and allows USB devices to store the DVD images. Heck I have a Commodore 64 with ethernet and SD card interfaces where the SD controller is more powerful than the C64. My point being were talking about 15~20 year old technology that could be emulated.

yelcab · Jan 3, 2012

that does it. I am never going to buy an F1 after reading this thread.

rustybits · Jan 3, 2012

you need specific software. You can't emulate it cheaply. Unless you are both a wizard at writing a whole bunch of code in MS DOS AND you know the intricate workings of how an f1 system works well enough to write diagnostic software you have no chance. The car-related stuff you mention is simple OBD software using a simple generic lead that you can purchase for a few dollars, very,very different. I and a few others have already looked deeply into producing a simple piece of software for diy use and it's both extremely expensive and extremely complicated. If it was that easy there would be tons of cheap aftermarket diagnostic tools on the market for Ferrari, as there is for pretty much every other make, don't you think?

mowater · Jan 3, 2012

yelcab said: ↑

that does it. I am never going to buy an F1 after reading this thread.
Click to expand...

trust me brother, this is all MY OWN doing i have trusted the wrong people based on a friend's advice AND as i have made clear there is NO ALTERNATIVE when it comes to 355, note: 355, F1s as far as shops are concerned. the dealer wants me to spend 22k on a new unit, and the only shop who can work on it is this car. there cannot be more than 10 355 f1s in the whole country that are running perfectly. if that.

rustybits, you are the star of this thread, thank you so much for all your contributions and please learn that i sincerely appreciate your time and putting up with my shallow questions. i will continue to ask questions and hope that your generousity and the other fellas' gets my car back to tiptop shape

you guys might not believe it but my car only reported back a need for engine mounts after a full inspection at the dealer. this is why i am sticking to this example

rustybits · Jan 3, 2012

No problem. If you really get stuck out there pm me i'd be happy to talk to the guy working on the car if it helps.

By the sounds of it i might have to move my workshop over there...sounds like there's money to be had!!

Subarubrat · Jan 3, 2012

"Unless you are both a wizard at writing a whole bunch of code"

A very good paraphrase of what I was saying, and I aint that guy, I struggle to get through perl scripts......

mowater · Jan 4, 2012

UPDATES:

1. Got a call to visit the shop, sat in the car and the car is shifting from 1st to 6th, and engages Reverse.

2. Bought F1 fluid, will carry out bleeding.

3. Skilltester is STILL reading 2.07 for PIS and the "---" are still appearing for Clutch Wear. Hmm?

4. The car is on a jack for this test. Does this change ANYTHING? I would guess not, but I don't want to get over excited just yet and find out that if the tires are on the ground then there can be something different. Wouldn't make sense, right?

5. Mech is getting "Reverse Switch" error on skilltester. This is why he wants to check all hosing and wiring to the actuator. I told him maybe it is an error that is from the ECU from the time when the car would not engage Reverse. But he says he will check this first, bleed the system, and then configure the clutch (kiss point + wear).

Any ideas, experiences, opinions and feedback welcome.
Here are some snaps of the Skilltester readings, if any of this makes sense, please share and advize.

Video:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjvCePQaD6c&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/ame]
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rustybits · Jan 4, 2012

That looks promising! Firstly he should delete that reverse switch error, check the wiring and look at the parameters page on the skilltester while going up and down the gears. He should be looking to make sure the clutch doesn't close OVER PIS which it may do looking at the new closed clutch position and low PIS. If it doesn't it needs a road test to bed the clutch in then recheck PIS and for any errors. Why is the PIS still so low? Can he not adjust it?
Also, that reverse switch error is common when the plastic parts of the lever break and the switch doesn't return to it's correct position after use: do you have to lift the reverse lever before moving it backwards, or can you just pull it straight back without lifting it? If it's broken hill engineering do a really good little repair kit so you don't have to replace the entire switch....If the reverse switch is faulty it can also stop other gears going in, so this may have been the cause of your problem in the first place..

mowater · Jan 4, 2012

thanks for the details bro!

he called me just now he took it for a road test and he says everything is well and working as it should

he mentioned doing the clutch stuff now on the skilltester and from what i understand he is referring to setting the pis and making the clutch wear appear

as for the reverse switch error, thanks for the jnfo! it makes sense now

if i may ask, the other day you mentioned that with such a low number for the pis then the car will not engage. but since it is, then the reading must be incorrect and is not the actual distance physically, right?
or could it be that it is in fact accurate and is still working

rustybits said: ↑

That looks promising! Firstly he should delete that reverse switch error, check the wiring and look at the parameters page on the skilltester while going up and down the gears. He should be looking to make sure the clutch doesn't close OVER PIS which it may do looking at the new closed clutch position and low PIS. If it doesn't it needs a road test to bed the clutch in then recheck PIS and for any errors. Why is the PIS still so low? Can he not adjust it?
Also, that reverse switch error is common when the plastic parts of the lever break and the switch doesn't return to it's correct position after use: do you have to lift the reverse lever before moving it backwards, or can you just pull it straight back without lifting it? If it's broken hill engineering do a really good little repair kit so you don't have to replace the entire switch....If the reverse switch is faulty it can also stop other gears going in, so this may have been the cause of your problem in the first place..
Click to expand...

mowater · Jan 4, 2012

sorry about the reverse
no it engages normally i do not struggle with the lever

rustybits · Jan 4, 2012

You may find when hot the car won't engege gears with pis that low, i'm suprised it drives!
Anyway, in case your mechanic doesn't know, PIS adjustment is as follows:

1, Make sure the car is COMPLETELY cold.
2, start the car and wait till all the warning lamps go out.
3. Switch the ignition off, wait until all lights are out.
4. repeat procedure four times.

PIS should now have moved. He should then carry out IO self calibration. This should only be done once PIS has been set. do this as follows:

1. Start car, all doors closed. wait until all warning lamps go out.
2. Engage first gear, don't touch the throttle pedal.
3. Hold foot on brake for 1 minute
4. put back into neutral.
5. leave car running and repeat steps 2-4 three further times.

Switch off engine then check PIS and for errors.

mowater · Jan 4, 2012

rusty thank you kind sir
i am really wishing this config goes smoothly and is supported by the readings after hooking it to the skilltester again.. it is too late for any dramatic blows right now and i need to get a break haha
and may i ask what IO stands for lol
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Extreme · Jan 4, 2012

There is hope then yet for the 355 F1

mowater · Jan 4, 2012

Extreme given all the drama i have been through i can tell you that 70% of the problems i faced are shop/mechanic related. there are just not enough 355 f1s over here to get them interested in the first place nor, more importantly, be knowledgeable about them

even the AD, who have assembled the clutch and thrust bearing in the end did not set the PIS/IO correctly it seems ah well, i live and learn

as for the 355 f1, the pump motor is a huge deal and the 360 pump with HE adapter CAN BE the solution BUT i would love and urge ricambi, HE, and everyone involved to come up with a DETAILED, dummy-proof instructions for the assembly and installation. not everyone is blessed to have reputable shops around, or even in the same country/continent as those shops!

as a 360 owner as well, i can say that the biggest issue with the 355 f1 is sourcing spare parts and not the f1 itself. there is no real alternative than getting a new power unit sometimes, even if for a single component like a certain EV responsible for either selection, engagement, or clutch release

that said, yes, the 355 f1 seems to have hope still
i wonder why still there has not been a whole adaptation of the 360/430 unit for the 355 altogether .. hmm

mowater · Jan 9, 2012

Gentlemen, the car is still shifting fine. No errors show up. The remaining matter is that of the clutch configuration.
Kindly shed some light as I wish to understand this, in plain English, and as a six year old.

Okay so attached are shots of the ST5 and its readings. Still no clutch wear percentage.

My questions are:
1. With those readings, and the car shifting fine, why should I not just take it back and enjoy it?!

2. What should the "ACTUAL CLUTCH VALUE" read? It is at the time of the photo 15.97 and if I remember correctly my mechanic set it to 16.4 and told me he has to do it step by step after letting the car run and get hotter. Waiting for it to cool down again. Repeat. What should it read, in the end?

3. PIS Distance is at 2.17
Now, if I perform the PIS Self Calibration as is described above in previous posts, on those current other readings, will it be done properly and set at 4.8 - 5.2?
Should I perform this while the "actual clutch value" is still at this number of 15-17?

4. Okay so I will be the newb who comes out and asks:
a. What does the "Clutch position as new" refer to? Now it is at 16.47
b. Why are there two and what does it mean for "Self calibrated closed C" readings? One at 19.38 and other at 1.01?
c. Self calibrated minimum? English please.

I guess what I am asking for here is a take on those pictures and what they tell me.
What do they mean, why should I be interested or should I be worried?
How is it that the car is shifting if the numbers are really supposed to be different, and why do I want to NOT take the car now?

Thanks in advance. I realize I may be over-asking but hopefully this is helpful to many members.
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mowater · Jan 10, 2012

Gentlemen, I received the car and it is very jerky and jumpy from a complete stop in 1st/2nd. Everything else seems to be fine. This is definitely the clutch configuration.

Regarding the PIS and IO self-calibration, can I perform them at home, after parking the car for 12-16 hours (it's winter here, temp between 10-15 Celsius so that's good)?
Or do I need the computer to "set" the PIS and "input" a value for it?

Kindly advize.

mowater · Jan 11, 2012

Update:

I tried the self-calibration of PIS and IO at home. No computers.
Took the car out, felt 70% improvement.
Came back, parked it for an hour or so. Car cooled down.

Started it again. It was P E R F E C T.
It has DEFINITELY been set perfectly by apparently what I have done.

Mind you, I did not check for any errors or any readings nor make any inputs - because I had no access to the computers.

Unfortunately, after 15 minutes of driving around mostly in 1st/2nd testing around; my father tried the car and from the first time it was bad. It is still bad - just like yesterday.

Hoping you guys would come back to this thread and save me lol.

mowater · Jan 12, 2012

Yesterday, I let the car cool down after my post above. Tried it again 5 hours later. Flawless, always moving it from 1st gear, smooth, excellent shifts. All is well.
Kept driving it and it was perfect.

Coming back to my neighbourhood, I came to a complete stop, engaged 2nd gear and started to roll. Instantly, I could feel the car got worst.
Put it back in 1st, and sure enough, the car is jumpy and jerky.

So I parked the car, let it cool down and tried it later after 30 mins, same problem. Not smooth. I figured perhaps it is related to moving the car from 2nd gear from a complete stop.

Thus, I let it be overnight, and I tested it today. Drove it around 65km. First 15km to the gym, in traffic, but not the worst traffic at all. It was "fine, daily, normal" traffic.

It was excellent. Went into the gym, had a nice 2hr workout, came back. Started the car, Reverse, nice smooth shifts. Put it in 1st, and yep, smooth shift.
I proceeded to drive it that way, taking it on highways, then back to some lights or bumps. All great.

HOWEVER, I reached a speed bump and the car from 1st (coolant temp was around 90 deg C) was NOT excellent.
It was NOT as bad as yesterday or the day before though. No where close.

Just like when you want to move a car from 1st gear over and over, and it feels jumpy. From there, all is well.

So to sum up:
1. Drove the car more than 4 times in flawless condition.
2. Problem seems to be triggered by engaging 2nd gear from a dead stop. Even if you go back to first gear to try and roll the car, it gets very bad again.
3. Today, two trips, the first was EXCELLENT and flawless. The second was excellent up until I did perhaps 50km and got to a bump, then stop, and tried rolling it (a bit uphill) and it was not so smooth. This persisted even in straight, flat roads until I parked the car. Still however, it is NOT as bad as yesterday or day before.

Any help or ideas are welcome.

Basically, is there a way to "self calibrate" rolling from 2nd gear? Hmm.
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JSBMD · Jan 12, 2012

Mowater, I am sorry your problem is not 100% solved, but am glad it is mostly solved. It still may be that some of the inconsistent shifting is related to the old 355 pump in the system. I know that attempting to fit the 360 pump was sort of a disaster, so that you went back to the original setup, pump included. This may be why you are having inconsistent shifting. This is definitely what I experienced as my pump was slowly dying. One day good, one day very jerky and with "creep" when stopped but in gear (car would start rolling as soon as I let off the brake even before I gave it gas). Heat definitely makes this behavior worse. The F1 system is capable of delivering smooth, fast shifts, but it needs consistent pressure to work at its optimum. Weak, failing pumps cannot handle heat or repeated demands (rapid shifting, sport mode, stop/start traffic) without having a fall-off in delivered pressure. You may not be able to reproduce faltering pressure in a test if the "stressful" conditions are not reproduced adequately.

I don't know how you should go about solving this issue, given your bad experience with shops trying to fit the 360 pump unsuccessfully in the past. Definitely, though, especially once you experience inconsistent shifting behavior in one of these cars, it erodes your confidence in taking the car anywhere. My trust of the car was getting shaky for sure when I went through this, so I can only imagine what you must be feeling after all you've been through with your car. I think it might be worth doing what you mentioned a while back: removing the whole system and having the newer pump adapted, then shipped back. That way, all you are relying on the local talent for is mounting and bleeding the system. Once you have the system working properly, though, these cars are wonderful!

Good luck,

John

mowater · Jan 13, 2012

John, thank you so much for the detailed post bro! It is greatly appreciated.
So far, I have done the PIS + I/O procedures twice. It has worked wonders for me.
If I may elaborate, I have not had the symptoms you have had my friend.

My problem with the car since getting it back was moving it from a complete stop. In 1st or 2nd. Otherwise, it has been more than wonderful.

The PIS/IO procedure has resolved everything so far.
I just need it to be consistent, and the only way to make sure of that is to keep on driving it. Which I am, making up for lost time!

As for upgrading to a 360 pump, yes definitely I have learned my lesson and although I am wishful that I will never have to do that; if I do, I am definitely going to ship it to the US to get it assembled with my unit and then leave the install + bleeding. I will do the PIS/IO myself since the local "talents" do not know how to.

JSBMD · Jan 13, 2012

It sounds like the situation is nearly solved. Very glad to hear that!

Your patience and perseverance have paid off.

mowater · Jan 14, 2012

Thanks John! Yes sir indeed. It has been since April 2011 and I honestly HONESTLY think that no one in Kuwait would have put up with what I did had they not been IN LOVE with the 355. I don't love it, I am in love with it!

At any rate, so far, still all good news! Soft, smooth rolls from dead stops in 1st gear.
Yet to try it from 2nd gear, but not in a haste to do that just now.

Will keep you guys updated.
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