"Mike- Ferrari tech bulletins do not work that way, hence the quote " all V8...regardless of model year" Ok, thanks - good to know. And, as you noted, since it clearly DOES say "independent of model year," I would now agree that they DID intend it to mean all v8 Ferraris - back to whenever. So I now agree that I was wrong and that 3 years is the factory requirement for my 328!
BELT INSPECTION AT 52,500 MILES Engines had changed to cam belts from chains, and belt replacement became a regular part of servicing. But through the 1990s, Ferrari never had an official policy mandating cam belt replacement. Indeed, the factory war- ranty book for the 355 recommended a cam belt inspec- tion at 52,500 miles. The reality is that cam belts virtually never break. And even if one loses a single tooth, because the cam sprockets are multi-toothed, the loss of a single or even several separate teeth on the same belt would not cause the cam timing to slip. In 2002, Ferrari instituted the certified pre-owned program. To be certified a Ferrari had to have cam belts replaced within two and a half years or less. While the 355/360/456 and 550 did not have cam belt problems, they did have tensioner problems, and the early 360 had cam variator problems. Ferrari found the most efficient way to have the tensioners and variators checked was to insist on a mandatory three-year belt replacement. The good news was that the 360, 456, 550, and 575 could be serviced with the engine in, and so costs were not as crippling. NOT YOUR DAUGHTERS TOYOTA While your daughters Toyota may go 100,000 miles on a cam belt, a Toyota doesnt put out over 400 hp, doesnt rev to 7,500 rpm, and doesnt have radical cam timing and stiff valve springs. Under these circumstances, cam belts can wear and stretch, not to mention the onset of leaking seals and worn-out tensioners. So did Ferrari build cars with cam belts from 1974 to 2002some 28 yearsand then suddenly decide belts need to be replaced every three years? Fellow SCM writer Steve Ahlgrim of T. Rutlands, the Atlanta Ferrari experts, interviewed a Gates belt engineer who said Gates recommended changing belts every nine years. Todays obsessive-compulsive mandate that cam belts need to be replaced on the twelfth month of the fifth year is simply silly. For example we bought and sold 1983 512 BB S/N 35411 in November, with 30,000 miles and it had never had cam belts changed. When the cam belts were finally replaced after 25 years and 30,000 miles, they showed no unusual wear or deterioration. Heres the bottom line on belt replacement. Youve got the following choices. 1. Every nine years, as Gates recommends. 2. Every 52,500 miles, as Ferrari used to recommend for the 355 and earlier cars. 3. Every five years, as is the common recommendation today. 4. Every three years, as Ferrari has now decided needs to be done for a car to be certified. 5. Every three months, if you want to keep your mechanic busy. Personally, I get by with an annual visual inspection of the cam belt and tensioners, and with a replacement every five to nine years, unless my car spends time at the track.
Rob- Have seen this before, and it has several glittering generalities. 1. Gates actually says "follow manufacturer's recommendations". 2. When they published the 52,500 mile interval, Ferrari thought the belts has to last 50,000 miles on US cars. They do not. 3. Five years is fine by us. Nobody actually cares what you do with your belts. It is your car so anybody can use whatever justification they want for any interval, makes no difference to the rest of us. "My uncle got 12 years on the belts on his 308." Go for it. 4. With the addition of statistical data and the sure knowledge the belts can be changed without running afoul of the EPA, Ferrari now recommends 3 years. We do not know to what level of statistical probability of failure that represents. 5%, 2%, 1%? Who knows? 5. Pros like Brian Crall say belts fail that would have had no visible problems. Annual inspections are still a good idea for the cases where something is visibly worn, like a tensioner pulley or oil/gas on the belt. Taz Terry Phillips
Ferrari's lawyers are looking out for you! back in the 80's 5 years was enough... so that is what i stick with.
The top picture, I mean... Nothing wrong with the bottom one... I presume that it would be a violation of the TOS for this forum (obscene and disturbing images) to post a picture of the piston that hit that valve?
Neither does my 84 Mondial....I wish! :=) Yes, that's right...I can't seem to help reading this thread....
My 328 had it's first change in 2000 at ~50,000 miles, and the second in 2008 at 100,000. The belts were just fine at the second change, but the tensioner bearings were noisy. You're more likely to have a bad tensioner than belt, but the ultimate root cause won't -really- matter if you have a bad day,
EH- Amazingly enough, most people have no problem figuring out it is time to hit neutral and shut off the engine. Most of the time the majority of the pistons are reusable. I think Barry's car's original owner had ~29,000 miles on it when he bent 24 valves. At that time, the OM only recommended 30,000 miles for belts with no time duration specified. We are all doing OT&E for Ferrari. The four valve engine's valve stems are only about 6mm in diameter, and bend fairly readily. Not exactly a fail safe design, but better than trashing the head, pistons, cams and crank. More drastic stuff happens, too, occasionally. Taz Terry Phillips
+1 Yep. And it is always nice to get get credit for answering the same question with a "+1" for the 18465956th time. Seriously, just do it as per the latest from the manufacturer. They got the best data and USUALLY make the best recommendations. You bought the car for chump-change. NOW the REAL cost of responsible ownership rears its ugly headand sinks its teeth into YOUR wallet. Don't worry. It gets A LOT MORE EXPENSIVE after this. Welcome to the club !!!!!!! Not trying to be mean ..... just VERY REALISTIC.
I'm just adding noise here, but what I've taken from this is that the key thing about the 3 year value (which I'm shocked people are taking seriously) is that this applies to used car certification. That's meant to indicate that the car should be trouble free for some time into the future. It doesn't mean don't drive a car with more than 3 year old belts, it means that belts with more than 3 years on them will need to be serviced sooner than you'd want to have to go spend astronomical dollars on a belt change on your 355 that you just bought "certified" and ready to drive... e.g. within 2 years. I don't see 3 years as a valid service requirement at all. 3 years is what you should be using as an age for belts on a car you're looking to buy and don't want to have to service soon. (Of course, your tolerance for servicing a neused car will vary depending on how much that belt change costs.)
Thanks again guys. As usual I really appreciate the time you are taking. This forum helps out tremendous. Just a couple things for those frustrated at the re-post. I've owned the 328 for over 8 years and have been on Ferrari Chat ever since. I have gotten fantastic recommendations like this thread, the best leather treatment, info on F-1 races in Europe etc...For those who get frustrated at the re-posts...I get the same couple upset folks saying we've talked about it a million times search the old threads. The search function of the forum is not like google. You search for 328 timing belts and you will get threads on "Magnum PI" and "360 driving days next to beaches with hot chicks". I don't take offense to others frustrations but realize this information although a retread for many probably just saved me from hurting my car. Money is not the issue, not trying to cheap out, it's just inconvenient where I need to go. Now I know it is most definetly worth getting a transport to take it to get serviced. I have a good friend that finally has made the leap to Ferrari from owning Porsche's is whole life, bought a 360...it's awesome! I told him last week and again today with his questions to go to the 360 section of FChat. I just don't want him feeling gun-shy to ask for valuable advice worrying it's bringing up dead horses. Again, I really appreciate everyone's time! Thanks, Nugget
so that was 50K miles on the tensioners.... does anyone think the tensioners degrade over time (i.e. not as a factor of milage)...? well i guess i jumped in with both feet into th re-thread...;=)
Well, as I said earlier, I am now absolutely convinced that Ferrari's factory recommendations are for a belt change for all V8s as of 2002 and earlier, every three years. OTOH, that is not my personal belief and my "belt change at every tire change" (which occurs either when the tires are worn out or at 5 years, whichever occurs first) will still apply.
That happened to the previous owner of my 550, as Terry mentioned. The right bank of pistons suffered little damage as a result of the belt failure, just some superficial nicks. The 550 valve stems are thin and so they bend like that causing little damage to the pistons. Somewhere in Classic Coach's archives are pictures of the repairs. I'll see if they can retrieve them for me. I keep that valve on my desk to remind me how important it is to do timing belt changes by the book. Daniel at Ricambi has posted this picture several times which emphasizes this more dramatically. Barry Image Unavailable, Please Login
i have always followed the 7 - 8 yr rule ... my 308 went to 6 this time around, i changed it only because i heard a noisey tensioner... and sure enough one was rusty an not moving as smooth as the other - i attribute this to non regular use - as i use the TR and that i go 8-9 yrs on. my concern isnt the 3 yr rule, but more im willing to bet, they are making the belts in "China" with much cheaper materials. Therefore, they charge more, making more profit, and then everyone having to change every 3 - 4 yrs making even more profit. I kist cant help but think that the belts of today , are not of the same decent quality they were making 10 -20 yrs ago - hence the bulletin for the new service interval
I could SWEAR I fixed that problem at least a year ago.... Jedi Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
The guy was only doing what he was told when he bought the 328. I just bought a new Ford van (diesel...harder on cam belts that petrol I am told) and the recommendation from Ford is to change the cam belt after TEN years or 150,000 miles! I've been told by my local Ferrari specialist that the timing belts they renew on Ferraris are "like new" when they take them off, sometimes after less than 1,000 miles of use. According to the history with my Mondial t, my last cam belt did 400 miles, and the tensioner rollers etc have done under 2,000 miles (replaced the time before) From what I have read here, I'm going to get a yearly inspection, and replacement after 5 years.
