Hi everyone, I have a non starting issue with my recently acquired 91 348tb. I have posted a thread on the classic section but thought that I would attract more technical advice here... The problem is the following. - Drove in the rain for about 400 miles on Sunday - Monday the car won't start: ignition on and "click" is all I hear when I push the key to the next position - Changed the battery to a brand new one to cover the low voltage issue I will today check and clean the bullet connector between the battery and the starter and if it does not work, I will try to start it directly from the starter contacts as indicated in previous threads. As you have probably noticed, I'm a complete newbie and my previous toy was a 1965 911, so little electronics to fiddle with... My questions are the following: - What is the correct way / tools & products to use for checking and cleaning the connector - Are there any other connectors that I should be checking re this issue - Has anyone got a picture / clear indication of which contacts I should join to start the engine from the starter For the sake of completeness - the car is equiped with a Ferrari UK immobilizer (little electronic key needs to be inserted in a connector for a few seconds to disarm). So it might have something to do with the immobilizer failing to disarm... Which would be bad news as the car is actually immobilized on floor minus three of the underground parking lot of my office building... - when I put the contact key on ignition all electrics are working just fine, except AC controls that go completely bezerk (I have seen the right threads about it so it may either sort itself out or I'll have to clean the connectors in the controls but that's another story) The car broke doan after 24 hours of ownership. I know its usual but its abit tough when you've been dreaming about it for over ten years... I guess its ritual initiation... and as fello Fchatters indicated in my previuos thread, bugs need a while to sort out before the car can be safely relied on. Would you advise to have a general electric connectors check-out or let sleeping dogs lie...
Has anyone mentioned the Crank Position Sensors yet in the previous thread? They are located at the very bottom of the engine, facing the firewall. You probably need to remove the splash guard to view them. Ernie (or somebody) has a beautiful color drawing of them, but it was lost in the server crash this winter. The sensors have little electrical connectors held with a metal spring loaded clip. There are two of them, coming from opposite sides of the engine and face one another. I'd pull them, spray some contact cleaner, let them dry, reattach them, and try to start the car. I'm thinking that perhaps your car is missing the splash guard, and driving in the rain got them wet and waterlogged -- and now a little corroded. Plenty of folks (JDAVID) drive around without the splash guards just fine, but it might be a place to look. Lastly... and I know everone will laugh at me, but here goes: with the car in gear, gently (very gently) rock it back and forth once or twice until obviously the gearing keeps you for going any further. Put it back in neutral, and try to start it.
Daniel, I believe Louis's car will not even turn over so the CPS is not the initial problem. If it cranks over and will still not start then maybe. Cheers
Good point. Must have not read it clearly (heck it was 5:30 in the morning when I posted) ERNIE -- can you repost the picture for the CPS, just so we'll have it back on the board? -Daniel
All you here is a click? With a new battery the starter should be able to spin the crank. After a long trip through the rain the day before the connectors to the starter maybe corroded. Those contacts should be cleaned with a steel brush. Sometimes a slight kick with a hammer on the starter helps when it is buggy. Sometimes the starter is out of adjustment. Pushing the car a bit forward in a high gear helps to get the starter in his right position again. (with a buddy pushing and you playing with the clutch pedal) You can try to test the starter itself by connecting it directly on 12 Volt. Goodluck. very nice 348! cinque PS: Check all the fuses first. Should the Immobilizer interrupt cranking or just ignition and fuel?
Guys, Thanks a lot for the indications and comments on the car. Back from the parking lot. - cleaned the bullet connector, - fiddled with the connection plug on the starter - pushed gently the car in 5th - As Daniel rightly pointed out, the strater will not even crank - Forgot to mention that I checked all fuses except the 30A A/C fuse, which I failed to locate in spite of the number of posts on the subject... still learning... I'm starting to suspect the immobilizer which is rather bad news... I'm about to call Paris main dealer... this is how desperate I am. No easy way out of this one I guess. Cannot lift the car so access to starter is quite difficult. I'l try hammering it gently before calling. The worse thing is that I find it so beautiful that I'm not even angry. Just watching it already puts a wide smile on my face !!! Thanks a lot for your help. Louis
The 30A HVAC fuse is located under the bonnet carpet -- you probably need to remove the whole carpet unit (it's one big assembly that pops out). On the passenger side of the car, near all the ABS connections, you'll see a big 30A blade fuse, near several relays. The big 30A blad fuse controls the HVAC blower. Mine replacement fuse is seen here (circled), but your blad fuse will be in a similar location: Image Unavailable, Please Login
OK, got it. Thanks John, I know it's a useful thing to know... I'm having an alarm installer disarm my immobilizer tomorrow morning as I suspect it heavily. More news later. Louis
Louis: I'd like to make a couple of comments on your problem. First, I don't think it's likely (but it's possible) that your problem is with your immobilizer. If you have checked the archives here, you have seen that there have been numerous instances of 348's failing to crank over due to a voltage drop at the ignition switch. This problem can be identified by the "click" that you get as you turn the key to the "start" position. There is voltage reaching the starter solenoid, but not enough to engage the starter. If the problem was in your immobilizer, I would think that there would be no "click" at all - the circuit would be bypassed. Before having someone disable the immobilizer, you should attempt to do the test of jumping the terminals on the solenoid. You know that your battery is good. You know that the other circuits operated by the ignition switch are working. It certainly wouldn't hurt to make sure that the contacts are clean and tight, but you need to test the starter with full voltage, to see if the problem is due to the voltage drop. There are two types of 348 starters, the Bosch and the Nippondenso. I'm not certain of the changeover dates, but I think that only the early cars used the Bosch starter. Whichever one is used, there are only two wire connections on the solenoid. Full battery voltage should come through the main wire, which is attached with a nut. The signal wire from the ignition switch comes through the other wire, which has a push-on terminal. The Nippondenso solenoid is up top, the Bosch is down lower. Either one should be reachable from the top, not from under the car. Edit: my car has the Nippondenso starter - I'm not certain that the terminals on the Bosch starter can be easily reached from above. The first thing to do, VERY IMPORTANT, is to make sure that the gear shift is in neutral. Then, unplug the signal wire. Then, you need to jump between the stud/nut with the positive cable on it (on the solenoid) and the signal terminal (the blade on the solenoid that used to have the signal wire on it). You can make this connection either with a stout metal object (like a screwdriver blade) or with a remote start button having two alligator clips. You don't want to let the jumper go from 12V power to any ground surface, or you will get a direct short to ground. But once you jump from positive power to the start signal terminal, the starter should immediately engage and crank over. That's why you must be sure that the shifter is in neutral. If it's in gear, the car will jump and you and/or the car could be injured. If the starter still will not engage when you do this test, then the problem is in the starter itself. If the starter will engage by jumping it, but won't engage with the key, then you need to replace the ignition switch or rig a bypass system to get full power to the solenoid. It should also be mentioned, just in case you are not aware of it, that once your battery has been disconnected, you need to go through the "re-initializing" process to make sure that your Motronic units are correctly set up. The process is very simple and has been discussed many times in the past, but I'm sure someone here would be happy to describe the procedure for you if need be. Sorry about the trouble with your new car, hopefully it's a simple problem and can quickly be corrected.
I've done the 'rocking the car' thing for a no start situation and it will work for a greasy contact, but that's probably not it in this case. I agree that the starter is not getting enough voltage. The fault could be anywhere, but since my Lotus had the same symptom I want to chime in. It turned out to be the ground cable from the battery to the frame. It looked fine, clean and tight, and I had electricty to the car, but I traced the fault to it after eliminating every other possibility. Since it *looked* fine it was the last thing I checked! A new cable and the car started like new. Ken
"Rocking the car" doesn't help anything unless the problem is the meshing between the starter drive gear and the flywheel ring gear. There ARE instances where you can get a very temporary fix by rapping on the starter with a hammer (I'd use the handle, not the head), if the problem is a dirty connection between the brushes and the commutator (more likely to find a problem like this on an old Chevy). And it IS possible to overhaul the starter solenoid internal contacts on the Nippondenso starter. The contacts are Nippondenso generic parts, not Ferrari parts.
I was thinking about this while I was out mowing the lawn. Of course the first thing to check would be pull the signal wire off the solenoid, hook up a test light to the wire, and have someone turn the key to the start position to see if you are getting any power at all from the ignition switch to the starter. If you don't get a light, then either the ignition switch is totally dead (unlikely), or the immobilizer is blocking the circuit (possible), or something is wrong in the wiring (again, unlikely). The common symptom with this problem seems to be that full voltage gets to the ignition switch, and full voltage gets from the battery to the starter through the main cable, but less than full voltage gets from the ignition switch to the solenoid, and the starter won't kick over on less than full voltage. You can still get circuit showing with a test light, but if you check it with a multimeter, you're getting less than 12 Volts, and she won't crank until you jump the terminals. The tests to narrow down your problem should be easy to accomplish in less than 15 minutes.
Ahhhh. These French women. They know how to drive us men crazy!! ps: Louis, have you tried some flowers? pps: Miltonian's advice is right on the money
OK, do you want to hear a fairy tale? Called Hamilton & Palmer who supplied the immobilizer to Ferrari UK to get information on how to neutralise the system, which they naturally refused to do, which is good. They only agreed to supply this information to Ferrari UK. Then called Ferrari UK technicians to ask if they would kindly call Hamilton & Palmer to ask them the same question, which they very kindly agreed, subject to my sending reams of personal and car identification data. Special thanks to Ferrari UK technicians who agreed to help me out on a car that they never sold or maintained. I know its normal but its rare among other importers In the meantime, had the alarm specialists I had called in Paris came over to the office parking lot. It took them just 10 minutes to discover that there were 3 other circuit-breakers hidden all over the car on top of the Ferrari UK immobilizer and neutralize all four of them, which is quite frightening And it started right away. Did wait for 30 mins for the ECUs to settle as advised. And on top of it the AC controls woke up Special thanks should go to David Miller Forza 288 in the UK who sold the car to me. David, on top of delivering the car on a Sunday afternoon and picking me up at the train station (I came from France..), called everyday to see how I was progressing and directed me to the immobilizer all the time. Thats what I call supportive and efficient aftersales service. I forgot to mention that the car is absolutely pristine in and out. He had previously been recommended on various threads here, and I can only confirm that and more. Finally, I would like to thank all of you fellow Fchatters for the incredible efforts you have put to find a solution on this. It actually helped be understand the car and in particular, I would never had tempted and actually managed to undo the airbox to actually find and clean the bullet connector between the battery and the starter. Special thanks go to Miltonian for thinking about me while mowing the lawn and for writing the longest post on a thread I started. I had followed similar threads and in particular the one posted by jkuk in March 2004 which identified the Crank Position Sensor issue and was already amazed by the involvement of Fchatters and the fact that it actually solved the problem. Now Im done thanking everyone, Im planning to drive #89282 down to the the Ile de Ré, off the Atlantic coast for the WE. Next issue will be hot starting but I see that there are threads on this one as well . A bientot and bonne route ! PS geekstreet, maybe the flowers helped
Well, I jumped the gun assuming that your ignition switch was causing the problem. I guess the question now is, was there something wrong with your immobilizer, or did the seller simply not give you proper instructions on how to operate the system? I've always hated those things. When I worked for an Acura/Honda dealership, I removed quite a number (100+??) "security systems" from used cars and threw them into the dumpster, because we had so many problems with them, mostly due to sloppy installations. I'm very glad to hear that you are now able to start and enjoy your 348!
Now THAT'S being overly paranoid about security! Let's hope that there also isn't installed a hidden fuel-cutoff timer that may leave you stranded after another 15 mins of driving! . . . . And I wouldn't overlook the possibility of a "self-destruct after 30 minutes" device hidden under the spare wheel, either! Certainement!
