The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Then neither is #0856 the same car that Ferrari built ... because that car was just restored!

Your original debate direction has many holes in it.

A car can be the same car but completely different to how it was built ... very logical.

For example: If I bought say a 360CS from Ferrari, added wings and other horrible skirts and things. The car is still the same car ... but not original.

What you are actually trying to say, is if it is not in the same configuration as when it was campaigned by Ferrari you do not consider it the same car. That again has many holes in it. Ferrari as you know changed the configuration of these cars around to suit themselves ... who are we to determine which configuration to restore it in.

Yes I admit I would have restored the car as it was at Daytona ... but in many ways Jim not doing this proves that it was a genuine discovery that the car was #0846 and that he was NOT trying to pull a fast one.

Pete

 

Oh, No I'm not. As far as I am concerned, in this case the two are very much inter-twined. By re-bodying the alleged #0846 chassis as a P4 Berlinetta, Mr. G. has succeeded in creating a 'bastard' P4 (albeit a beautiful one) on what was allegedly the sole surving P3/4 chassis. He has effectively lost the identity of the original car, by reclothing it.

You would be surprised how much Mr. G was 'into history'. Especially in the Old FerrariChat threads, when he tried to misquote it to suit his car: "This is 0846. It was a P3 that was converted by Ferrari into the first P4. It has a long history including winning Daytona in 1967. It was raced as both a coupe and a spyder."
Er ... I don't think so Jim

 

But did you read Doug Nye's reply debunking this answer in Post #184 of the Atlas F1 330P4 thread ?
He summed it up in one word. "Poppycock". That's an old-fashioned and polite way of saying .......

 

And I will reserve the right to reply to this one, on the grounds that it will probably result in more thinly-veiled threats of legal action .... Besides, it's late - G'dday, Pete - and Good Night.

 

But of course nobody has come up with an answer to my ongoing question:
Exactly how much of the chassis on Jim's car is even ALLEDGED or MAINTAINS THE POSSIBILITY of coming from the chassis of 0846?

Once again, I ask: HOW MUCH OF THE CHASSIS IS ALLEDGED TO HAVE COME FROM 0846? One tube? A bracket? A brace? Three tubes one foot long? One tube three feet long?

HOW CAN THE DEBATE BE DISCUSSED IF NOBODY WILL SAY EXACTLY HOW MUCH OF THE RESTORED CHASSIS IS ALLEDGED TO HAVE COME FROM 0846?

Once that is determined, the point could be mute because even IF a few tubes DID come from 0846, unless the amount of CONFIRMED metal in the chassis exceeds 50%, then that certainly does not MAKE the car 0846. It just means a few 0846 scraps were incorporated into the chassis.

(Once again, I don't think that there is ANY way to PROVE that ANY of the UNMARKED pieces ever came from ANYTHING. They're just pieces of metal with no traceable history. And when you're talking about a potential multi-million dollar car, there has to be PROOF!)

 

I though will allow Jim to keep trying to prove his case. If you read the next post in that thread you will see that others have supported Wayne Sparling comments that Jim posted.

Thus some believe in guilty until proven innocent ... others the other way around.

From what I have seen I'm a believer ... yes there are many doubts, but I am hoping that over time we can join the known history of #0846 and #0003 together, OR ofcourse we might find absolute proof that they are not one and the same ... this has as yet not happened either.

The only way we can ever consider Jim's car to be the modern form of #0846 (rebodied or wearing a replica body, or whatever you want to call it) is if we can plug these history gaps. Jim is trying to do that ... witness his reply to Doug.

Pete

 

Horsefly,

The reason nobody has answered this very relevant question yet is I do not think we know exactly YET.

Again given time hopefully the history gaps will be plugged and then we will know whether Piper (or somebody for Piper) simply repaired #0846's chassis or cut a bracket of it and made a new chassis.

Instead of continuously asking the obvious question ... is there anyway you can help? ... I cannot from Australia that is for sure.

Pete

 

Nathan,
This is not about opinion, if the chassis is 0846, then the car is 0846. This is not my opinion, its accepted as fact. It has been decided in court for other cars that the chasis makes the car and that makes it no longer a matter of opinion.

What is opinion is wether or not JG has 0846 under his P3/4.

By the way I have some books you've written. Nicely done.

Ed
IC, Inc

 

Bodywork does not make the car. The chassis is what matters. In some cases were the privateer won a given race such as LM, that bodywork may even be preferred.

Ed

 

It has been decided. Over and over again. You may not accept that they are different things but the classic car community already has. As evidenceed by the accepting of MANY cars as genuine such as GTO's when most all have modified bodies. Just about every race Ferrari has and they are accepted as the real deal even when motors and bodies are redone.

Ed

 

Pete
Hi
So far I've only been able to drive it from the trailer onto the Field at Quail. It went, still wet and completely unsorted to the Photo Studio (VintageMotor Sports and then on to Calif. It won't be back until tomorrow am. We'll begin to sort it and then I'll give you a full report. The Ford and the Lola are racking up the miles. Over 1200 on the Lola since she was restored and even more on the Ford this summer. (Ford has over 25K street miles by now) Those two are similar but the Ford is more of a brute. 166S 002C arrived last night. Sal has her apart and she'll be back together and drivable next week. We're going to rent a track to sort P 3/4 before I take her out on the street. Having come this far I don't want to do something stupid until we get her right. Hey next spring hop on over, Wolfgang did, and you can see for yourself. Those around Labor Day weekend at Lime Rock all of the above will be there at the Ferrari of Long Island Transporter. I'll be driving the Lola up, 100+ miles. In November they'll all be at the FQCC in New Orleans along with the people who Painted, Fit the NOS Alloy Body, rebuilt the engines put back together and keep them running. Everyone is welcome to have a look for themselves and hundreds of people did at Luguna and Quail last week.
Best

 

Yes renting a track sounds like a sensible idea. Just make sure the brakes work first ...

My wife suggested a little while back while I was boring her with tails of Monteray (sp?) that I should take a trip over ... so who knows maybe I will next year

Pete

 

Okay I think it is time for a summary post, ie: Where are we at.

1. We know that Ferrari converted #0846 into a P4 ... hence the P3/4 term.
2. We know that Chris Amon tried to destroy the car at Le Mans
3. We know from several sources (refer Wayne Ausbrook's and also Jim's posts) that the car was not destroyed.
4. We believe that Piper purchases many parts that once made up either 100% or some lesser value of #0846.
5. We know that Piper created 3 cars: 0900 and 0900a as P4's and this car that he refers to as #00003 (I guess we can assume that he refers to 0900 as #00001 and 0900a as #00003).
6. We know that Jim bought #00003 as a fibreglass bodied P3 (I think P3?) spyder. With no chassis number.
7. We know that Jim also bought from Piper a NOS alloy P4 coupe body.
8. We know also that #00003 was powered by a 3 litre v12 engine with a block matching that of a P4 (ie. curved rib).
9. We know that Jim has corrected (right term?) the engine size to 4 litres without having to change any castings.
10. We know that the gearbox is a genuine P3 gearbox that was once fitted to #0846.
11. We know that parts of the engine and the gearbox have run at Le Mans due to scrutineering stamps.
12. We know that #0846's chassis was repaired after it's Targa Floria accident and that the person who made the repair did atleast once (as heard by witnesses) indicate to Jim that his chassis has a similar repair.
13. We know that Jim's chassis is a P3/4 chassis and not a P4 chassis like 0900 and 0900a (and #0856).
14. We know that Jim has had the uprights recast by Ferrari after a request indicating that he was restoring #0846.
15. We know that Jim has also had the wheels recast ... to Pipers modified version (ie. wider).
16. We know that Jim found repairs to one of the fibre glass doors that look 'similar' to photos of the Targa Floria accident.
17. We know that Jim's chassis has further repairs that would possibly correspond to the majority of the fire damage #0846 suffered at Le Mans.
18. We know the tyre changing hammer head is missing at Le Mans ...

What is missing?
1. Who made the chassis for #00003?. I am under the impression that it was the same company that Ferrari used to make their chassis'.
2. Why in this process did they not simply repair #0846 and sell it to Piper?
3. How come Piper did not notice that it was a P3/4 chassis during his ownership of #00003?

Pete

 

True, but the main problem in THIS case is just exactly how much of the CHASSIS came from 846, and how much is a modern recreation of a P4 chassis? At this point, we simply don't know the answer.

In the case with the GTOs, from what I know, the chassis components are substantially original. I would tend to agree with those who consider the chassis as the most important component of a car.

 

Good summary to date Pete.

 

I must have said the same thing about 2 dozen times.

But that was not the statement I was responding to. The response I gave was to:

Originally Posted by dretceterini
Being the same car and originality are completely different things

Pete:
To a number of people, including myself, they are not different things. A certain percentage of the car has to be original (that percentage can ultimately be decided by the classic car community, as I previously suggested), or the car becomes a recreation and is not a real car.


You're mixing up my asnwers with different questions. Someone may very well have to decide how much chassis is needed before it becomes a replica.

Ed

 

Pete, I have to question your summary item #3:

"We know from several sources...that the car was not destroyed."

All we know is that we have a grainy picture, taken from a frame of film, that shows a P4 known to be #0846 after it had caught fire at the 1967 24 Hours of LeMans. We have no way of knowing how badly the car was damaged in that fire, but it APPEARS that the damage was not bad enough to consider it "destroyed".

However, the car was never again entered in a race by Ferrari, and it is entirely possible that the car was broken up for spares and its chassis discarded. If the story is to believed, the chassis was acquired by Tom Meade and chucked into the scrapyard. By Ferrari's reckoning, the P3/4 once known as #0846 may very well have been destroyed. In fact, unless Ferrari stills shows #0846 on their books as an active chassis number, either owned by the factory or sold to another owner, then I'd say it WAS destroyed.

If Ferrari now wishes to acknowledge that Jim owns Ferrari P3/4 #0846, then they should issue a new chassis plate to him and put an end to the argument.

 

We have more than the grainy picture we have quotes from relevant people. I refer you to this post of mine laying out Wayne Ausbrooks initial investigation:

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134371754&postcount=203

and I quote

But

This could be true. But I ask you if all those pieces were welded back together to make chassis #0003 ... does that constitute a repaired chassis or a new one?. It definitely is not a replica, because it was made from a genuine chassis ... ?

We know that atleast part of #0846's chassis is #0003 ... it is going to become a how much is could enough, isn't it ... but only of the chassis. Nothing else matters. But considering that #0003 also has the engine mounts of a P3 and modifications to make it a P3/4 ... one could be excused for thinking that it is more likely most of the chassis than less ... otherwise it would be in P4 format.

Hopefully research is under way to answer this question ... and to me this is the answer to Jim's cars authentication.

Pete

 

I'm not questioning whether or not a car was seen in Switzerland with chassis #0846 in 1977. Forget 1977. I'm questioning whether or not FERRARI considered the car as an entity at the end of the 1967 racing season. Did FERRARI declare it "demolita", did they make a record of its sale, or is it still on their books? I don't think any of us know the answer, but I don't see how there could be a fourth possibility. If they don't have a record of what became of it, what's to keep "Joe Blow" from making a claim on it? What if Tom Meade decides it's still his?

Edit: What became of the chassis with "0846" stamped on it?

Kind regards to you, Mr. G.

 

Ed
thanks for the compliment - as a new boy on FChat I notice that there are very few of them around here
Unfortunately I don't accept "the chassis = the car" concept.
Analogy - If I have the genuine, undisputed, original frame for the Mona Lisa does that mean that whatever I put in it miraculously becomes the Mona Lisa?

 

Unfortunately I don't accept "the chassis = the car" concept.
I might accept a qualified statement such as "this is 0846 with a replica body" or "a replica on 0846 chassis" - just as you put - (Quote)it is #0846 repowered by a Chev v8 -
see, a qualified statement.

 

Pete
It certainly is the latest form of 0846 - but it can't be both ways. You can't say "it is the latest form of #0846" and "it is 0846" - the two statements are different, therefore only one can be correct - It's either one or the other -

The big problem here is that there are massive differences of opinion about how much of a car needs to be original for it to be recognised as a specific vehicle. Some are saying that "If part of the original chassis exists, then the whole car can be 0846" - others, like myself, " a substantial part of the car must be original for it to be 0846". There is no agreement, therefore the discussion will continue for a long time with no resolve.

But, thanks to FChat and Jim's postings we know how this car was constructed, and what from. Those that are really interested (either now or in the future) will know how this car was constructed, and what from. They will form their own opinions.

In the end, my (even our) OPINION makes little difference. Whatever we believe will be true for each of us.

 

Oh, you nattering nabobs of nepotism.

Look. If you bang a brunette, but she dyes her hair to red, does that mean you didn't bang her?
No, of course not. That's her, all right.

So much for the chassis.

Add to that equation:

There's a redhead who dyes her hair to brunette. You drill her a good one. After bumping into you at the store, you both walk into the hair care department. You say, "you know, you would make that shade of red look really good," she then dyes it to that different shade of red. Does that mean she's not a natural redhead?
No, of course not. It's just hair. Looks hot, though.

So much for whining about berlinetta > spyder > berlinetta.

Quite frankly, since getting a grip on yourselves isn't working, I think y'all need a good fnck. It shows.

 

At the absotule least 80% probably as much as 95%.

 

So, what would be the problem? If you'd accept that Mr G's car is 0846 with a replicabody, than you also accept that Mr G's car is actually 0846. Before you can put a replicabody on 0846, you'd have to own 0846, wouldn't you?

So, the body is not original (no dispute about that I believe), but then the endresult is that 0846 has emerged again. We know where it is. It is in the possesion of Mr G and it's fitted with a new body.

Is the car in it's current form the car which raced in Le Mans and Daytona? No it isn't, but as long as it's historical end legal identity is concerned, it is 0846.