Low maintenance...? Are you nuts...? Have you seen his sneakers...? Have you heard of the story behind them and all the places they've been...?!? i do NOT want to be around when it's time for him to get a new pair...
Dale: The teeth are fine. But thanks for the offer. F1 cars bring up an interesting point. Ferrari makes about 8-12 F1 cars a year, depending on the season. These are numbered tubs that are certified for racing. One will be crash tested and thus "destroyed". There are other tubs that are molded to be used as static display items. These are the ones that are seen at promotional events (no electronics, engine, etc...). These are not "real" cars and occasionally come up for sale in the region of $35-65k. They do not have a three digit chassis number like a real F1 car. Now, Ferrari has been selling off F1 cars that are 3 years old or older (the newer ones go to Sauber, just kidding). Not in the big league to buy one yet, it is my understanding that you'll get the car and a start up package which includes basically the equipment needed to get the car moving and do some minor adjustments. I don't know what other spares Ferrari sells to their clients. If you really follow the sport, you'll notice all sorts of different wing and body panel configurations that evolve from the "debut" show car that is presented in February to the car that completes the last lap at the last race. Most are raced about 3-5 weekends so all run different panels and bits during their career. Now, some people say that you can't have a car that was built off of a small section of chassis (or the infamous tach needle). If you really want to take it to the extreme, you can't have a race car with chassis xxx unless you have all of the bodywork, the engines, and the gearboxes that were on it during its racing career. Things get broken, bent and worn out. Race teams don't really care. When the part is no longer functional, it goes in the trash. Just go to a Ferrari Challenge race and its possible to get bodywork, rotors, brake pads and even bent rims if you go dumpster diving. If that is the case, there is no such thing as a complete race car. Anywhere. As far as correctness, I wish someone whould show me a vintage photo of a rare Ferrari race car from the 50's and 60's where the engine was perfect, the bodywork has a mirror finish to it and all of the stitching on the interior was flawless. The heroes in the world are people like Bryan Phillip's dad who never repainted his Mondial and never made it "perfect". Its always funny that when you look in every other collectable hobby, restorations are usually highly frowned upon, but with cars, we want to make it "perfect", even when we all know it wasn't when it was made. For the 399 car, my spreadsheet with all of its race history is on my other computer. I'm pretty sure that as modern as it is, there is documentation as to what was fixed. Without a complete review of all of the evidence, I can't pass judgment on what happened. If someone has all of the evidence and would like to send it to me, I'd be happy to review it and give my opinion. Erik
Dale: I just asked a similar question in the 0846 thread about our cells...We, @ 20-40yo, should really not have any of our original cells left. So, are we really us? When does a car/human/hammer stop being itself? Our cells don't think, so that argument is out. Hmmmmm. Existentially yours My karma ran over my dogma Lee
I promised myself I'd stay on the sidelines, but I simply can't take the level of immature and innane commentary I've come accross. These types of debates are the direct result of a bunch of "esteemed intellectuals" who're in the business of turning a viscreal, emotional and passionate love of things and into an academic excercise; one of those annoying video store clerks who gives you the evil eye for renting spaceballs in lieu of some chic and "meaningful" film noir flick (not that there's anything wrong with film noir). It is with this myopic lens with which the "academic" gleans, extract and reduces all the mythic human enterprise from his "subject." Perverting the essence, the nuance of it into a mental masturbation session of epic proportion. (It makes for great book deals, tho... oh, and you can become an expert - even if you're expretise is born out of personal prejudice and bias.) The real "truth" here is that a man had the dedication, commitment, passion and love to endure years of restoration, labor to complete and present to us, a cherished nugget of racing's illustrious past. Yet here we stand, atop our soapboxes and ideological plateus, lacking the wherewithal to thank him for his personal generosity to fill a once empty shell with life. They should thank him he's given all the critical "academics" a reason to write another book ... oh where oh where would they all be without their books? Whatever people may call it, what's sitting in Mr. G's garage is his 0846. Period. He has not only made the sacrafice of resurrecting a phantom, but he has also gone through elaborate (and belaboured) steps to appease the peanut gallery of critcs who with all their resources could not , and have not made the sacrafice, to duplicate Mr. G's contribution to the living history of motor racing. Every one of you who wishes to discredit Mr. G's intentions and sacrafice should take a minute , look in the mirror and think carefully about what you've done to keep the soul, the passion and spirit of motor racings twilight years bright. Yeah, that's what I thought...
lol! i realy was referring to jim as the kind of guy your mom told you be... if you are good, you don't need to tell others...they will just know! while i have never met jim, i have friends that have and all would agree, jim is one of the good guys. pcb
Call me crazy, but I take a more technical, logical approach to things. With the vast resources and intelligence among the members of F-chat, certainly somebody can post a diagram of a P4 Ferrari chassis. On that diagram, please indicate with arrows and circles exactly which parts of Jim's car have been postively confirmed to be from the original 0846 car that raced at LeMans in 1967. A simple request, and with all the "believers" on the board, something that should be easy enough to do. And that way everybody can easily see exactly how much of the original car remains.
Call me crazy, but if you're such a dedicate sleuth , why didn't you fly out to examine the body yourself?
OK. You're crazy. If it was that easy, that concrete, this thread wouldn't exist, nor would the ''experts''have jobs. What if Enzo and JH Christ personally welded the new bits in place. Or their proxies. Versus a shop in Tijuana. Piper said it 'was a replica frame. Why would he make a NEW frame then weld in repaired sections? His pile of stuff is huge, and I think his recall is weak. Why don't you go read from the beginning of this before you prosetylize.
You answered your own question. Yep the Ferrari community care, because they are all interested in the cars history. Normal people could not give a toss they just see a car with NO history. What a crock! The majority of not only the Ferrari community, but of the classic car community are people who could care less about a car's history. They care about status, wealth, and pretention. Those who actually own these types of cars and care about them would never enter into a discussion about the history of their vehicle.
Hey, i've met him; on several occasions... and he's DEFINIUTELY one of the good guys... ...i still don't want to be anywhere in close proximity when it's time for him to choose a new pair of kicks... ...and keep my mother out of this...
Umm, what planet are you from?? Status, wealth and pretention? Sounds like jealous sour grapes to me. I own/owned these types of cars, and the history is what makes the cars. You're telling me a Nardi-Danese won't have an interesting history? Why do you call yourself Dr. Etceterini? Not Mr. Etcerini? Just because your life failed to meet your expectations due to family illness, whatever, doesn't give you right to generalize about owners or our motives. you and P4 rep need to go see a therapist (hopefully one who doesn't drive )
That would be CHASSIS, not the body, which Jim has already indicated is not the original fiberglass body which suffered major damage at the '67 Leman's fire. (Stay on track Hubert.)
The Fchat crowd and others seem to think our consensus of J G s car is 0846 matters somehow in the Ferrari community, the opinions here mean nothing although it may be a entertaining and interesting debate. It is going to be made by the respected Ferrari historians and experts. But since everyone has their .02 cents to add, I'll add mine, even if this car does not have any of 0846's frame it's still a genuine Ferrari not a replica since the major parts are NOS made from the period, the body, engine block and so forth, just the same as if you found and old 308 body, engine and frame bits and slapped it together today it would still be a real Ferrari 308. If the original repair techs sign notarized affidavits stating this car is 0846 and some kind of period test can be made, as I am sure the same original frame guy was used on each P3/P4 you could recognize his welds and work, as each are individual. Ferrari factory welds are unique also, looking at the frame welds on my Boxer it looked like a half juiced Italian welded them up with a $99 stick welder and left splatter marks everwhere, not the pretty tight precise welds you get from a wire fed welder (MIG) tech that does it all day here in the US, if you really wanted to get fancy you could analize the welds under a microscope to determine the type of welder and wire used to compare to other period race Ferraris, then it would be icing on the cake of this car as confirming its history.
Horsefly, You must be a politician. I have just read those posts you are referring to and you have come very close to misrepresenting what Wayne said ... and we must also remember that this was early days in the research. For those interested here are the Wayne's relevant posts from the above thread/link: Yep Piper ran a race team ... unless you were ACTUALLY born yesterday that should be old news Interesting ... reference to a pile of parts NOT scraps. Is this proof of Piper confusing himself ... ? Now this post is real interesting ... but also offers more confusion. We have talk of a complete car, then 'parts of a frame'. Now ofcourse Piper made 3 of these cars, plus he has owned many other P cars (P2's, etc.) thus we have no conclusive proof of which chassis we are talking about ... but it could have been #0846's chassis and then he had it welded back together ?? And we all know that ... any car Piper owned has a HUGE story of confusion Again we return (or repeat) the near complete chassis comment. Thus from all these comments we really cannot make 100% certain whether the chassis was complete or not, so the bits and pieces comment is unprovable at this stage. The truth could easily be the near complete story ... Pete
So do they get to drive it around? Hey Dad, I got a date tonight and was wondering if I could take the P4....... A couple pics I snapped after the Christies Auction:
Ho hum....Yet another guy that doesn't like what I say, so they start a personal attack to attempt to discredit me. Something I am very familiar with. I may have criticized someone's OPINION, but I have NEVER engaged in personal attacks. I am intersted in what people think of my OPINIONS. I couldn't care less what they think of ME. I have ZERO desire to own one of these kinds cars, no matter how much it is worth. Posessions are of ZERO importance to me, beyond having food, shelter, and clothing that are half way decent. I have one suit, a 1995 Toyota, and live in an inexpensive apartment...not because I can't afford "better", but because I am who I am, and what others think of that simply doesn't matter to me. The only reason I use the Dr title is because I actually have 3 PhDs. My goals have always been nothing more than knowledge and truth. I have had more than 100 CHEAP sportscars because I enjoy the experience of driving them, and no one cares. What in the world gives you the idea that my life doesn't meet my desires or expectations? You may see my views regarding "car people" as generalizations, but they are based on 35 years of experience in the classic car world; NOT as an investor or broker who treats cars as commodities, but simply as a fan and historian. Maybe you are right an I do need therapy, as I refuse to be part of the game of trying to be trendier and more pretentious than the next guy.
BRAVO!!!!!! I must say you have done an excellent job at claiming some sort of anti-materialist moral high ground while simultaneously one upping everyone in a look what I have owned sort of way. As for myself??? Indulgence and debauchery please
etceterini, I assure you that almost all owners of multi-million dollar Ferraris are "fans and historians." As such, they are only too glad to "enter into a discussion about the history of their vehicle." Your own pretentious suggestion that you care more about the spirit of the cars than do the enthusiasts who own them is belied by your recurrent, incomprehensible self-contradiction: you claim to care about the history, the panache, the essence of the automobile, and yet you see them as mere property. Indeed, it is still baffling how, in the same statement, you can suggest that you see these cars purely as "possessions" and yet claim to be a "fan and historian" of them.
I did not attack you. You made fallacious statement about owners. It was rude. You are on a forum of people who care about these cars and own them, yet you dismiss us all? You complained in another thread how you used up your life savings caring for your ill mother...you sounded quite put out about it. Trendy/Pretentious? I've owned Ferraris for years, and I actually used to hide them, to not stir jealousy. I use them, and don't drive them to the club. Nor do many of my friends here. I rarely bring up cars except on forums, and even then, I try not to overwhelm. You brag on owning 100 cars, but they mean nothing? You wrote about cars, but you don't care? The cars do not change people. Nor does 3 post doc degrees. I have 2, and I think it is pretentious to use them out of the area they are earned. Your argument is too incoherent to dislike. Your overgeneralizations and contradictory premises fail scrutiny of facts in evidence.
