The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Like I said... I have the utmost respect for Mr. Nye and I understand he is one of the moremost authorities on this subject.

Still, like you say he is a friend of Pipers and is thus likely to be influenced by Pipers opinions as well as influenced through his own personal biases as you pointed out. Hey, were all human!

Still, I would trust Mr. Nye to give an unbiased opinion and evaluation of the car and its legitimacy to a claim as 0846... IF he had actually seen it and really investigated Jims findings. The bottom line is that he has not seen the car and thus actually knows less about the evidence than I do having received Jims booklet and reviewed detailed photos of the evidence.

I do share your questions about Piper. By reputation he is a sharp trader and wheeler dealer and its hard to envisions him missing these type of clear differences in the chassis's he had commissioned. How could he not have noticed the clear differences and wouldnt these differences have raised serious questions in his mind just as they did for Jim?

Maybe Piper never noticed the differences because he never assembled the car himself and nobody thought anything of it way back when? Who knows?

Wouldnt it be nice if Piper would join the 21st century and post himself!

If you live down the road from him.... go over there and show him how to post! Tell him that all us Ferrari nuts would not only be interested in hearing his thoughts on this subject, but hearing about all the dozens of other amazing stories he could tell! I mean really... who would NOT want to hear David Piper post about his Ferrari experiences?!?!?!??!


Terry

 

I like your style, Terry.

 

We showed XK-D 513 @ Pebble...car was factory D-Jag, rare Weslake 35/40 head, Large dry sump which drooped over framerail. Car was 2nd LM 57, crashed, split in two, killed driver(Mary) in 58. Tub was repaired, re-bodied with Michelotto body for paris IIRC in 63. Late 70's or so, car was rebodied as original by Lynx, Michelotto body was eventually put on repop chassis. So, there are 2 XK-D 513's out there, the coupe was for sale on euro website last year as a D, no mention of this little history.

We did well @ PB, despite racing the day before. The provenance in my book goes with the chassis, and Jim's car as well as 513 both have nost of the original chassis. Piper seems to have sampled more than his share of scotch over his lifetime, and the clues are there.

0718TR had a chevy in it for a while, had Pete Lovely's TR60 motor in it when they were swapped during re-build @ factory in early 60's. Now, both that car and 0718 have correct motors in'em, but never had question of authenticity.
Was a lot of fun putting correct motors together with the chassis though.

FWIW
Lee
PS:Jim, congrats on 002, and successful debut of 0846. Drive'em in good health.

 

Lee, LOL!

Point well made that Piper had three frames for one made, the other two "hanging in the barn" as near as I recall .........so it appears the diferrences were not noted by the oh so sharp Mr. Piper, Famous Grouse or no.....

There have also been ...via Fchat...some disturbing comments concerning swapping of body panels and such...from what was indicated in the Bill Of Sale. That part may not yet be over, to those of us reading the white part of the page as well as the black.....

I'm not sure the reopening of this squabble serves anyone at all.....

Jim G. has always shared his knowledge with this forum, and has gotten brickbats as his reward.....

 

Nye got a little too cute with his writing style on that dispatch.

I've read it several times and STILL don't understand what he's trying to express...can some one put bullet points on that or show me his preliminary outline?

It seems he couldn't find the car, but found his opinion, nonetheless....

He starts off with the mathmatics metaphor but never adds to a sum total.

 

Did Mr. Nye document at the time of his article on 0900, the three frames Piper had made in lieu of one Enzo Ferrari authorized?

Seems to me that would have had the phone lines warm at the time, had it been known.......

Even he's not exactly Mr. Clean on this, maybe a little too close to the subject at hand.......

They were all in the barn at the same time...........AH HA!

 

Hopefully Piper's almost out of parts from this magic barn of his............

 

Paul did you see Jim's car if so what are your views?

As opposed to Doug Nye's who as you've already stated hasnt actually seen Jims car.

It reminds me of trying to get a piece of furntiure valued for my insurance, the "expert" didnt even glance at the photo he just wanted his cheque and for that I got his opinion on something he hadnt seen.............

 

Yeah, Nye got a little too cute. He was fairly critical of Mr. G's intentions for the car. What business is it of his if Jim decides to honor his promise to his wife and not race? He owns the car, and it's his right to use it as he pleases. I give Jim a lot of credit for preserving and using these icons, and I can't wait to see what he has in store for his latest acquisition. Imagine having that baby pull up on your bumper at a stoplight! Get out of the way, I'm coming through!

 

Dear Lee,

Maybe I don't understand your post, but from my research after the chevy was removed in the mid 70's it was replaced with motor 0750 from Joel Finn by Bill Chizar (owner)/Steve Patience (restorer). Pete Lovely had owned motor 0718 since 1968, and from 1962 to 1968 it was with Tracy Bird. In 1987 Bob Baker bought 0718 from Chizar and aldo bought 0718 from Lovely, trading him 0750 plus cash. I don't know how you have motor 0718 at the factory in the early 60's, or how the factory would swap a wet sump and a dry sump TR motor.

Best regards,

Jay D. Felter

 

Andrew...Paul Skett is quoting from a Doug Nye post from another site about a car he (Doug nor Paul) never saw....OK??

Kinda like the previously posted Max Wakefied Email confessing to swapping the Old man Alegretti hammered body panels........after they were Sold to Jim G.

 

Thank you Wayne..for that translation of Doug Nye English into good ol' American that Speedy can understand!!


.. and now back to our story......

 

I'll say this right now, against his views I offer the opposite, for myself:

Those enthusiasts that successfully negotiate the twists and turns thru registration channels to release a pure race car onto the streets LEGALLY have accomplished the HIGHEST end use of the vehicle........LOL!

Just look out for overheating in rush hour traffic........

 

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

 

How does he know how Jim drives thru upstate NY late at night?

I'll bet he's worn the tires evenly edge to edge...I'll report back first hand after the FFQC.......

 

Jay:

I was heavily involved with Bob in the Ferraris. That is the story we were given @ time of trade. It was cash + buy Golf Cabrio + 0750 fresh rebuild for clapped out 0718, IIRC. But, it was correct motor. Again, 0750 was with 0718TR when it was acquired via a multi-car deal. I heard from multiple sources that they were swapped @ factory, and there is not much different between a dry sump and a wet sump looking @ blocks. Also, 0768 was NOT dry sump in 59, and was converted about the time Von Neumann bought it. So, since VN had hands on most likely 0718, possibly remains of 0750, and 0768, I figured the swap may have happened there as well.

Ancillaries were not routinely sent with the shortblocks, so swap was plausible in my eyes. No experts at the time proffered a different story, so WFK. 20 years and EtOH can make experts out of everyone

FWIW, I may be full of crap
Lee

 

And the reason you did not have a hard time is the history of the car is completely known.

Again my 'continuous history' debate/angle is falling on death ears.

It does not matter what chassis, what components ... nothing physically has to be the same as it left the factory ... quite simply if the history and thus modifications are 100% known for the cars whole life then the car is 100% indisputable the same car.

Thus Jim needs to fill in the blanks!.

Pete

 

Pete, I hear and understand. The history was NOT well documented in the D's case, as these were old crap to most people. Few gave a damn about VIN's, engines, etc. The peril comes as Doug Nye stated, when people try to sell them, or when provenance is challenged, ie the engine in my response to Jay. Stories from 20 years ago about events from 40 yrs ago now help determine the value of cars. I truly believe that a repaired chassis is preferable to a reconstructed one, but that did not always happen. A certain 250TR comes to mind here as well, but that would truly hijack this thread. Or a certain burned 250LM (I like your avatar) as well.

Lee

 

Oh, then chassis numbers become important ... but impossible in Jim's case, thus he has no choice but to go the history route.

Also agree that a repaired chassis is preferable for historic reasons ... maybe not for performance reasons (ie. Formula Ford chassis go soft with age ... assume Ferrari spaceframes do too).

And yes I know some of the burnt LM story ... some very stupid things happened to that car

Pete

 

Doug

Tosser? When my wife agreed to marry me 33 years ago it was on the condition that I would no longer climb into thin air, pilot aerobatic gliders, race motor cars or fly helicopters through jungles where people tried to shoot you down with AK47's. In spite of that I've managed to have a bit of fun and have driven super, sports, Le Mans, classic, and Can Am cars over 500,000 miles in rain, sleet, and snow, (I wonder how many others have driven a MK-IK in the snow).
Although I wasn't racing at the time I also managed to catch Jim Hall who was driving his "Sucker Can Am" in the rain even though he had a 30 second head start. Perhaps that's why Charles invited me back.

I'm sorry you were unable to find my car. (It was displayed between the Ferrari and Rolex tents on sat. at Luguna, parked next to 0856 on the lawn at Quail on Tuesday, and in the pits at Luguna on Mon. and Wed.

Quite a number did manage to inspect it including Dick Merritt, Marcel Massini, and most interestingly for me Wayne Sparling who up until last Tuesday I'd never met or talked to.

Wayne as you know was there when 0846 crashed at the Targa in 67. He was also there on that cold and rainy night in December 67 when 0846 was converted as per the Technical Build Sheets to accept a 237 engine. He was also there when 0846 tested in early Jan. at Daytona and later when it took the Checkered Flag with it's sisters as well as when 0846 raced through the world in 66 and 67 as a member of it's crew.

He remembered the Targa crash quite well. He told me and many others who were standing around my car at Quail that not only had the chassis of 0846 been damaged as I have described it in the 104+ pages I sent you but that HE HAD PERSONALLY REPAIRED THAT DAMAGE WITH BRAZING AND THAT THAT REPAIR AND MANY OTHER DETAILS OF 0846'S CHASSIS WERE KNOWN AND PERSONALLY DONE BY HIM. HE INSPECTED THE TUBE OF MY CHASSIS THAT HAD BEEN DAMAGED AND REPAIRED, RAN HIS FINGER ALONG THE BOWED, BRAISED AND REPAIRED TUBE AND STATED THAT HE HAD MADE THAT REPAIR AND FROM HIS PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE MY CHASSIS EXCEPT OF COURSE FOR THE SECTION THAT BURNED AT LE MANS IS 67 WAS 0846.

Later in the day Dick Merritt commented: "If Wayne says that's the chassis then that's the chassis."

Wayne also cleared up a few other mysteries. The 593 box in 0846 was used as the mule for the 603 box and 0846 WAS tested with this box in Jan. 67 at Daytona until the 603 was ready. He remembered that they received and installed the 603 type box before the race and that the 593 was prone to failure at the point of linkage/box juncture.
He also said a very interesting thing that I certainly never knew before. At certain tracks where there were very long laps they ran a 3 Liter engine in the P4. He pointed out that gas mileage was more important than power. An extra lap or two, enabled by better gas mileage on a very long track could mean minutes over the course of a race at Nuerburgring or Spa. He said that Forghieri developed and had cast a very
limited number of " blocks that could run either as 3 or 4 liter. Remember according to Ferrari the 246 (second alliteration of the F1 block) was "Derived" from the 237. I believe that explains the curved casting rib vs. straight casting rib and why I was able to correct my engine without sandwich plates. Wayne also remembered that at different races he used different oil radiators in the P4's and that the one in my car and the one in 0856, which at the time Wayne inspected both of them were side by side on the lawn at Quail, were both correct depending on the race.

As an aside he confirmed that the damage on 0856 caused when it backed into the wall and the repair to that sheet metal was exactly as he remembered it. 0856's sheet metal on the lawn at Quail is original and the hammer/repair marks are quite visible as well.

If anyone is interested my cars 0846, J6, SL71-32, and 002C will all be in the pits at the Fall Historic races at Lime Rock over Labor Day weekend and 0846 will also be at the 100th anniversary of the Targa Florio next June as well.

Best
James

 

*golf clapping for Napolis*


Welcome back from travels Jim, been watching thru the Fchat lens and you were looking sharp!

Checking in to make sure the FFQC was still on the calendar???

Will mail response to the package. Very thrilled and excited to be included.

Speedy308
Amongst piles of wheels and mufflers......

 

Drat!

The Art Car is booked Labor Day, with Wayne the Train Hancock and Jim Lauderdale....can't back out now.......