575 block in all its glory | FerrariChat

575 block in all its glory

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by PAUL500, Oct 14, 2017.

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  1. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    #1 PAUL500, Oct 14, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  2. masinari

    masinari Karting

    Jun 30, 2005
    155
    Manhattan; California; Italy; Shanghai
    Full Name:
    Matthew Asinari DSM
    Beautiful, Thank you. Please share more photos and tell us what you are working on. :)
     
  3. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    The engine is for a Ferrari project of mine, it came out of a salvage car, and as we did not know its maintenance history we decided to tear it down and inspect every component.

    The good news is that all mechanical components are well within factory specs, so its a case of replace anything rubber or plastic, change out all the bearings/rings and uprate where available.

    Its going to be rebuilt to 612 spec then have the ecu software upgraded as well, and coupled with a less restrictive exhaust system I am hoping for upwards of 600 bhp.

    I am happy to use this thread as a build one for the engine if anyone is interested :)

    I will add pics as and when components are refurbished and ready to be reassembled.

    The heads are next.
     
    Makuono and F456M like this.
  4. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2014
    4,252
    Eastdown
    Full Name:
    Darius
    Even inside, a Ferrari is art..
     
  5. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,294
    socal
    What are you going to put this in. Have you read about John's cribb's unfinished 6.0L 550 engine? I would also check in with him since he has gone through a bunch of stuff like sourcing head studs and improved bearings etc. I hope to see his motor running in his car one day before I die. So come on John. We need a shake down at CoTA for that beast.
     
    F456M likes this.
  6. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3

    You're right Carl. I just need to find time & $$$ at the same time to finish. My new "part time" consulting gig has kept me busier post retirement than when I was working full time. I'm just about to finish up three months without a break here in North Africa.

    Apologies to the OP (Paul) for the thread drift......
     
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  7. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    Not a problem at all John, as its is very interesting to me :)

    I did not know about Johns motor so will do some reading up on it now.

    The car in question is down in the special projects section at the bottom of this site.
     
  8. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,986
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Paul- We know exactly how the Superamerica was hot rodded to make 540 hp, but have not seen anything on the 612 to tell how they got to 540 hp. They moved the intake runner actuator, changed the intake plenum cover (late 575M intake manifold castings were changed to match the 612), but other than the ECUs, we are not aware of other changes. Can you tell us what changes you will make to bring the engine up to 612 standards?
     
  9. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    Mine has the late inlet casting, but I plan to run it back to front in my application anyway so that the horsie can be seen in the engine bay through the perspex. From what I have been able to ascertain so far the increase is mainly via software updates in the ecu, as most of the components carry the same part numbers between the engine models.

    The exhaust system is quite restrictive, mine being mid mounted we have the space to use a better flowing system which will provide a few more ponies as well. Until its set up and on the dyno then its all guesswork though.

    My main experience is in the 4 cylinder turbocharged YB cosworth engine, and it is clear that the 575 engine is similarly race derived in design, with a set of lower compression pistons this engine would take to turbocharging very well, has anyone ever attempted such?

    Not my plan with this project as the gearbox will be the limiting factor.
     
  10. contadino

    contadino Karting

    Oct 18, 2016
    82
    ITALY
    Hello Paul,
    Where you will install this engine?
     
  11. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
  12. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,986
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    Terry H Phillips
    Paul- Thanks, all I have been able to find is that manifolding and ECUs were responsible for the gains, but the changes to the Superamerica engine (612 F133F engine preceded the Superamerica F133G engine) were quite extensive to get to 540 hp. Fabio's 6-1 headers raise hp quite a bit, especially if you have a shorter exhaust tract, and that is with 200 series cats.
     
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  13. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    The claimed changes versus the actual changes I have found are quite minimal.

    575/SA/612 all use the same crank, rods, pistons, liners, valves, camshafts and throttle bodies. The heads and block show different part numbers but given all of the above any differences would be minimal. in terms of hp gains. Looking at photos of the heads and blocks they are pretty much identical.

    The inlet and plenums are also the same volume, just a different colour hence a different part number.

    This just leaves the software in the ecu as the main contributor to the power increase.
     
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  14. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Paul- Not true on the Superamerica. Here are the changes Ferrari made, including shaving the block, sinking the exhaust valves via different valve seat angles, and shorter exhaust valves. Cams were advanced 7 degrees, too, even though duration was not changed. Intake runner sizes were increased, too. So the SA has a different block (from the same casting), different cams marked for the advance, different heads (from the same casting), different exhaust valves, and different intake manifolds. Hot rodded compared to the 575M and 612 engines. These are all tricks you can use to get more hp out of your engine.
     
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  15. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    All the parts I listed as being the same have the same part numbers if you care to look. Slight changes to casting have little impact when the reciprocating items remain the same or essentially the same.

    I would hardly call any of those above hotrodding.

    Don't believe everything you read.

    I had a look over the inlet manifold today, the casting is siamesed so that it can be used with both a front of engine mounted actuator and a rear one.

    I am happy to carry on as I am with physical items in my possession rather than relying on marketing blurb.
     
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  16. Makuono

    Makuono Formula Junior
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    Feb 15, 2014
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    Ricardo
    Terry,

    So, as per the document you posted (thank you for that), the Moronic 7.1.1 was maintained from the E to G F133 interaction.

    I remember you mentioning something about the improvement of electronics on the F133H (was this the last one?) - to Motronic 7.3.2. I believe? Could this be the only change?

    Theoretically, this would allow Paul to use the 7.3.2, maybe?

    Thank you.

    Ricardo
     
  17. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    Ricardo, I already have a pair of 612 ecu and they match the pin outs for the 575 engine wiring harnesses I also have, this is where the real gains will be made, along with better flowing exhaust systems :)
     
  18. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Ricardo- Affirmative, the F133H had Motronic 7.3.2, as did later (Fall 2007) 599s. Not sure what other changes were made to the F133H engine since those parts catalogs migrated to MODIS.

    Paul- Sounds like you do not have a Superamerica parts catalog, which highlights all the parts changes made from the 575M to the Superamerica. Shaving blocks, shortening exhaust valves by changing valve guide angles, and advancing cam timing are all hot rod tricks. The two documents above come from Ferrari's Superamerica WSM, which I believe.
     
  19. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    I simply use the eurospares website which cross references all part number across the entire Ferrari range, and it confirms what I have stated, all those parts are common to the 3 engines, exact same part numbers therefore exact same parts. You cannot get clearer than that.

    I would call any of those differences listed as merely evolutionary tweaks which would only release a few bhp, the big numbers come from software updates in the engine management ecu.

    Regardless, the proof of the pudding will come from the dyno, so we shall see.
     
  20. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Terry H Phillips
    Paul- Bad news about that is anybody can use that site and the crankcase, cams, exhaust valves and heads all have completely different part numbers from the 575M to the Superamerica because they are indeed completely different parts as Ferrari documented above. Are you just trying to BS us, or what? There are common parts between all three engine types, F133E, F133F, and F133G: intake valves, crankshaft, pistons, for instance, but the parts above make for a significantly different engine from the 575M or 612.

    You remind me of the guy who had a 550 transaxle side by side with a 575M transaxle and swore to us they were identical because the cases were identical. Not even close internally.
     
  21. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    Why are you prattling on about the SuperAmerica when I am rebuilding it to 612 spec?

    Can you just go back to reading your books and let the people who actually do things for real get on with it.
     
  22. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    Paul- No sweat, just stop posting bad postulations about engines about which you obviously know nothing. Just because you have some hardware does not make you an F133 expert, just like me with my tech data does not make me an expert. I thought I might be able to give you some info that you could use, but since you know it all, a waste of my time.
     
  23. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    If I need any of "your" information I will simply go on google and find it in the same places you do. I knew as soon as you started posting on this thread it would be a thinly veiled attempt yet again to big yourself up and have a pop at me.

    Right, now that the font of all knowledge has departed, hopefully for good, then lets get this thread back on track for those are genuinely interested in the rebuild of this engine.

    Here is where most of those extra 612 Cavallo's are stabled for my build, and there is room inside for quite a few more as well.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  24. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    Paul- No, I wanted to know if you had discovered how Ferrari increased hp to 540 on the 612. Your solution was just to plug in 612 DMEs, which did not answer that one. Then you started mouthing off nonsense on F133 commonality. As usual, you manage to be a thoroughly unpleasant person. Good luck with your Google searches, if that is how you get most of your knowledge.
     
  25. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    Blah Blah Blah, don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.........
     

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