Delta Wing projections?

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by Bill Sawyer

The Ring is one race track and is, in its own way, an anachronism.

Back when Jim Hall debuted the high wing people questioned its value as well, but it helped usher in the aerodynamic age.

I readily admit that it was odd running the DW as a sports car, but I also think it created a great deal of interest in a sport that needs new fans to survive.

The ALMS has said they may run the DW later this year. Again, I have no inside knowledge.

We all have our opinions and I respect those who disagree with me. If we were all the same the world would be a very dull place.

You may think The Ring is an anachronism but more people attended the 24 Hours of Nurburgring this year than attended the 24 Hours of Le Mans this year and while a lot of manufactures mention their Ring times I've yet to see one tout their Le Man lap times.

Mentioning Jim's cars and the DW in the same discussion of innovation that worked and matters is silly. Jim's cars won races. The DW hasn't nor has it shown during it's recent race that it had any chance to. Once again before it was punted it was WAY back towards the back of the pack.

Some of the media tried to make the DW interesting but IMO the fans didn't think it was much more than a fleeting/freakish curiosity.

Cheers

[F1tommy]

Originally Posted by Napolis

Some of the media tried to make the DW interesting but IMO the fans didn't think it was much more than a fleeting/freakish curiosity.

Cheers

We hope it is a fleeting curiosity. To me it looks dangerous at high speed.

[Fast_ian]

Originally Posted by Napolis

You may think The Ring is an anachronism but more people attended the 24 Hours of Nurburgring this year than attended the 24 Hours of Le Mans this year and while a lot of manufactures mention their Ring times I've yet to see one tout their Le Man lap times.

+1

Further, those of us somewhat "in the know" realize the enormous challenge of running the 'Ring for 24 hours - Undoubtedly the toughest road racing challenge there is.

However, unfortunately, Le Mans is the *only* endurance race that matters to the great unwashed. Even Taxicab TV here in the States covered virtually all of it live - We had to jump thru some hoops to find coverage of the 'Ring.

Hopefully, the new regulations will spur you on, and an entry to Le Mans has got to make getting a big name sponsor possible - *Everyone*, even non race fans, knows Le Mans and your proven success, along with leading edge KERS has gotta make you attractive to someone, surely?.....

/hijack

Back somewhat on topic, I can argue this one both ways; The DW is certainly an anachronism in itself - But, at least they *tried* something a little different. Innovation should be applauded. OTOH, I agree that it seems slow and without any "practical" benefit to the wider world.

Cheers,
Ian

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by Fast_ian

+1

Further, those of us somewhat "in the know" realize the enormous challenge of running the 'Ring for 24 hours - Undoubtedly the toughest road racing challenge there is.

However, unfortunately, Le Mans is the *only* endurance race that matters to the great unwashed. Even Taxicab TV here in the States covered virtually all of it live - We had to jump thru some hoops to find coverage of the 'Ring.

Hopefully, the new regulations will spur you on, and an entry to Le Mans has got to make getting a big name sponsor possible - *Everyone*, even non race fans, knows Le Mans and your proven success, along with leading edge KERS has gotta make you attractive to someone, surely?.....

/hijack

Back somewhat on topic, I can argue this one both ways; The DW is certainly an anachronism in itself - But, at least they *tried* something a little different. Innovation should be applauded. OTOH, I agree that it seems slow and without any "practical" benefit to the wider world.

Cheers,
Ian

Le Mans used to have a 2 Liter Class and I agree that a small engine/lower weight class would be interesting, encourage innovation and have relevance to road cars.

[joker57676]

Even aside from its looks, the DW looked out of place at Le Mans. It was clearly out classed by the majority of cars. The concept didn't work. That doesn't mean it couldn't ever work, but in its current form, it is a little above a failure. I certainly appreciate the team trying something new and they have to be commended for their efforts.

With regard to weight and power, I would like to see Le Mans go to a smaller formula. Their current LMP1 cars look massive, especially with the shark fin deal. To me, the LMP2's looked the most like race cars and provided better racing. I wouldn't be disappointed with doing away with LMP1 and folding the 2014 engine regs into LMP2.


Mark

[Bill Sawyer]

I'm sure the Nurburgring 24 is exciting to watch, and I hope to attend the race some day. I'm not the least bit surprised that it attracts huge crowds.

The folks at the 'Ring have done a masterful job of building its mystique,and the auto makers have jumped on the bandwagon to the point where a fast lap at the 'Ring is the only accepted measure of performance for many people.

But the track is an anachronism because it is not safe and most major international sanctioning bodies quit racing there long ago. The ADAC is a national group and they apparently are willing to accept the risk of a potential tragedy.

What relevance does a fast lap of the 'Ring have in the real world? Not much in my way of thinking, but the excitement of the 'Ring sold a lot of cars, just as the DW brought new fans to Le Mans. I know several Americans who went to LM for the first time specifically to see the DW run.

Yes, the DW was slow, and it would be better suited as an Indy car. I don't want to see a full field of DWs at Indy, but I would support an equivalency formula that would allow it to run against other designs.

The DW is essentially a privateer effort. I doubt that they had a budget equal to even some LMP2 teams. Mighty Toyota put their best effort on the track, but they were unable to win in their first year. Should they quit? The DW hasn't been given a chance to win races yet, now has it? I think they did a great job just getting it on the track in the short time frame they were working with.

Running the DW at Le Mans may be silly, but some would say that producing B movies that had no chance of winning an Academy Award was silly also. Of course they would be wrong.

Just my opinion.

[Napolis]

Bill

I'm still not sure what you're trying to say. The DW would have NO chance at The Ring and The Ring is raced and tested at by many manufactures because it improves and sells road cars.

Le Mans is a different race and it's very cool but when the flag dropped the DW did poorly and proved nothing. Saying the DW was a "private effort" isn't true either. They had both Nissan and Michelin factory support which I very much doubt they paid for. Private racers pay for their engines and tires and the tires they get from Michelin are a lot different than the ones they sell to Privateer's.

The bottom line remains that those who predicted that the DW's performance at the 24 Hours of Le Mans would be underwhelming were correct.

[ktr6]

After getting to see the car in action I was glad to see someone trying something new/different/innovative. Even though the car was outclassed and retired early Im sure something was learned and can be applied to the future development of motorsports. I hope they get the chance to run again and improve on their first effort.

[texasmr2]

Originally Posted by ktr6

After getting to see the car in action I was glad to see someone trying something new/different/innovative. Even though the car was outclassed and retired early Im sure something was learned and can be applied to the future development of motorsports. I hope they get the chance to run again and improve on their first effort.

+1

[PSk]

Originally Posted by Napolis

Bill

The DW was slow. It has no relevance to road cars. The 2014 LMP rules cut to the chase.

Build something that goes fast around a race course on little fuel.

What lap time do you think the DW would run at the Ring? KERS is the future. The DW isn't.

You think it will ever race again anywhere or that any manufacturer will ever use it's configuration/design raison d'etre on a road car?

I don't.

+1. The concept was silly from day one, as motor racing is ALL about corner speed. I don't care what fancy dancy physics is involved that car will NEVER corner as fast as a car with a proper track front wheels, never. Thus a flawed and dangerous concept.

Why Nissan got involved amazes me?.
Pete

[tervuren]

Originally Posted by PSk

+1. The concept was silly from day one, as motor racing is ALL about corner speed. I don't care what fancy dancy physics is involved that car will NEVER corner as fast as a car with a proper track front wheels, never. Thus a flawed and dangerous concept.

Why Nissan got involved amazes me?.
Pete

They still say this about the Porsche 911 to...

[PSk]

Originally Posted by tervuren

They still say this about the Porsche 911 to...

Different things about weight location (which actually works perfectly on a race track). But last time I looked the 911 Porsche has a decent front wheel track. Outside front wheel does most of the work when cornering ... the DW does not have an outside front wheel.

Pete

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by PSk

+1. The concept was silly from day one, as motor racing is ALL about corner speed. I don't care what fancy dancy physics is involved that car will NEVER corner as fast as a car with a proper track front wheels, never. Thus a flawed and dangerous concept.

Why Nissan got involved amazes me?.
Pete

Ditto.

[BartonWorkman]

As interesting a technical exercise the DW is, it appears
to be more like a land speed record car than a traditional
sports car and seems little more than a novelty.

Just as Toyota learned in the late 90's and again this year,
the DW guys must have realized the monumental task of
using Le Mans as their first race.

The indication as to the DW's progress cane from
Bowlby himself when he was lamenting lack of spare
parts and if they had this part or that part, they would
have been ahead of the P2 cars.

If the funding from Nissan and Panoz was there, then
where were these magical parts?

As we saw whenever TV cut to the DW on the track, it
looked highly unstable under heavy braking and if it had
a genuine chance of outpacing the P2 cars, it seems Nissan
and Panoz certainly would have spent whatever the cost
to do it but they didn't.

What we didn't see (at least on the world feed) were
any on board shots so we could at least get a sense of
how hard the drivers were working in the cockpit.

So, predictably, the whole thing comes off looking like little
more than a branding exercise which Nissan got a lot of
play from and little else.

Reckon we'll see the DW in select ALMS races through the
year and hang around until the novelty wears off.

BHW

[PCA Hack]

As long as we're still piling on...

I don't buy the argument that the DW's "innovation" is to be applauded. How innovative is it when the DW doesn't do *anything* better than the other cars on track? What fruits of the DW will trickle down to the 2014 all out LMP assault? The Audi R10 was innovative - so much so that made a mockery of the other factory LMP efforts. The car was built like a tank, re-wrote the standard for LMP performance & made little more noise than your average sewing machine.

I have a hard believing that the DW somehow broke new ground when F1 has batteries of doctoral Ph.D aerodynamicists with bottomless budgets, CFD, model makers, wind tunnels & simulators working round the clock.

I also don't agree with an earlier statement that it takes a new concept like the DW to interest today's youth in automobiles or the non-racing fan in motorsports. Cars like the R18 are the most exotic vehicles on four wheels. The 458 make a damn sexy race car. The rear end of an RSR is something to behold. A C6R V8 shaking the ground and puking flames on the overrun is enough to get anyone's heart racing. If you want a sexy one-off to light your fire look no farther than the P 4/5 Comp. If it takes a car which doesn't resemble a car to pique your interest in cars then you're not a car guy.

I do however commend Bowlby for seeing his project come to life. Very few of us in life get to realize a creation of our own than we conceived, built and implemented. That is impressive and kudos to him. But in the world of motorsport it is nothing more than a vanity project.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by BartonWorkman

As interesting a technical exercise the DW is, it appears
to be more like a land speed record car than a traditional
sports car and seems little more than a novelty.

Just as Toyota learned in the late 90's and again this year,
the DW guys must have realized the monumental task of
using Le Mans as their first race.

The indication as to the DW's progress cane from
Bowlby himself when he was lamenting lack of spare
parts and if they had this part or that part, they would
have been ahead of the P2 cars.

If the funding from Nissan and Panoz was there, then
where were these magical parts?

As we saw whenever TV cut to the DW on the track, it
looked highly unstable under heavy braking and if it had
a genuine chance of outpacing the P2 cars, it seems Nissan
and Panoz certainly would have spent whatever the cost
to do it but they didn't.

What we didn't see (at least on the world feed) were
any on board shots so we could at least get a sense of
how hard the drivers were working in the cockpit.

So, predictably, the whole thing comes off looking like little
more than a branding exercise which Nissan got a lot of
play from and little else.

Reckon we'll see the DW in select ALMS races through the
year and hang around until the novelty wears off.

BHW

Good point about Braking instability. The DW's front tires total 8 inches of width. Other cars racing there had 24+.

The excuse of no spares is also silly. We got specific custom special parts made in hours, drove them through the night and had them mounted the next morning. There is a entire network of special parts deliverer's who stand by 24/7 to courier parts anywhere in the world at a moments notice. This is racing 101.

[Bill Sawyer]

Originally Posted by PCA Hack

As long as we're still piling on...

I don't buy the argument that the DW's "innovation" is to be applauded. How innovative is it when the DW doesn't do *anything* better than the other cars on track? What fruits of the DW will trickle down to the 2014 all out LMP assault? The Audi R10 was innovative - so much so that made a mockery of the other factory LMP efforts. The car was built like a tank, re-wrote the standard for LMP performance & made little more noise than your average sewing machine.

I have a hard believing that the DW somehow broke new ground when F1 has batteries of doctoral Ph.D aerodynamicists with bottomless budgets, CFD, model makers, wind tunnels & simulators working round the clock.

I also don't agree with an earlier statement that it takes a new concept like the DW to interest today's youth in automobiles or the non-racing fan in motorsports. Cars like the R18 are the most exotic vehicles on four wheels. The 458 make a damn sexy race car. The rear end of an RSR is something to behold. A C6R V8 shaking the ground and puking flames on the overrun is enough to get anyone's heart racing. If you want a sexy one-off to light your fire look no farther than the P 4/5 Comp. If it takes a car which doesn't resemble a car to pique your interest in cars then you're not a car guy.

I do however commend Bowlby for seeing his project come to life. Very few of us in life get to realize a creation of our own than we conceived, built and implemented. That is impressive and kudos to him. But in the world of motorsport it is nothing more than a vanity project.

Piling on indeed! Go for it, I can handle it.

You got one thing right. Most young people aren't car guys. Outside of Sebring and Petit Le Mans most sports car races in the US attract skimpy crowds. That's why I think innovation and technology is the way to their hearts. The boobs and bang ups aren't getting the job done.

The attributes of the 458, RSR and CSR you promote aren't doing the job either. And--not to pile on Jim too much because i admire what he's done--the P4/5 is a modern interpretation of a vintage car that should appeal primarily to people of a certain age. The designs coming from young designers at the Art Center and the Center of Creative Studies look nothing like P4/P5.

As for the DW not achieving anything, the lap times they achieved may not have pleased many here, but they were pretty strong for a car with only 300 horsepower. It also features Dan Gurney's BLAT technology which never got a fair shake from CART.

Enough said. Time will answer the question of its value.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by Bill Sawyer

Piling on indeed! Go for it, I can handle it.

You got one thing right. Most young people aren't car guys. Outside of Sebring and Petit Le Mans most sports car races in the US attract skimpy crowds. That's why I think innovation and technology is the way to their hearts. The boobs and bang ups aren't getting the job done.

The attributes of the 458, RSR and CSR you promote aren't doing the job either. And--not to pile on Jim too much because i admire what he's done--the P4/5 is a modern interpretation of a vintage car that should appeal primarily to people of a certain age. The designs coming from young designers at the Art Center and the Center of Creative Studies look nothing like P4/P5.

As for the DW not achieving anything, the lap times they achieved may not have pleased many here, but they were pretty strong for a car with only 300 horsepower. It also features Dan Gurney's BLAT technology which never got a fair shake from CART.

Enough said. Time will answer the question of its value.

Bill

Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina was designed by an Art Center Graduate. The age demographic of those who like and follow
P 4/5 Competizione on social media is Very Young.

[Bill Sawyer]

Originally Posted by Napolis

Bill

Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina was designed by an Art Center Graduate. The age demographic of those who like and follow
P 4/5 Competizione on social media is Very Young.

That's a good thing. Thanks for clarifying that.

[David Lind]

I can't for the life of me understand the outright hostility some are expressing toward the DW project. I realize it is different and, therefore, controversial, but the acidic tone of some posts is unwarranted. Who gives a rats ass if it relevant to road car technology? Is a DRS system relevant to road cars? How about giant rear wings and multi-planed front wings; are they relevant to road cars? How about V8 rear wheel drive "stock" cars? How about tires that last only 50 miles? Can anyone advise me of the relevance of cars that get 1.8 MPG while racing?

Bowlby had a radical concept that was built very rapidly and generated a lot of public interest for LeMans, Nissan, etc. It is another in a long line of potentially innovative racing concepts some of which work well and some of which do not. As auto enthusiasts, we should at least agree that innovation is worthy of admiration. Who has forgotten the Indy turbine cars, the Tyrell 6 wheeler, The Chaparral 2J, etc? Between them, they won exactly one race. While they didn't permanently change the face of motorsports, they certainly added to its historical landscape, and we are all better off for that. This web site being for car freaks, I am surprised that there isn't some consensus that the DW was at least worth trying. And I am shocked that so many car enthusiasts are so hostile toward Bowlby and the others.