Miura, the original supercar

[miurasv]

Originally Posted by pylon

Joe says:
Given the era in which it was built, and knowing Lamborghini's practices of the time, my money is on the fact that this car now exists as another P400 whose owner is completely unaware of that fact.

----------------
Cool! - I'm now taking offers for my P400 which *might* be the prototype but I am unaware if it is. Starting at, say, $1.5M - anyone? anyone?
:-) :-)

Please post pics of your car that MIGHT be the prototype. Thanks.

[joe sackey]

Originally Posted by pylon

Cool! - I'm now taking offers for my P400 which *might* be the prototype but I am unaware if it is. Starting at, say, $1.5M - anyone? anyone?
:-) :-)

I'll take it at $1.5m, so far as there is a cashier's check in the glove-box for $1.2m

Seriously though, to clarify my thinking: we have seen bits of a car (stamped) dispersed amongst several cars (fact) by the factory. So, with new bodywork, a fresh engine etc, only a chassis might remain. Who knows? And we know Miura chassis can easily be sectioned to the point that they are mostly replaced.

*All I'm saying is that I'm not buying the story that the prototype Miura was scrapped*

Bob's rather vague story that "a truck backed into it" is not enough for the car to be scrapped, and Bob's recollection has turned out to be notoriously inaccurate. In his defense, he is not a sentimental man, and simply put, could care less about the past. He has admitted several times to saying whatever a journalist needed to hear to get him off his back and close the topic.

The factory even went into their junkyard behind the works and saved everything of importance. The 1965 Turin Salon Miura chassis & engine was supposedly also discarded, yet we found it intact in the Mediterranean.

And yes, as Steve suggested, please post pics of your fabulous P400, we love them all in this thread!

[joe sackey]

I am looking for another of these for a friend/client to round off his tool kit etc.

Any leads are very much appreciated.

[miurasv]

Originally Posted by jimmy
In their 30th anniversary edition this month, Classic & Sports Car claim in a more general context that the Daytona beats the Miura. Is that really the case? I guess it depends what aspect of the car you're talking about. It can't be about what goes round a track better. By most accounts, the Miura is a supercar and gave birth to the term. It broke new ground in so many ways. But is a Daytona a supercar? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by joe sackey

I think you make my point actually.

The Miura is not a track car, its a Supercar. For the road. And yes, its not about what goes around a a track faster. Its about a glorious shape & sound on the road, and in that regard nothing betters the Miura. But when the Miura has been used on the track in competition in the period, it has generally failed miserably. The fact that the Daytona, admittedly a non-Supercar, could have an off, yet still cruise round and catch & beat the Miura, says it all about the Miura's track prowess. Therefore, the notion that the Miura is a fabulous road car, but not a track car, is a sound one, and was the only point I was making. FWIW I'm on record for loving Miuras having owned 5 different Miura SVs over the last couple decades. Great road cars.

A Daytona not a supercar? I can't believe what you two have written here.

[joe sackey]

Originally Posted by miurasv

A Daytona not a supercar? I can't believe what you two have written here.

IMO I don't think it is.

I think its a front-engined production sports car which happens to be made by Ferrari, A Grand Tourer if you must qualify it, hence the name, 365 GTB/4.

The fact that it is not considered a Supercar by some does not mean it it not an excellent sports car, as its prowess against the Miura on the track proves.

[alberto]

Originally Posted by joe sackey

Well, lets get into this:

What accident did it have, when, where and to what extent? Any proof that this was not just another of Wallace's 'convenient' explanations?

The factory never thrashed a Miura within an inch of its life, and some even came back from the dead and were sprinkled with Sant Agata Holy Water!

They (the factory) re-used whatever they liked in combinations to suit them, stamped with whatever numbers met their fancy. Anyone who has done a serious study on Miura production knows this is fact. Ergo my suggestion that this car is still alive in one guise or another, and that is just an educated guess (as I have clarified), nothing more, but an educated guess consistent with the practices of Automobili Lamborghini SpA of the period as proven over & over.

Dunno where the engine is. You tell me. That's why I said in my earlier post: "Haven't a clue"....

If I have learned anything about that factory's practices of the era, it is to question everything, and I have been pretty consistent in that posture for many years. As the great TC Browne said, "There are lies, damned lies, and then there are automobile manufacturers statistics." I think he meant well for our collective peace of mind.

Ahh, no, you won't lure me into your trap, my friend. It's your theory to prove, not mine. You'll need to disprove the contemporary accounts of it being in an accident, for example, if that's what you are claiming.

For the record, I hope you are right and that it still exists. Good hunting.

Alberto

[joe sackey]

An interesting Miura.

[joe sackey]

Originally Posted by alberto

Ahh, no, you won't lure me into your trap, my friend. It's your theory to prove, not mine. You'll need to disprove the contemporary accounts of it being in an accident, for example, if that's what you are claiming.

For the record, I hope you are right and that it still exists. Good hunting.

Alberto

I'm now doubting the accident story, whereas years ago I previously went along with it. Your theory was that its "dead". However, I think it exists in one form or another

[joe sackey]

Jake Kaplan was the East Coast concessionaire.

[joe sackey]

Until March 1969 when Ferruccio ended the partnership.....

[miurasv]

Originally Posted by joe sackey

IMO I don't think it is.

I think its a front-engined production sports car which happens to be made by Ferrari, A Grand Tourer if you must qualify it, hence the name, 365 GTB/4.

The fact that it is not considered a Supercar by some does not mean it it not an excellent sports car, as its prowess against the Miura on the track proves.

The mid engined production sports car, the Boxer, was also a Grand Tourer then, hence the name 365 GT4 Berinetta Boxer. The fact that the Daytona had GT in its title or was a Gran Turismo does not disqualify it as a supercar. Why is being a 'production sports car' relevant? Wasn't a Miura or a Countach a production sports car?

Yes, the Daytona was an excellent sports car that was very probably the fastest car in the world, and made as its flagship car by the greatest sports and racing car manufacturer ever, Ferrari, with handling and looks to match and those facts alone qualify it as a supercar. We have seen its prowess on the track against the Miura, a supercar, so the Daytona is a superdupercar, lol.

Although a traditional front engine design, further qualification comes from its outstandingly beautiful, brutal, elegant shape that was as up to the minute as its sophisticated engine, that nothing surpassed, as well as its thoroughbred chassis, brakes and suspension. It still looks modern now, 45 years later. In its day it was the equivalent of an F12berlinetta which can't be a supercar either by your reasoning, as to qualify it must be mid engined as you said quoting LJK Setright, but have now removed, from your deleted and rewritten post. The Daytona was a supercar and anyone who says otherwise is just wrong, IMO.

[alberto]

Originally Posted by joe sackey

I'm now doubting the accident story, whereas years ago I previously went along with it. Your theory was that its "dead". However, I think it exists in one form or another

Nope, not my theory. It's what is reported by various accounts of its fate by others who know more about this than I do.

[joe sackey]

Originally Posted by alberto

Nope, not my theory. It's what is reported by various accounts of its fate by others who know more about this than I do.

Understood.

You're simply parroting others' theories. Miura, the original supercar Many a so-called Lamborghini myth has been dispelled over the decade or two by questioning them and doing a little research.

[joe sackey]

Remember, the term Supercar is a subjective and unofficial moniker given, so it means different things to different people. Poll 10 people on a list of Supercars and you will have a different list each time. Its a personal matter. The Daytona is not on my Supercar list, but it is on yours, and I respect that. That my criteria for Supercar is a bit different from that of someone else really is no big deal, is it? Clearly I am not the only one who does not have it on their list.

Originally Posted by miurasv

The mid engined production sports car, the Boxer, was also a Grand Tourer then, hence the name 365 GT4 Berinetta Boxer. The fact that the Daytona had GT in its title or was a Gran Turismo does not disqualify it as a supercar. Why is being a 'production sports car' relevant? Wasn't a Miura or a Countach a production sports car?

Yes, the Daytona was an excellent sports car that was very probably the fastest car in the world, and made as its flagship car by the greatest sports and racing car manufacturer ever, Ferrari, with handling and looks to match and those facts alone qualify it as a supercar. We have seen its prowess on the track against the Miura, a supercar, so the Daytona is a superdupercar, lol.

Although a traditional front engine design, further qualification comes from its outstandingly beautiful, brutal, elegant shape that was as up to the minute as its sophisticated engine, that nothing surpassed, as well as its thoroughbred chassis, brakes and suspension. It still looks modern now, 45 years later. In its day it was the equivalent of an F12berlinetta which can't be a supercar either by your reasoning, as to qualify it must be mid engined as you said quoting LJK Setright, but have now removed, from your deleted and rewritten post. The Daytona was a supercar and anyone who says otherwise is just wrong, IMO.

[miurasv]

Originally Posted by joe sackey

Remember, the term Supercar is a subjective and unofficial moniker given, so it means different things to different people. Poll 10 people on a list of Supercars and you will have a different list each time. Its a personal matter. The Daytona is not on my Supercar list, but it is on yours, and I respect that. That my criteria for Supercar is a bit different from that of someone else really is no big deal, is it? Clearly I am not the only one who does not have it on their list.

Yes, Joe the term Supercar is a subjective and unofficial moniker that means different things to different people. You have a great way with words by the way. Please excuse my enthusiasm for the Daytona. I seem to have got carried away in my post which is in no way an attack on you and was probably written because of my high regard and respect of your opinions and the vast information you freely share here. I delete and rewrite posts all the time as I don't like to see the edited footnote on the bottom. So please accept my apologies for the way my post may have come over and also my thanks.

[joe sackey]

Originally Posted by miurasv

Yes, Joe the term Supercar is a subjective and unofficial moniker that means different things to different people. You have a great way with words by the way. Please excuse my enthusiasm for the Daytona. I seem to have got carried away in my post which is in no way an attack on you and was probably written because of my high regard and respect of your opinions and the vast information you freely share here. I delete and rewrite posts all the time as I don't like to see the edited footnote on the bottom. So please accept my apologies for the way my post may have come over and also my thanks.

No worries!

By way of example, a primary client of mine has all 4 Ferrari Supercars (288 GTO/F40/F50/Enzo) plus the 599 GTO and the 365 GTB/4 Daytona. The latter 2 he considers cars which are super, but ask him about his Supercars and he will only wax lyrical about the first 4.

Whatever floats your boat...

[miurasv]

Originally Posted by joe sackey

No worries!

By way of example, a primary client of mine has all 4 Ferrari Supercars (288 GTO/F40/F50/Enzo) plus the 599 GTO and the 365 GTB/4 Daytona. The latter 2 he considers cars which are super, but ask him about his Supercars and he will only wax lyrical about the first 4.

Whatever floats your boat...

Your client's supercars are what I would call hypercars, a league initiated by the 288 GTO of which the cost was far greater than the Testarossa supercar. From memory the 288 was about £72,000 in 1984 and the Testarossa was a lot cheaper around £55,000???

[alberto]

Originally Posted by joe sackey

Understood.

You're simply parroting others' theories. Miura, the original supercar Many a so-called Lamborghini myth has been dispelled over the decade or two by questioning them and doing a little research.

Yup, I'm as guilty as you parroting that Eduardo Miura owned the Miura that was photographed at his ranch with Ferruccio.

[joe sackey]

Originally Posted by alberto

Yup, I'm as guilty as you parroting that Eduardo Miura owned the Miura that was photographed at his ranch with Ferruccio.

Sorry, Alberto, you have no clue what you are talking about. Don't flatter yourself.

Share what proves it wasn't.

Actually, I didn't parrot others theories on Don Miura and his Miura (s). I did my own research.

I got in touch personally with Werner Ben Heiderich in Madrid. I showed him the images I had, and he confirmed to me what I published. At least I took legitimate steps to reach my conclusion. If others think otherwise, that's entirely up to them.

Do a little research and find out what his personal relationship with Don Miura was. Then, if you are confident, why not publish your own findings rather than continue to parrot other's theories either way?

[joe sackey]

At the Le Mans Classic 2012, pic by RWP.