512tr timing belt help!

[twsii]

Does anyone have a good way of changing timing belts
At home I don't have all the correct tools that the manual calls
For. Can I put #1 cylinder at TDC and then remove the belts
And replace the new ones with out marking the cams? What
Would be a good way of locking the cams? Any information
Would be helpful.

[Spasso]

The "good" way is doing it the CORRECT way.
The engine comes out.
Follow the directions in the workshop manual, they were written that way for very good reasons.
This is not a "lock and swap" kind of car.
If you want it to run like it should then ALL FOUR CAMS NEED TO BE DEGREED with a wheel.
The valves need to be adjusted.
The tensioner bearings should be changed or they can eat your new belts..
The water pump should be rebuilt, (it's your only chance before the engine goes back in)

If you can't do this then find somebody who can.(that knows these cars)
You won't regret it.

BTW, there are a million timing belt threads in this section.

[Philwozza]

Originally Posted by Spasso

The "good" way is doing it the CORRECT way.
The engine comes out.
Follow the directions in the workshop manual, they were written that way for very good reasons.
This is not a "lock and swap" kind of car.
If you want it to run like it should then ALL FOUR CAMS NEED TO BE DEGREED with a wheel.
The valves need to be adjusted.
The tensioner bearings should be changed or they can eat your new belts..
The water pump should be rebuilt, (it's your only chance before the engine goes back in)

If you can't do this then find somebody who can.(that knows these cars)
You won't regret it.

BTW, there are a million timing belt threads in this section.

+1

[AHudson]

Originally Posted by Spasso

The "good" way is doing it the CORRECT way.
The engine comes out.
Follow the directions in the workshop manual, they were written that way for very good reasons.
This is not a "lock and swap" kind of car.
If you want it to run like it should then ALL FOUR CAMS NEED TO BE DEGREED with a wheel.
The valves need to be adjusted.
The tensioner bearings should be changed or they can eat your new belts..
The water pump should be rebuilt, (it's your only chance before the engine goes back in)

If you can't do this then find somebody who can.(that knows these cars)
You won't regret it.

BTW, there are a million timing belt threads in this section.

Possibly over a million.

[fastradio]

Oh boy. I guessing that the quote to do this job right just changed the joy of ownership forever. Please pass the popcorn, gents...

[Testacojones]

Originally Posted by fastradio

Oh boy. I guessing that the quote to do this job right just changed the joy of ownership forever. Please pass the popcorn, gents...

Belt change every five years is ok $$$, the problem is that everyone thinks a Whole Major Service needs to be done every five years.

[ants2au]

If the indexing was done correctly in the last belt change, as well as the valve gap,
and this time around the valve gaps are still correct, why would indexing the cams be required again?

Originally Posted by Testacojones

Belt change every five years is ok $$$, the problem is that everyone thinks a Whole Major Service needs to be done every five years.

[James_Woods]

It is much less expensive (and easier on the subconscious mind) to do this meticulously than to do it twice.

[Spasso]

Originally Posted by ants2au

If the indexing was done correctly in the last belt change, as well as the valve gap,
and this time around the valve gaps are still correct, why would indexing the cams be required again?

First of all I'm not an expert. (But I did sleep at a Holiday Express)

Maybe they don't need indexing, BUT HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THEY WERE CORRECT?

There are a couple of threads here where belt changes were done without degreeing the cams and the car did not run well or deliver full power.

One case in particular, the engine was dropped a second time and the cams were degreed which eliminated the running issues.

Lock and swaps have also been tried and when the new belts were installed the "marks" were off (in relation to the old belts).

Consider the loads the cam belts are under and how much they stretch between services.

There is a reason why seasoned Ferrari mechanics INSIST that the cams be degreed with every belt change.

[ants2au]

I didi state they were done the previous belt change (as in I was there). sorry if that wasnt clear.
Yes belts stretch, but when you indexed, they were new. and same this time.

Anyways, some people do, some dont. All good.

Originally Posted by Spasso

First of all I'm not an expert. (But I did sleep at a Holiday Express)

Maybe they don't need indexing, BUT HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THEY WERE CORRECT?

There are a couple of threads here where belt changes were done without degreeing the cams and the car did not run well or deliver full power.

One case in particular, the engine was dropped a second time and the cams were degreed which eliminated the running issues.

Lock and swaps have also been tried and when the new belts were installed the "marks" were off (in relation to the old belts).

Consider the loads the cam belts are under and how much they stretch between services.

There is a reason why seasoned Ferrari mechanics INSIST that the cams be degreed with every belt change.

[Steve Magnusson]

Originally Posted by ants2au

...but when you indexed, they were new. and same this time...

Even when new, there can be slight variations in the length of the belt (different manufacturer, same manufacturer but maybe belt made on new tooling set, same manufacturer but slight process change, etc.) -- but that's the only variable in the situation that you describe so that's the best case when not remeasuring (and would be a bigger factor on the long single belts of the 3.4L).

Even a single belt itself could have slight pitch variation over its length -- sort of a major hassle, but it would be interesting to see cam timing data measured for every cylinder in the same bank (rather than just 1) to see if variation in the belt or the cam grinding could be detected -- although it could be hard to read the tea leaves if the cam manufacturer intentionally took into account some amount of torsional deflection of the camshaft at a certain load ...

[carguy]

I strongly recommend at least verifying the cam positions with a degree wheel and dial indicator - even if you choose NOT to dial the cams to optimum. You need to know where they are. You can't be sure that the last person did the timing belt job right...their work might be adding on top of the error of the previous guy - and so on. I have nothing against changing cam belts by the "mark-n-match" method, but I always make a written record of the cam positions and valve clearances. If something's way out....you need to know and take appropriate action.

[ants2au]

Agreed

Originally Posted by carguy

I strongly recommend at least verifying the cam positions with a degree wheel and dial indicator - even if you choose NOT to dial the cams to optimum. You need to know where they are. You can't be sure that the last person did the timing belt job right...their work might be adding on top of the error of the previous guy - and so on. I have nothing against changing cam belts by the "mark-n-match" method, but I always make a written record of the cam positions and valve clearances. If something's way out....you need to know and take appropriate action.

[mikefb]

HI
If you are not sure how to do belts this is what i did
I Removed my 512TR engine out myself delivered engine to Ferrari Specialist i supplied all the parts
and he fitted new belts & tensioner bearing
Rebuilt water pump
Checked Valve clearence
And he delivered Engine back to me
MIKE FB

[Philwozza]

Originally Posted by mikefb

HI
If you are not sure how to do belts this is what i did
I Removed my 512TR engine out myself delivered engine to Ferrari Specialist i supplied all the parts
and he fitted new belts & tensioner bearing
Rebuilt water pump
Checked Valve clearence
And he delivered Engine back to me
MIKE FB

If you are not happy delving into the innards of the 512 engine then this is probably the best cost effective solution to belt replacement.

P

[Red Head Seeker]

Originally Posted by mikefb

HI
If you are not sure how to do belts this is what i did
I Removed my 512TR engine out myself delivered engine to Ferrari Specialist i supplied all the parts
and he fitted new belts & tensioner bearing
Rebuilt water pump
Checked Valve clearence
And he delivered Engine back to me
MIKE FB

Hello Mike; Can you relay the cost of this sevice?....Thanks, Mark

[mikefb]

HI Mark
The cost of service kit
Cam cover gaskets
And Water Pump kit was £319
Ferrari Specialist £270 which included him delivering engine back to me
plus cost of oils. As you can see if you can take Engine out yourself you can save a lot of money While engine was out i also repainted Plemum chambers and cam cover repainted Engine bay fitted all new POWERFLEX rear wishbone bushes fitted new Clutch had all my rear wishbone and springs powder coated. With me doing the rest of the work myself i have save myself a lot of money.
Regards Mike

[godabitibi]

I'd be curious to degree wheel a cam, start the engine and run it for a short time and recheck it. I bet you it's off. Anyone ever did that?

[Red Head Seeker]

Originally Posted by mikefb

HI Mark
The cost of service kit
Cam cover gaskets
And Water Pump kit was £319
Ferrari Specialist £270 which included him delivering engine back to me
plus cost of oils. As you can see if you can take Engine out yourself you can save a lot of money While engine was out i also repainted Plemum chambers and cam cover repainted Engine bay fitted all new POWERFLEX rear wishbone bushes fitted new Clutch had all my rear wishbone and springs powder coated. With me doing the rest of the work myself i have save myself a lot of money.
Regards Mike

Hello Mike; Appreciate your response. Sounds like a BARGAIN!!!...as shop rates in US are about $150.00- $180.00 an hour. I'm going to inquire at local shops what they would charge for the service/s you described....THANKS, Mark

[davehelms]

Originally Posted by godabitibi

I'd be curious to degree wheel a cam, start the engine and run it for a short time and recheck it. I bet you it's off. Anyone ever did that?

Depending on your definition of a short time... yes. I have been plotting belt wear/stretch/resulting cam timing change and studying all the variables that influence each for the last 25 years on all the models. The change you suspect is there, it is not linier but it has proven predictable over varying time periods.

What I thought would amount to a lot of wasted time and notebooks over the years, has finally been proven valuable in recent research. It actually proved one of my long held theories wrong and pointed me in an entirely different direction. All the years of data collection are finally starting to provide answers to questions I never knew I would have.