American car progress.

[boxerman]

A year ago bought a chevy equinox as a extra car. It is great, except that the diff ratio too tall and holds top gear too long, which means to move or sometimes maintain speed it has to drop down a gear, something GM forgot how to do smoothly ala TH350. Sometimes it almost feels like youre falling forward in the seat, so long is the delay in dropping a gear, all of which one can work around, because the v6 is smooth and the car not too expensive.

Last week I had a rented camaro SS. Itto was well built nd tight. You either ike thelook or n and frankly the outward vision is fine if you use mirrors. The car always had a sense of occasion when being driven, and that live feeling all good fun cars have. But the motor tranny combo really really sucked. Like the equinox the rear ratio felt way too tall, the engine finding top gear and lugging a cruising speeds and even on the highway. Throttle response was therefore muted, unless you dropped a gear just to speed up a bit. This was a problem for two reasons. the motor sounded like a rubber band vibrating in the wind, and the tranny as in the equinox was not a smooth downshifter. Maybe a manual is better. Thge steering though levaes a lot to be desired anyway. I hope the ZL1 is much much better, becauyse this is a charismatic car and could be good. I mean my 80 z28 sounded way better than this, and certainly had way better in gear throttle responce, and that was station wagon engine.

On to the Chrysler 300. What is with the infortainment screen. Where did the manufacturers get the idea we would rather operate the ac and radio from something flat which you cant see in the sun or with sunglasses. It would put me off buying the car period. The new motor is a gem, and while the tranny still loves to hold top gear, the whole package is smooth, such that in normal driving on the highway it was kore useable in terms of varying speeds than the 400hp camaro. The steering also felt way more linear and dierct than the camaro. Otherwise the 200c is a boat in the spirit od the lincoln town car, cushy with waay too much body lean.

So in short, they were all well built, but lacking in development/refinement compared to say a korean.

Put it this way, if the camaro had the steering and engine and tranny from a genesis V8 it really would be world class. It cant be that hard to make a decent tranny, or v8 motor. Come on GM, try and do the whole package, lets make something really good so we dont have to rely on a bit of patriotism to look the other way.

[kverges]

Well I love my 08 Z06 and 11 CTS-V Wagon, but both are manuals. I've never driven a traditional torque-converter auto that I liked and that includes the Genesis.

[boxerman]

Originally Posted by kverges

Well I love my 08 Z06 and 11 CTS-V Wagon, but both are manuals. I've never driven a traditional torque-converter auto that I liked and that includes the Genesis.

Yes you have two much better engines and stick. But the stock ss engine auto-tranny sucks. I mazes me that thye can put that out. The genesis is a paragon of virtue by comparison, and being relatively inexpensive indicates GM could do the same. It just amazes me that GM can happily put cars out that have such poor driveability. I understand the setup may help an epa fuel economy number, but others manage to retain decent driveability too. In fact I would go so far as to say, others would not put a car on the market that was so poorly resolved in the drivetrain area, except maybe ford. The tubo flex well and truly sucked in every way except design concept. If the koreans can do it properly why cant we.

[Carnut]

Lets pretend for one second that car companies only built cars for the lets say 5% of the public who really car about the stuff mention in this thread, or read car magazings, or are members of car forums, than all of this would matter. The sad truth my car loving friends is that 99% of the car buying public could care less. They buy cars to get them places, go shopping, take the kids to soccer practice. They are concerned with price, utility, and fuel consumption, and a few care about looks.

[ForzaV12]

The LS series of engines are considered by most to be some of the best powerplants ever built. There is a reason they are installed in everything from classics to supercars these days. They make massive reliable power and are lightweight and well packaged. The Koreans have nothing on us.
The Corvettes, Vseries cars, The ZL1, pick-ups,etc are all more than competitive in their market segments.

[Senna1994]

Originally Posted by ForzaV12

The LS series of engines are considered by most to be some of the best powerplants ever built. There is a reason they are installed in everything from classics to supercars these days. They make massive reliable power and are lightweight and well packaged. The Koreans have nothing on us.
The Corvettes, Vseries cars, The ZL1, pick-ups,etc are all more than competitive in their market segments.

+1

Although Hyundai and Kia have done a very good job on design, they still lack refinement when it comes to ride and handling compared to their Japanese counterparts.

[boxerman]

Originally Posted by ForzaV12

The LS series of engines are considered by most to be some of the best powerplants ever built. There is a reason they are installed in everything from classics to supercars these days. They make massive reliable power and are lightweight and well packaged. The Koreans have nothing on us.
The Corvettes, Vseries cars, The ZL1, pick-ups,etc are all more than competitive in their market segments.

The corvette is considered a boat anchor as far as inventory for a dealer is concerned, its build by modern standards is crappy.

The LS is installed in classics because it is relatively inexpensive, bolts right in where the previous small block went, is in keeping with the original powerplant etc. I can tell you that the ls3 in an auto camaro ss sounds like a rubber band vibrating in the wind. Maybe it puts out the power but its sound is muted and the tranny conspires to make it feel gutless unless screaming in a relatively narrow rev range. Go for a ride in a real V8 muscle car, the differece is stratling. And yes a modern should and can be quieter, but insipid is not the deired goal, nor false patriotism. We help the country and the industry by demanding decent stanbdards not accepting sub par in the name of the flag.

And yes even non ethusiasts can tell the difference and do care when it comes to driveability, hence the growth of the Jap[anese and BMW. I will bet most BMW drivers have no techinical clue about automotive dynamics, but they can tell the car feels better from its resolved steering to powerplant tranny smoothness. I hate toyota, their product blandness is everythingh I despise in a car. But thier motors are smooth, theor steering direct the brakes good. Yes the concept for toyota cars is bland bland bland, but the execution is great. The domestics have great concept, but still lack in execution, and there is no reason for this, its just not that complicated. Read Lutz's book. When he asked for good shutlines the people in charge said they could do it easily, they had never been asked.

Its about standards. cadillac used to be the standard of the world, even in some ways into the early 70's. Its simple just do ity right. The current crop are 50-70% of the way there, the know how and tech exists in the companies, what is missing?

I am not even dissing American cars, I bought the equinox after trying everything close from FJ cruiser to Rav to CRV, its just that foir a little better development and care the new crop could really be world class as opposed to almost, and it is probably not even a cost or engineering issue, more like a good enough attitude that still prevades detroit..

[kverges]

Ah, the self hate by Americans, of Americans. It deeply troubles me, actually, and it is also inexplicable to me.

I actually try to take pride in America and buy American . My wife and I own Lotus, Porsche, Lambo, Mini, Aston Martin, Caddy, Dodge, and Chevy and I really don't get the hate for things American.

We paid well north of $100K for the Porsche Turbo and hell yes, it is nicer than the Z06 (which cost more like $72K drive-out). But the Z06 is actually as quick on track, I like the NA V8 sound better, and it seems as solid as the Porsche to me and it is 3 1/2 years old.

The Lambo on the other hand creaks like an old barge due to front end ball joints and bushings that need replacement, and the Mini is a rattle-asoarus. The Lotus is a joke on fit, finish and materials but a complete blast to drive, so all is forgiven.

I think that if you look at JD Power and other surveys, you'll find that American cars rank as high as any of the others in initial build and reliability.

Now subjectively some prefer one or another, but wow the hate, venom and pejorative adjectives flung at American cars?

Me, I don't like BMW anymore because the cars are ridiculously heavy, most Japanese cars due to awkward styling and a transportation appliance emphasis, and all SUVs, as they have dreadful driving dynamics and can't tow a real race trailer so don't even have any utility in my mind. We won't permit SUVs on track in our driving school due to the significant rollover risk.

[ForzaV12]

Originally Posted by boxerman

The corvette is considered a boat anchor as far as inventory for a dealer is concerned, its build by modern standards is crappy.

The LS is installed in classics because it is relatively inexpensive, bolts right in where the previous small block went, is in keeping with the original powerplant etc. I can tell you that the ls3 in an auto camaro ss sounds like a rubber band vibrating in the wind. Maybe it puts out the power but its sound is muted and the tranny conspires to make it feel gutless unless screaming in a relatively narrow rev range. Go for a ride in a real V8 muscle car, the differece is stratling. And yes a modern should and can be quieter, but insipid is not the deired goal, nor false patriotism. We help the country and the industry by demanding decent stanbdards not accepting sub par in the name of the flag.

And yes even non ethusiasts can tell the difference and do care when it comes to driveability, hence the growth of the Jap[anese and BMW. I will bet most BMW drivers have no techinical clue about automotive dynamics, but they can tell the car feels better from its resolved steering to powerplant tranny smoothness. I hate toyota, their product blandness is everythingh I despise in a car. But thier motors are smooth, theor steering direct the brakes good. Yes the concept for toyota cars is bland bland bland, but the execution is great. The domestics have great concept, but still lack in execution, and there is no reason for this, its just not that complicated. Read Lutz's book. When he asked for good shutlines the people in charge said they could do it easily, they had never been asked.

Its about standards. cadillac used to be the standard of the world, even in some ways into the early 70's. Its simple just do ity right. The current crop are 50-70% of the way there, the know how and tech exists in the companies, what is missing?

I am not even dissing American cars, I bought the equinox after trying everything close from FJ cruiser to Rav to CRV, its just that foir a little better development and care the new crop could really be world class as opposed to almost, and it is probably not even a cost or engineering issue, more like a good enough attitude that still prevades detroit..

Your statements are as inaccurate as your proof reading.

[kverges]

Originally Posted by boxerman

The corvette is considered a boat anchor as far as inventory for a dealer is concerned, its build by modern standards is crappy.

The LS is installed in classics because it is relatively inexpensive, bolts right in where the previous small block went, is in keeping with the original powerplant etc. I can tell you that the ls3 in an auto camaro ss sounds like a rubber band vibrating in the wind. Maybe it puts out the power but its sound is muted and the tranny conspires to make it feel gutless unless screaming in a relatively narrow rev range. Go for a ride in a real V8 muscle car, the differece is stratling. And yes a modern should and can be quieter, but insipid is not the deired goal, nor false patriotism. We help the country and the industry by demanding decent stanbdards not accepting sub par in the name of the flag.

And yes even non ethusiasts can tell the difference and do care when it comes to driveability, hence the growth of the Jap[anese and BMW. I will bet most BMW drivers have no techinical clue about automotive dynamics, but they can tell the car feels better from its resolved steering to powerplant tranny smoothness. I hate toyota, their product blandness is everythingh I despise in a car. But thier motors are smooth, theor steering direct the brakes good. Yes the concept for toyota cars is bland bland bland, but the execution is great. The domestics have great concept, but still lack in execution, and there is no reason for this, its just not that complicated. Read Lutz's book. When he asked for good shutlines the people in charge said they could do it easily, they had never been asked.

Its about standards. cadillac used to be the standard of the world, even in some ways into the early 70's. Its simple just do ity right. The current crop are 50-70% of the way there, the know how and tech exists in the companies, what is missing?

I am not even dissing American cars, I bought the equinox after trying everything close from FJ cruiser to Rav to CRV, its just that foir a little better development and care the new crop could really be world class as opposed to almost, and it is probably not even a cost or engineering issue, more like a good enough attitude that still prevades detroit..

Actually to my eye you are dissing American cars. You call the Corvette "crappy" and expect an American car enthusiast to think you are all objective?

And honestly your choice of all that is American is an Equinox. Not that it is bad but man I can't stand SUVs as they simply cannot be driven in any way other than as a transportation appliance and frankly if you pick American in the SUV category I don't see how you can not like the American sports offerings. But then again you relied entirely on slushboxes to start your assessment, so I really doubt your bona fides in asessing any car.

[boxerman]

I think if you had bothered to read my posts, you would see that i was refering to cars I had rented, I clearly state that these cars were well built, and do state that maybe a manual with different engine may be better. It is not a matter of bona fides so much as commenting on what was on offer, which by the way is the type of tranny most consumers buy.

The point of my post is that GM in particular is still letting certain engine tranny combos out that are sub par. This may be to eel out fuel economy, but others are not so lacking, including a chrysler V6. In the case of my equinox, the dealer tech response to the herky jerky tranny was that A they all do it, and B that is Chevy engineering for you.

I will point out that GM itself is aware of this having discontinued the very same engine tranny combop on the cadillac SRX.

My commentary is not meant to reflect sportscars, more drivetran characteristics, and the surprise that automakers still put out products so poorly resolved, esp[ecialy when so many others do not.

As to build quality, most new GM products are great, but by GM's own sometimes variable standards the vette is poor, hence a major upgrade in materials shutlines etc for the C7. Nor is a zo6 cheap as you claim. They really list around 100k with any options. If dealers are selling them for 20%-30% less as you indicate you bought yours for, that would indicate their desireability in the market. Perhaps on smooth Texas roads a vette holds up, in the NE they quickly become rattletraps, the term used tupperware has been coined for 20K mi vettes.

The fact is the domestics, who had nearly the entire market, lost major market share through crappy and poorly resolved products. While there has been massive imporvement there are clearly vestiges of a poor attitude to product. Lutz who is no doubt pro detraoit says as much and more in his book. I do not think it is patriotic to accept less than the best, where our companies are capable of the best. Just as I do not accept grades that are below what a student is cpable of. If we accept mediocraty because we are "patriotic" we doom ourselvs to mediocraty.,

In the case of GM powertrains on auto cars, others frankly do it much better, and If you had read my post you would see that I lauded the once great TH 350. GM could have done much better, the fact they did not indicates they have a way to go in terms of attitude. Too tall rear end ratios, and tranny that hunt to top gear and stay there locked up, make even a powerful engine languid as in the case of the auto camaro SS, and this smacks of cheapness, just as the screen on so many cars(chrysler) does.

If we are talking LS series, truth be told while they are relatively light and powerful, they are nowhere near as good as the ford OHC V8s for sports cars, maybe they still are great for trucks and boats. The reason GM still goes with this is because they lack, funds and will for more truly modern powerplants, yes I know the BS story that they cost less to make are lighter and fit under a lower hood. But they lack smoothness/refinement, fuel economy/power for thier displacecement. Same attitude as they made crappy sawn off V8's into V6's for so many years. The price is market share particularily in the premium and near premium market to which they aspire.

Considder that cadillac aspires to compete, with what, no V8 and if they have one it is going to be upgraded 50's tech with a lousy tranny or a V6. Even HYundai can cover this ground. And yes I know about the supercharged V series, but that is one long in tooth car by now that sells in very small numbers, something to keep the flame alive, but that is it.

So yes if you took Chrysler steering, a Ford V8 and put it in a camaro we might have a superlative car. it's not too complicated to get right and GM shopuld be benchmarking.

In the case of the equinox, I am willing to bet that some different calibration would have it spot on. But to meet a false EPA target they screwed the calibration, all because by theoir own admission the equinox is very heavy for a car in its class. As it is, that is the car I chose, not for false patriotism, but because in its class it was truly the best built, best to drive and best value, albeit with the poorest fuel economy, and yes I am very proud of my American car, but that does no excuse its faults.

I will also be getting a ZL1 to go with my M3 ferrari Lotus etc, because it is charismatic and one of the greats.

In any event not all consumers are dumb, and they buy other vehicles than USA for a reason.

[kverges]

You really ought to proof a bit better. I am not great, but you make me look good. And I did "bother" to read the posts, your insult hurts my feelings. Are you calling me stupid or lazy or both?

I agree the domestics really ruined themselves in the 70s, 80s and into the 90s and many, like yourself, are very loathe to let that go. I personally would not own a domestic car from about 1973-1992 or so. The quality and performance were, shall I say, "unpatriotic," and I think there is plenty of blame from management to the assembly line.

By the mid 90s and to the present day, however, the domestics have caught up or surpassed the imports in many ways.

Now this sub-forum is entitled "American Muscle," not "American Rental car" or "American Transportation Appliance," so expect those who come here to be fans of domestic sports and performance vehicles and to take umbrage at assaults. Me, I own and/or have driven Corvette, Viper, Mustang, V-Series Cadillac, all of which are "American Muscle" to me. I even love my Dodge Diesel Dually for what it does, which is comfortably tow a 44 ft gooseneck race trailer and other big jobs.

If you are basing your experience on rental fleet vehicles and an automatic transmission SUV, then I don't think you have enough of a first-hand cross section to assess domestic cars and no first-hand data points to assess "American Muscle." Anecdotal "tupperware" comments from others don't count in my view. See, I read far enough to see "tupperware." My other reading did not catch your first-hand driving experience with any domestic cars other than rental cars and your SUV.

And the LS series engines are quitessential American Muscle. Sure, they are pushrod V-8s, but the LS7 and LS9 are truly amazing in their class and the LS-based C6.R engine has proven its mettle in ALMS and Le Mans. I am pretty sure the LS7 was the first and perhaps to this day only normally aspirated engine with over 500 hp and no gas guzzler tax on the car it goes in. Anyway, the whole point of the LS series is to provide cheaper horsepower to the American Consumer. And Kudos to ford for their amazing 444 hp 5.0 DOHC V-8 in the Mustang. An elegant, domestic achievement!

[boxerman]

Originally Posted by kverges

You really ought to proof a bit better. I am not great, but you make me look good. And I did "bother" to read the posts, your insult hurts my feelings. Are you calling me stupid or lazy or both?

I agree the domestics really ruined themselves in the 70s, 80s and into the 90s and many, like yourself, are very loathe to let that go. I personally would not own a domestic car from about 1973-1992 or so. The quality and performance were, shall I say, "unpatriotic," and I think there is plenty of blame from management to the assembly line.

By the mid 90s and to the present day, however, the domestics have caught up or surpassed the imports in many ways.

Now this sub-forum is entitled "American Muscle," not "American Rental car" or "American Transportation Appliance," so expect those who come here to be fans of domestic sports and performance vehicles and to take umbrage at assaults. Me, I own and/or have driven Corvette, Viper, Mustang, V-Series Cadillac, all of which are "American Muscle" to me. I even love my Dodge Diesel Dually for what it does, which is comfortably tow a 44 ft gooseneck race trailer and other big jobs.

If you are basing your experience on rental fleet vehicles and an automatic transmission SUV, then I don't think you have enough of a first-hand cross section to assess domestic cars and no first-hand data points to assess "American Muscle." Anecdotal "tupperware" comments from others don't count in my view. See, I read far enough to see "tupperware." My other reading did not catch your first-hand driving experience with any domestic cars other than rental cars and your SUV.

And the LS series engines are quitessential American Muscle. Sure, they are pushrod V-8s, but the LS7 and LS9 are truly amazing in their class and the LS-based C6.R engine has proven its mettle in ALMS and Le Mans. I am pretty sure the LS7 was the first and perhaps to this day only normally aspirated engine with over 500 hp and no gas guzzler tax on the car it goes in. Anyway, the whole point of the LS series is to provide cheaper horsepower to the American Consumer. And Kudos to ford for their amazing 444 hp 5.0 DOHC V-8 in the Mustang. An elegant, domestic achievement!

So basicaly we agree, to a point, but I do not think the domestics have surpassed other yet, they dont even think so, but yes they are getting closer. Not meaning to insult, but also dont put words in my mouth about patriotism.

As for the tupperware comment, it is from first hand multiple vette ownership, and spending a lot of time driving a friends zo6.. Same for my comments about small blocks, I have them in boats, and have owned some older cars with unfettered SB. I also happen to own a LS7 in crate, it is the ultimate small block, and one day I will build the right car for it, meanwhile, I wanted to buy the LS7 before they go extinct in a year or so. So a small block is quintessintialy american, a lotus is quintessentialy Uk as is Morgan, but those quintessential products have limited appeal.

Yes this is the American muscle section, and a Camaro SS auto is in theory part of that group.
The comparisons are valid to other american cars. GM can and should do better with tranny engine calibration. And if ford can do a cammer, so should GM be able to, that they dont implies some sort of lazyness. I read this year the SS has a 1le oprion, shorter rear end ratio etc, so I guess they reckognise the issue too.

My key point is a truly world class customer centric company would not sell products so heavily compromised, and the fact that others dont or overcome the necessity of these compromises indicates that GM ha a way to go, in product and mentality. BTW this is the same mentality that put a cheapo interior into a vette and only now 2012 puts decent seats into the vette, and a ZR1 is a 120k car.

Yes this is a muscle section, but most people do not buy msucle cars, and car companies survive and prosper on other products. If you feel my comments dont belong here, we can move them to another section, does their place of posting make them invalid.

Personaly I am waiting for Caddy to do a proper big car, with power, maybe it is a few years off. I cant tell you the pleasure I get when freinds get out their foreign cars/suv's into the equinox and then ask me what kind of car it is, because it is so nice. One reason for that impresion is it is solidly built, in fact, far better than my wife's GL450. Now we just need a good family of engines and tranny's.

BTW why did GM scrap the northstar?

In any event this is a good healthy debate. I also suggest reading car guys vs Bean counters, undoubtably biased, but lots of good things in there about corporate culture and really smart people ruining a great business. Yes I know unions had their hand too, but I was surprised the extent to which management and corporate structure had a hand.

[parkerfe]

Originally Posted by boxerman

So basicaly we agree, to a point, but I do not think the domestics have surpassed other yet, they dont even think so, but yes they are getting closer. Not meaning to insult, but also dont put words in my mouth about patriotism.

As for the tupperware comment, it is from first hand multiple vette ownership, and spending a lot of time driving a friends zo6.. Same for my comments about small blocks, I have them in boats, and have owned some older cars with unfettered SB. I also happen to own a LS7 in crate, it is the ultimate small block, and one day I will build the right car for it, meanwhile, I wanted to buy the LS7 before they go extinct in a year or so. So a small block is quintessintialy american, a lotus is quintessentialy Uk as is Morgan, but those quintessential products have limited appeal.

Yes this is the American muscle section, and a Camaro SS auto is in theory part of that group.
The comparisons are valid to other american cars. GM can and should do better with tranny engine calibration. And if ford can do a cammer, so should GM be able to, that they dont implies some sort of lazyness. I read this year the SS has a 1le oprion, shorter rear end ratio etc, so I guess they reckognise the issue too.

My key point is a truly world class customer centric company would not sell products so heavily compromised, and the fact that others dont or overcome the necessity of these compromises indicates that GM ha a way to go, in product and mentality. BTW this is the same mentality that put a cheapo interior into a vette and only now 2012 puts decent seats into the vette, and a ZR1 is a 120k car.

Yes this is a muscle section, but most people do not buy msucle cars, and car companies survive and prosper on other products. If you feel my comments dont belong here, we can move them to another section, does their place of posting make them invalid.

Personaly I am waiting for Caddy to do a proper big car, with power, maybe it is a few years off. I cant tell you the pleasure I get when freinds get out their foreign cars/suv's into the equinox and then ask me what kind of car it is, because it is so nice. One reason for that impresion is it is solidly built, in fact, far better than my wife's GL450. Now we just need a good family of engines and tranny's.

BTW why did GM scrap the northstar?

In any event this is a good healthy debate. I also suggest reading car guys vs Bean counters, undoubtably biased, but lots of good things in there about corporate culture and really smart people ruining a great business. Yes I know unions had their hand too, but I was surprised the extent to which management and corporate structure had a hand.

So you are taunting an Eqinox as an example of American quality? Last November, I went car shopping for my then soon to be 16 year old middle daughter. We test drove several small SUVs, including the RAV4, CRV, Tiguan, Eqinox, Rouge, Escape, and a few more. We both found the Tiquan to have a superior build quality, better ride and peppier performance. The only drawback so far is its low 20s mpg. I do understand that the Tiguan will soon be offered with a TDI engine which will put it in the mid 40s mpg range. FYI, my wife's 2011 GL350 Bluetech diesel is the best build SUVs I have ever seen, including her previous Q56, Suburban, Hummer and Landcruiser; and it is Made in the USA in Alabama.

[boxerman]

Hi Franklin

I am not taunting about the equinox, to me it is better than the others. BTW I found the tiguan to have a punishing ride, and the turbo was not great, interior materials seemd to be lessor than chevy, and for the price you got less. To me the USA in this class is the best, driveline calibration, fuel economy aside. But a tiguan TDI would be a game changer.

Yes the Gl is built, actualy assembled in the USA, but it is designed elsewhere. Once again maybe in smooth georgia roads it is rattle free, try one in the NE. Also the GL tranny is a gem, compare that to what chevy offers. We are on our second GL, the newer one is better built in terms of tightness, while the dash and other materials have been cheapened, and the command system is a serious joke in functionality. The japanese do this much better.

But compare a GL to a ford expedition, you can get a decently equipped GL for 10-15K more than a Expedition, yet in terms of quality, engineering, ride motor the GL is way way better than the price difference suggests.

In some ranges, equinox, the USA is close, others are far away. Yes when talking ford we still make big trucks F150 that are the best.

I think in the USA we are now building well made cars, some GM and ford inspirationaly designed, when it comes to engines and tranny's GM are still a long way off, and same can be said of a lot of fords.

In any event I am not sure your point, all your cars mentioned are foreign, even if assembled in US. And if we can assemble well in US there is no reason US manufacturers cannot design and build world beaters, yet they currently do not, with maybe one or two rare exceptions.

If detroit had its game on, then Lexus would be a caddy, BMW a lincoln etc. Chevy would be building something like an evo, the modern youth muscle car etc. And yes there are some great small US cars, ford focus from europe and the current GM crop from Korea.
It cannot be that hard to get a almost right product absolutely right, all the basic pieces are there, so what is wrong?

[kverges]

Originally Posted by boxerman

Personaly I am waiting for Caddy to do a proper big car

In any event this is a good healthy debate. I also suggest reading car guys vs Bean counters, undoubtably biased, but lots of good things in there about corporate culture and really smart people ruining a great business. Yes I know unions had their hand too, but I was surprised the extent to which management and corporate structure had a hand.

You don't like the CTS-V or just not big enough?

Management and corporate structure was bad, and the sell-off of Delco, etc, resulted in problems as well. But read Rivethead, too. I actually could not finish the book I was so sick and tired of Ben Hamper blaming management for his program of getting drunk on lunch breaks and teaming up with buddies to do each other's job (hastily) so the other could just not show up for work. His personal lack of work ethic was entirely "the man's" fault, according to Hamper.

Makes me sick if that mentality exists today and is part of GM's shareholder base.

[parkerfe]

Originally Posted by boxerman

Hi Franklin



In any event I am not sure your point, all your cars mentioned are foreign

Wow! I had thought that the Eqinox and Escape that I mentioned were made in the USA, or at least in North America?

[boxerman]

Originally Posted by kverges

You don't like the CTS-V or just not big enough?

Management and corporate structure was bad, and the sell-off of Delco, etc, resulted in problems as well. But read Rivethead, too. I actually could not finish the book I was so sick and tired of Ben Hamper blaming management for his program of getting drunk on lunch breaks and teaming up with buddies to do each other's job (hastily) so the other could just not show up for work. His personal lack of work ethic was entirely "the man's" fault, according to Hamper.

Makes me sick if that mentality exists today and is part of GM's shareholder base.

Hard to totaly change corporate culture, esp as much of corporations run by MBA's as opposed to engineers or product people, read Lutz's book.

I like the idea of the CTS-V, a great hotrod, esp the wagon, desperate times lead to some great products.. But hardly a mainstream product, and the whole CTS is getting long in tooth. One good car does not a brand make, let alone a whole multibrand car company, and I bet the auto is as crappy as the camaro. Cadillac can and should have a spread of products, that they dont says much.

[boxerman]

Originally Posted by parkerfe

Wow! I had thought that the Eqinox and Escape that I mentioned were made in the USA, or at least in North America?

Yes but you dont own these cars, you own the foreign ones. Which is no sin, let the domestics make something equaly appealing.

[Zack]

For enthusiasts, it's about handling and throttle response, first, then aesthetics and ergonomics and utility.
For non-enthusiasts, it's about utility and aesthetics first, performance second.

Safety is in there too, somewhere, to some extent.

And it's all wrapped up in price point, first, last, and at all points in between.

There are also other intangibles like how persuasive or crooked the salesperson is, etc., how impulsive the decision, how necessary the purchase, who is influencing the decision, state of mind at time of purchase, etc., etc.

With so many factors, it's easy to muddle the thinking and "justify" your purchase at a conscious level when really what is driving it is one or more of the above, at a subconscious level.