BUYER BEWARE: 360 for sale in Phoenix! | FerrariChat

BUYER BEWARE: 360 for sale in Phoenix!

Discussion in '360/430' started by rob4092xx, Jul 15, 2012.

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  1. rob4092xx

    rob4092xx Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2010
    570
    Phoenix, AZ
    #1 rob4092xx, Jul 15, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2012
    I absolutely hate doing this. The last thing I want to do to anyone is slander anyone. However, I recently looked at a Ferrari for sale that is so misrepresented it is disgusting to me!

    Below is an ad for the car:

    http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/cto/3138464292.html

    What I observed on the car:

    The car had significant damage that has been repaired. The entire rear clip from the side windows back has been repaired and repainted. The repair work is the absolute worse I have seen on any car much less a Ferrari! The "bondo" has obvious sanding marks in it where it was never filled and finished before paint. The owner told me these marks were in the paint and could easily be "buffed" out. NO way! They are clearly sanding marks and can be felt by running your fingernail across them. You can clearly see, from as far as 10' away, that these are sanding marks as they go all different directions.

    Then, instead of replacing the side intake vent screen, they bent it back into shape. This resulted in mesh that is not perfectly square anymore. You can see how a screwdriver was used to try and make the mesh squares straight again. Unbelievable!

    In an e-mail about the car, the seller told me, "...paid $87K for the car not too long ago." Wrong! This car was for sale for $74k at C.J. Prestman Auto in Salt Lake City, for a very long time (years?). It was on EBay and a host of other advertisers. The seller bought the car from Prestman. At least Prestman Auto was honest in their ad and disclosed the damage. Here is a link to their ad listing the car at $74k and the damage:

    "Prestman Auto Salt Lake City Utah: 1999 Ferrari 360 Modena MODENA - $74,000"
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P5Rjs-MQw4[/ame]

    Here is another:

    http://identi.ca/notice/82867063

    Then, the seller lists the wheels as costing "6,000." Actually, they are F14 Forgestars that sell for $350 each. Here is a link:

    http://www.wheelstudio.com/view-wheel/forgestar-wheels/forgestar-f14

    Unfortunately, the CarFax is clean on the car. Here is the VIN: ZFFYR51A8X0118421

    I realize every seller has a right to sell his car as he wants. However, when the seller does not even remotely represent the car as it is, I believe it is reasonable to warn others. The last thing I want to see is some poor guy back east who can barely scratch together the money to buy his "first" Ferrari, purchase this one based upon the seller's representation of the car. The buyer cannot afford the $1000 ticket to fly out to Phoenix so he buys the car on the seller's word and has it shipped. What he gets is a damaged Ferrari with $1,400 wheels.

    Buyer beware on this one!
     
    Samiare likes this.
  2. diSCUDsted

    diSCUDsted Formula Junior

    Feb 23, 2010
    997
    ILLinois
    Nice looking out! Listing has since been removed though.
     
    Samiare likes this.
  3. Afonsolaw

    Afonsolaw Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2011
    1,908
    New jersey
    You did the rite thing! Buying a car is usualy such a stressfull experience and it shouldent be so! There is always someone who will buy the car... but just dont make any misleading representations its horrible at the same time everyone shold do their due diligence!!! Good job and good looking out for everyone on here!!!
     
    Samiare likes this.
  4. thoang

    thoang Formula 3
    Owner

    Apr 12, 2004
    1,990
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    Tuan Hoang
    Looks like the original ad was flagged for removal. Thanks for the heads up.
     
  5. Anx

    Anx Rookie

    Mar 16, 2012
    5
    Ok, so I feel that I need to post on here to clear some things up... I'm the previous owner of the car, the person whom rob4092xx came to check it out... I had a friend of mine (Gary) convince me that I should just sell it to someone instead of trading it in, and so I let him post it up on Craigslist. I only showed it to one person (we only listed it a few days before I traded it in), so I know this is who it was...

    It's actually pretty strange reading this post versus what actually happened. I don't have any horse in this race, the car is gone so I can say whatever I like about it. I purchased the car around the beginning of the year - my same friend Gary tracked it down for me, since he has owned multiple exotics I defer to his judgement on most car-things. The seller had said it has some cosmetic paint work done on the back, but the damage was minor enough and cosmetic and that there was no Carfax or Autocheck reported (note to anyone interested - you have to check BOTH, some accidents are only reported on one or the other, so if you just did one, you could miss something). Gary checked it out and said it was fine, so I flew up there, checked it out, bought it and drove it home. Throughout my ownership (1000+ miles) I didn't have any issue with it and thought it was a great car. After I purchased it I took it to Alex Traverso in Scottsdale to check out the car and spent the majority of the day going over everything - he drove it around, we put it up on the lift, he used the Ferrari ECU tool to check everything out, and he said the car looked great, very clean, that all the services had been done (which the previous owner had told me), and to enjoy it. We even scavenged around in his shop a bit and made sure all the screws on the underside matched because two of them didn't from whoever did the previous work.

    When Gary came over to my place and checked out the car in my garage, which has tons of florescent lighting (so basically any paint defect is pretty obvious) he pointed out that there was a nick in the back left and that you could see part of where they did the paint work in the back. While I love cars, I'm not a paint and bodywork expert, nor do I pretend to be - I took it to one of the best places to get exotic work done, Finishing Touch in Fountain Hills, and asked them. They said much the same thing Gary did, that it might be possible to wet-sand it to remove the imperfections. They also said there's always the chance that they could go down to the metal, at which point you'd need to repaint the back end. They quoted ~$200 for the wet sanding and fixing the nick, and if they had to redo the whole back end of the car it would be no more than $1800. Bottom line, getting a quote from a reputable place like Finishing Touch that's less than $5k on a Ferrari shows how minor it is.

    So, now we get to showing the car and this post specifically - this was a month ago, but my memory isn't that bad, and I remember things very differently than this post represents. There are some things that could just be misunderstandings, but there's other things that are just flat-out incorrect and misleading.

    First off, I never emailed the guy once, pretty much all the communications were with Gary, who anytime I heard him talking to anyone was clear that he wasn't the owner. I never told him what I paid for the car, and he met me so he knew most of his communications were not with the owner.

    Next, the wheels aren't F14 Forgestars - look in the youtube screenshot in the ad, and the link he provided, they don't even look remotely the same. As I said in the original ad they're iForged rims - I believe this is the model:

    http://www.iforged.com/v8/index.php?act=view_wheel&id=36

    I didn't put them on the car, they were like that when I purchased it - but I definitely think they gave it a much more modern feel than the stock ones. The previous owner told me they cost $8k, and from what I've seen of them I wouldn't be surprised - they're a special finish (not chrome, but a flat look, much nicer IMO).

    Finally, if the car was so bad, why did he try to trade his NSX or make a lowball offer? I actually got more in trade than he was offering from a dealer who knows these cars and had it fully inspected! He repeatedly told me what a 'nice' and 'up front' seller I was, and how the car looked 'great' (his words, not mine), but that he wanted one that was 'perfect'. I don't know if that's truly how he felt or if it was just him trying to negotiate the price lower.

    He also told me that he's literally flown out to buy several Ferrari's over the last year, only to show up and for them to be sold to someone else out from under him. It seems pretty strange to me that people would do that to anyone who had made a legitimate offer, but Gary also thought he was a reseller who's looking to just steal it and flip it, so then it makes more sense. It makes me suspect there's more to the story than was told, but who knows - he seemed like a nice and knowledgeable guy when I met him. However, he also said he's never owned a Ferrari before so who knows where his expertise about them comes from.

    The conspiracy theorist in me suspects he realized he missed a great deal and he's trying to use this post to try to taint the car and force the dealer to give him a good deal - especially considering that he could just delete or edit the post once he owned the car, effectively removing anything he caused. The whole mis-identification of the wheels really leads me to believe this is the case, because he either is deliberately misrepresenting the car or he's not nearly as competent at evaluating cars as he seemed (I mean, I'm no car wheel expert and it was pretty clear to me they were expensive). If he wasn't sure, why even bother talking about them? If the car is that terrible, why would anyone even care if the rims were $350 each or $2000 each?

    One final thought as a general point about Ferrari's, whether it's this one or any one, if you're scraping together the money to buy a Ferrari, you really should re-evaluate what you're doing. I've owned several Ferrari's over the years (along with other exotics), and they're not the kind of vehicle that anyone who has to scrape together money should buy. I'm not saying they're bad cars, but the TCO is much higher than a normal car - heck, pick the NSX he drives, it's a great car with way lower TCO than a Ferrari. The reason I picked this car over others is because it's in great shape and has low miles... I didn't buy it to have it sit in my garage, I bought it to be able to drive it around and have fun, and it served that purpose quite well. Only reason I sold it is because I bought a 2013 Ariel Atom, a car I've been wanting to get for a few years now.

    Anyway, that's my 2c on the subject.
     
  6. Gmaccormack

    Gmaccormack Formula Junior

    Nov 30, 2010
    763
    You got caught selling a turd and now are trying to save face.
     
    Samiare likes this.
  7. thoang

    thoang Formula 3
    Owner

    Apr 12, 2004
    1,990
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    Tuan Hoang
    Popcorn futures just went up. :D
     
    Samiare likes this.
  8. rob4092xx

    rob4092xx Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2010
    570
    Phoenix, AZ
    I got to say BULL**** to almost everything posted. The body work was pathetic...it wasn't close, it was pathetic and to say it could "be sanded out" is a horrific understatement.

    Regarding trading my NSX...the only talk about that occurred before I arrived and set eyes on the Ferrari.

    Low ball offer you say? Yup...I offerred mid-50's because I figured it would take considerable work to repair the repair.

    I apologize if I mis-represented the wheels. It is possible and I apolgize if I did so.

    Overall, the seller was a nice, professinal and friendly guy. The car was very nice except for the horrific body work.
     
  9. rob4092xx

    rob4092xx Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2010
    570
    Phoenix, AZ
  10. rob4092xx

    rob4092xx Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2010
    570
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posting the VIN:

    ZFFYR51A8X0118421
     
  11. Upshift

    Upshift Rookie

    Oct 6, 2005
    17
    Phoenix
    Full Name:
    Franz
    Begin forwarded message:

    From: [email protected]
    Date: December 31, 2012, 5:39:11 AM MST
    To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
    Subject: f-chat




    It's very interesting after reading this thread about my 360 that you and I have never met, yet you seem confident in your quest to undermine this car, even several months later. Even more interesting is that your "Buyer Beware" story was posted online, NOT after you looked at the car to warn others, but after you tried to buy it for yourself and didn't end up with it.

    I am the local distributor for the Ariel Atom, a race car essentially, that is sold for track-use only (although many owners do register their cars for road use). Anx, a multiple prior exotic car owner, and F-Chat member, purchased a new Atom 3 from my company, and I agreed to take his 360 on trade as partial payment for the Atom. Contrary to your story above, he signed the title over and I did own the car personally for half a year before just recently selling it to a new owner in a private party transaction (it's worth mentioning that the new owner happens to be very happy with the car, and it is the second Ferrari in his garage.)

    Having already sold the 360, I have nothing to gain by posting in here. However, in the interest of protecting the new owner's long-term investment, I have decided to address some of the minor paint/body issues that you so grossly exaggerated in your OP....

    Before I agreed to trade for this car I had a local factory-trained Lamborghini technician go through it from top to bottom looking for problematic areas that I wanted no part of. The car was on a lift with the underside removed and every square inch was scrutinized. I noticed a few various cosmetic items, such as the standard rock chips on the front bumper, two areas of cracking in the side rocker-panels, and some excessive orange peel in the clear-coat on the left-rear quarter panel, which indicated prior paintwork in the area. Next, I had a paint/body expert look at the car to see if it had been hit. His opinion was that it had not as there was no frame damage evident anywhere on the vehicle, or signs of bodywork cover-up. (Not to mention that there was also nothing showing on either Carfax or Autocheck reports). It looked more like the back quarter-panel had been painted at one point, due to a scratch or something cosmetic, and they decided to blend into the rear bumper and up into the roof so everything would be evenly matched. The clear had been applied on the heavy side, and in certain light it appeared to have an orange peel finish. It even took on a shrinking look in some areas. Being as anal as I am about cars, I decided that I wanted it to look as close to perfect as possible.

    I have an excellent paint and body contact (who happens to be one of the painters who used to shoot front bumpers at the local Ferrari dealership). I had him remove the front bumper and refinish/respray for rock chips. We also noticed some minor cracking starting to develop in small areas of the lower rocker panels (where they met up with the body) so I had him remove/refinish these as well. Lastly, the orange peel areas of the finish, as well as some clear-coat shrinkage over the LR quarter panel and "C-pllar" area (which you claimed was body putty that could never be repaired...lol!) went through an entire wet-sanding process. (which is exactly what was described to Anx while he was talking with Finishing Touch about the car- the local shop with the finest reputation for working on Ferraris). Approximately $2K later, I had the front bumper and both rocker panels back on the car with everything completely re-finished (instead of trying to save a buck by not removing them and just spot fixing the area). I also had the entire rear of the car (up into the C-pillars and roof) wet-sanded, buffed, and polished to remove the orange peel. For the final cosmetic repair I had the right-front three piece forged wheel disassembled and the lip completely re-machined and polished to rid the wheel of its unsightly curb rash. Finally, I had the car serviced with a fresh oil/filter change, brake fluid flush, and new O2 sensors.

    Was the car perfect when I received it? Absolutely not. There were a number of small cosmetic items that needed to be addressed before the car would be worth closer to a retail figure. Certainly not anything that Anx noticed or cared about during his ownership of the car either (nor 100% of the people I showed it to while driving it prior to doing the work). Am I just a slob who is not bothered by the details? Absolutely not. For eight years I owned and operated a high-end dealership in north Phoenix that sold over 1,300 Porsches, Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Astons, Bentleys, AMGs, etc.... My reputation for the accurate representation of vehicles is impeccable, and I still deal with a number of my former clients in helping them acquire and sell their high-end vehicles. In terms of body-work detail and craftsmanship, we built a $170,000 British supercar that has been featured on display in front of the SEMA show in Las Vegas, the Toyota Grand Prix at Long Beach, and at two different Barrett-Jackson events. This didn't happen repeatedly by BS-ing people and not sweating the details.

    My point is simply this: From what I've read in your posts about this car, received through your emails, and heard secondhand with regards to your interaction(s) with this car, you have done nothing more than try to grossly misrepresent this vehicle to everyone on the internet to somehow make up for the fact that you weren't able to buy it for your lowball price. (And why would you expect to end up with a red on tan 15K mile 360 with an offer in the low 50s?) The reality is, this was a really nice car to begin with. Now, after spending less than $2K on improvements, it's an outstanding car, which is exactly what I knew it would be when I originally agreed to trade for it.
     
  12. rob4092xx

    rob4092xx Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2010
    570
    Phoenix, AZ
    #12 rob4092xx, Dec 31, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
    I stand by everything I have written about this 360 (except the wheels). I had no motive but to let others understand what they would be getting should they decide to buy this 360 sight unseen and then ship it. Even the dealership who originally sold this 360 had the ethics to post the fact that it had been in an accident....something neither you or the person who sold it to you, beleived necessary to do. Then to deny this fact even though it had obviously been repaired (and very poorly done so) when I looked at it was appalling. As far as any discussion I had about purchasing/trading for this 360 is nothing more than hearsay as you were not in the picture at that time.

    If you don't agree that you failed to disclose the fact that it had been seriously damaged in an accident, just go back and read your "for sale" ad.

    If you don't agree that the dealer who originally sold it to the person you bought it from disclosed the fact it had been in an accident, go back and read it.

    This 360 was for sale on a salvage car website and bidding began at $25k. Below is only part of this ad.

    "This vehicle is placed in North Salt Lake, Utah. It was Normal Wear damaged. Are you looking for a salvage Ferrari All Models car or Ferrari All Models parts to restore your car in North Salt Lake, UT at a great price? You can buy this Ferrari vehicle at Utah online auction or through private treaty. You may purchase the car for thousands less then you normally pay and then restore it, keep it, dismantle for Ferrari parts or sell it for a profit. Save money on buying this salvage Ferrari All Models car!"

    Make: FERRARI

    Model: ALL MODELS

    Year: 1999

    Mileage: 12784

    Color: RED

    Vin: ZFFYR51A8X0118421

    Vehicle type: COUPE

    Title type: CLEAN TITLE

    Primary damage: NORMAL WEAR

    Condition: Salvage

    Price: 25250.00

    Location: NORTH SALT LAKE, UT, 84054, USA

    Search for salvage Salvage FERRARI ALL MODELS 3.6L 8 1999 repairable vehicle for sale in the FERRARI inventory for sale from Salvage Auto Auction. FERRARI ALL MODELS salvage and FERRARI ALL MODELS repairable cars, SUVs, motos, trucks, RVs, jet skis, boats and other...

    The information on a vehicle is given 'as is'. Please contact the seller for updating all the information, price and condition of the vehicle.

    It was also listed on another Salvaged car website:

    http://www.salvagecarforsale.info/auto/lot-1999_FERRARI_ALL+MODELS_27651131/c-1/g-27651131/

    Here is a link to your ad on Ebay. Even if the car was not in salvaged condition it was damaged. Nothing in it mentions any type of damage. (Disclaimer: I do not know if it actually was or wasn't ever salvaged as the damage didn't appear to be that severe to me).

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Stunning-360-F1-Newer-Clutch-Belt-Service-15K-mi-6K-wheels-NO-SALES-TAX-/121033995572?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item1c2e303534
     
  13. rob4092xx

    rob4092xx Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2010
    570
    Phoenix, AZ
    I feel compelled to repeat what I told you a while back when we discussed this.

    I have no intent to slander you or your car in any way. As I stated before, my intent was to let others know what I observed first hand and through researching the VIN via the Internet. There is nothing wrong with this.

    Everyone must perform their own due diligence before purchasing an automobile. Relying only on what one person says is not due diligence in my opinion. This was the intent of this Thread being titled; "Buyer Beware." It was never titled; "Dont' buy this car" or "The owner is a liar." Again, it was put out there only as one of hundreds of bits of information available for others to consider when looking at this car.
     
  14. ferraripete

    ferraripete F1 World Champ

    i personally love when a seller says, "i'm not a body man so i can
    t tell you if there has ever been any paint work."

    lol...most of these guys have cars that have paintwork that could not possibly be missed by anyone...body man or not. this seller pesonifies why buying sight unseen is such a risky proposition. i am sure the car was ok by someone's standard but to a ferrari guy?

    pcb
     
  15. rob4092xx

    rob4092xx Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2010
    570
    Phoenix, AZ
    Franz Forman:

    You say your reputation is "impeccable?" Go to this link and see what a buyer has to say about a purchase from you. In fact, this guy purchased a car from you "sight unseen," aa car you allegedly described aas "immaculate," and it turned out to be a mess.

    Funny thing is this guy titled his Thread, "DEALER WARNING." Kinda like my Thread titled, "Buyer Beware."

    Here is the post:

    http://mbworld.org/forums/clk55-amg-clk63-amg-w208-w209/251961-dealer-warning.html

    I purchased a car on Ebay from Forman Motorsport in AZ. Ad described the car as “immaculate”, etc. etc. They offered a PPI, but since I was out of state, I didn’t take (their town, their shops.) But since they had 100% + feedback, I took the chance and purchased: bad on me.

    At pick-up, the car was dusty on the inside, missing two mats (AMG), and had squared tires, but no drama on the drive home. Once home, I found interior blemishes (scratches/dents in the metal trim, worn/chipped off buttons, peeling leather), tint had bubbles / streaks, lip had two small cracks, and the hood emblem was broken/loose. No one big thing, but not what I would call “immaculate.”

    The local MB dealer inspected it:
    - missing the front fender liner
    - front rotors at 20%
    - pads at 5%

    $2700 in repairs

    We all know the trick of fishing worn parts out of a box and showing them to the customer in place of their own parts. But, based on the condition of the vehicle, it didn’t seem unusual for these parts to be worn: my sister treats her new cars like crap, and lives on a hill so goes through front brakes like crazy. Her cars show the same wear at the same age as this one.

    Over the next 1.5 months, I make many phone calls to Forman about the missing mats. They were pictured in the ad, so I expect to get them. I leave voicemails, get a hasty message with reassurances, but no mats. Finally a box arrives, and in it? Mats from a non-AMG Benz. WTF? That’s a shady used-car dealer stunt, not expected from “Luxury Performance Specialists” (as they call themselves.) I spend the next week trying to get in touch with anyone: salesman, VP, owner: nothing. Finally I get the salesman (Jarvis), who sullenly informs me that he sent me what mats he had, and he doesn’t know what else to tell me. He says he’s not going to buy a new set, so I’ll just have to wait until he can find some used mats. When I point out that his ad featured the mats, he says “Well, there are lots of things in ads that don’t come with a car. If there were a house in the ad, would you expect me to give you that too?”

    W T F?????

    So now I’m done. I had been waiting to give them eBay feedback, intending to make it positive if they came through with the mats, since technically the brakes were on me for not getting a PPI. But after the repeated unprofessional behavior of their representative, I gave them what they deserved: factual negative feedback.

    Later I learned that my man called the VP (Tim) and let him in on what happened. Tim apologized and said he would make things right: he called me today to tell me they were going to find me a mat at an “auction”, and I’d have it within a few weeks. That was good of him, but the damage had already been done by Jarvis: the feedback was in.

    So Tim calls me later, and he’s all fired up. He proceeds to YELL at me about how I’ve “torched” him on eBay for no reason. He claims the car was in perfect shape, and why didn’t I tell him about the brakes? Because if I can’t even get your dealership to provide a floor mat, do I really think you’re going to pay for a brake job after I’ve taken delivery? Cut to the end, he threatens that he doesn’t think he’s going to be able to do the right thing for me now (i.e. get me the mat.) I laugh and tell him to do whatever he feels he needs to, to which he throws a tantrum and slams the phone down, hanging up on me.

    Yes, I did have the right to a PPI, even if it was under questionable circumstances (their town, their shops.) I may have still bought the car, even with repairs needed. But the level of unprofessionalism and lack of service after the sale that they showed are completely unsat. With the money I saved buying from them, I could have bought here and gotten a smooth, quality transaction:

    You get what you pay for: bad on me.

    I just wanted to let people know my experience with this dealer, in case anyone was considering their inventory. Maybe they figured they could blow me off because I’m a woman, maybe they had a bad few months: TS.

    Read more: http://mbworld.org/forums/clk55-amg-clk63-amg-w208-w209/251961-dealer-warning.html#ixzz2Geemw6jV
     
  16. firefisher

    firefisher Karting

    Jan 15, 2010
    213
    New York
    Full Name:
    George
    #16 firefisher, Dec 31, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
    Rob,

    You did the right thing and disclosed a seller who in my opinion mislead his potential buyers. It sounds like the last seller tried to do the right thing and have any issues repaired which was a good thing. His biggest fault was not disclosing the salvage title. I find it sad that some where along the line the title was cleared of salvaged or some how it was washed of the salvage and came out clean to unsuspected buyers. Can happen from state to state.

    I used to sell cars (before carfax) and when I came across one that had issues I would bring it to the dealer auction and sell the car "as is" in the bay at the auction for cars with paper work, mechanical or body issues. The purchasers were other dealers looking to get cars cheaper and fix them. I never had anyone complain about my cars. I found it a lot easier to sleep at night knowing I did not rip someone off. I recently lost my Porsche gt3 to Sandy and I'm now in the market for a used F430. People like you Rob help people like me avoid these issues.
    Happy New Year
    George
     
  17. rob4092xx

    rob4092xx Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2010
    570
    Phoenix, AZ
    Very kind words George....thanks a million!
     
  18. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Nov 23, 2012
    16,047
    Orchard Park, NY
    Full Name:
    Dave Lelonek
    FYI, I spoke with Franz after the car had already sold. Nice guy and he told me all about the paint issues. I only skimmed this thread but I will say he was nice and open about detail with me
     
  19. Afonsolaw

    Afonsolaw Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2011
    1,908
    New jersey
    Thanks Rob you did the right thing
     
  20. Ingenere

    Ingenere F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 11, 2001
    6,336
    On the Limit
    Full Name:
    Dino
    I have to say that I have had nothing but positive experiences with Franz and his dealership.

    I have been buying and selling cars sight unseen for better that 25 years. I do my homework and play my cards. One man's idea of perfection is another man's pos. When I buy a used car, I fully expect...... a used car, and that I will probably be doing something to it, to bring it up to where I am happy. Any expectation more than that, and you will be setting yourself up for disappointment. You will also probably never actually end up buying a car, because EVERY one will have something.

    I had a guy 'sniffing' around my 348 for years. He moaned about this, and cried about that. At the base of it, he loved the car, but wouldn't pony up the money. He wanted to rip it, and it wasn't going to happen. Keep in mind that the car was a platinum winner in FCA concours, and he was still picking this and that.

    At the end of the day, I got good money for the car. The new owner and I are friends, and that guy is still carless.

    The car in question has clean Carfax and Autocheck. Its had some paintwork that may not be up to some people's liking. The OP claims it was in an accident. Is there proof? Body shop receipts? Was an inspection done? Frame checked? Paint meter, etc, etc. At the end of the day, if you don't like it, move on and buy something else, or continue to window shop.

    When you deal with the public in a retail setting, you can't please everyone.... even when you try your best. I would have no trouble doing business with Franz.
     
  21. rob4092xx

    rob4092xx Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2010
    570
    Phoenix, AZ
    Yes there was undeniable proof! Read my first post. The dealer who originally sold the car, C.J. Prestman in Salt Lake, disclosed this damage in his for sale ad. The person he sold it to then denied it. I have no bone to pick with Franz. I have never met him...all of my dealings were with the person who sold it to him. Franz then represented the car to me as never being damaged when I inquired about it via e-mail after he purchased it. It was only after I posted the original Thread that Franz began disclosing it. It was pretty hard to deny at that point.

     
  22. Upshift

    Upshift Rookie

    Oct 6, 2005
    17
    Phoenix
    Full Name:
    Franz
    First off, Ingenere I appreciate your kind words, thanks. You are certainly correct that you cannot please all people all the time. (In this case, the rule apparently even extends to those I’ve never met or even spoken to!) However, despite the “rule”, I definitely do what I can to please everyone and get them the information they want to know. And Daverocks, I appreciate your post as well. We did speak about this car, including the fact that it had prior paintwork. (A fact that the car’s new owner was also made aware of prior to purchasing it).

    I have absolutely nothing to hide about this Ferrari, or any other car that I represent, and I stand by the fact that this car was not a salvaged/rebuilt vehicle. If a client (or prospective client) asks me anything about a vehicle I will answer the question with as much knowledge as I have available. Period. If I don’t know the answer, I’ll admit to that too, and then do what I can to get one. But, rather than stay on the subject at hand, Rob, in a desperate smear attempt, pulls a "Politics 101" and does a Google search for my name to generate a random internet post from more than seven years ago from a disgruntled psychopath (more on this later*). Rob then goes on to claim that he is not out to slander me, and acknowledges that we have never met, nor even spoken on the phone about this car before. Truly amazing. (Let me reiterate- this entire post is about a car that Rob TRIED TO BUY just before it was traded to me). Just so we are clear on this Rob, “tried to buy” means that you went and looked at the car and made an offer to purchase said car. Your offer was not accepted because the owner decided to forgo the trouble and trade the car to me. At no point in time was the car below your standards enough that you went and looked at it and then decided to pass. So, let’s not waste any more time with you pretending the car was so horrible.

    *What Rob DIDN"T include from his cut and paste research on the Mercedes was the whole story, which can be summarized by this: Crazy lady comes down to my dealership IN PERSON to take delivery of a $30K Mercedes CLK- (one of the least expensive cars my dealership ever sold) and becomes upset after returning home that she didn't get the right floor-mats with her car. This led to other completely unfounded complaints. She called my finance director and was treated poorly over the phone. I apologized to her online and you can go read the rest of the story if you feel the need to. Bottom line, she flames us more than a month after buying a car she couldn’t afford. (A car that passed two different safety inspections and she picked up in person). She sold the car within 60 days after admitting online to financial troubles and has not been on MBWorld since. This was in 2005. Way to go Rob at “not trying to slander me or my car.” While I’m not proud of how she was treated by a former employee, thanks for searching all over the internet and proving my point about my reputation. After 1,300+ high-end automotive sales in 10 years totaling nearly $100 million, you found one complaint on the internet from seven years ago. I’ll put that customer satisfaction percentage up against any company's in any industry.

    I’ll close with this- it doesn’t matter where this 360 was originally for sale or what auction it may have sold through. This car was not a salvage/rebuilt vehicle. Nor did the underside or frame of the car reflect an accident history that we could detect even while the car was fully inspected on a lift. There is no way a salvage/rebuilt vehicle is going to pass an inspection from a qualified Italian car expert if it has been totaled in an accident. You simply cannot hide this. It doesn’t matter whether the car has a prior report in the computer or not. (This car showed no prior accident history, salvage history, or frame damage history in ANY background report). An inspection for damage WILL show if a car has previously been destroyed and rebuilt after in an accident. Can a vehicle be involved in an accident without showing up on CARFAX or Autocheck? Definitely. I have seen this before. (On two different occasions I have even seen CARFAX or Autocheck report accidents on cars that had never been in one, not a trace of paintwork. These companies are not mistake-proof, and that is why each company has an entire department just for disputes that arise. Did this 360 have prior paintwork? Absolutely, I have not disputed this since day one. I was the one responsible for part of it as I had the front bumper and both rocker panels removed and refinished to like-new standards. (The car should look as close to perfect in my opinion as possible).

    This is a great car and Rob knew it to begin with or he wouldn’t have made an offer to buy it.
     
  23. rob4092xx

    rob4092xx Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2010
    570
    Phoenix, AZ
    Let me repeat a few things and then I am done with this post.

    1. I never, ever, spoke with Franz so he has absolutely no idea if I made an offer or what was/wasn't discussed when I spoke to the person who later sold him this 360.

    2. I brought forward the dissatisfied Mercedes owner info only after Franz made repeated statements on F-Chat yesterday that; "My reputation for the accurate representation of vehicles is impeccable, and I still deal with a number of my former clients in helping them acquire and sell their high-end vehicles." Well, this didn't turn out to be true. Anyone can make a statement like this when defending themselves, but facts carry much more weight than words. I believed other F-Chat'rs should see Franz may have the ability to misrepresent the truth.

    3. I never, ever said the car was a salvage. I even made this disclaimer in my previous posts. I only provided links to salvage websites where the car was listed for sale before Franz purchased it. Others can determine for themselves if this should be cause for concern.

    4. Franz never admitted the car had been damaged until I posted the link to C.J. Prestman Auto Sales where their for sale ad fully disclosed that the car had been wrecked. Kudos to Prestman Auto!

    5. Yesterday Franz blamed the poor transaction with the Mercedes buyer on his salesperson for being rude. Today Franz called the Mercedes buyer a "Crazy Lady" and blamed her for the poor transaction. Which is it?

    6. I never "searched all over the Internet" for Franz's name. What I did do was perform due diligence when we spoke about the car to see what others had experienced while making a purchase from him. I goggled, "Franz Forman"....nothing else. The very first search result was titled "DEALER WARNING." This was the only search I did and the only result I had to read to determine I would not do business with him. If others do not believe this to be true, please google; Franz Forman. It is the first result and was enough to scare me away.

    Franz, the indisputable and well documented bottom line on the Internet is this:

    C.J. Prestman Auto listed the car last year on several websites with all damage disclosed. These ads are preserved on the Internet long after a car is sold.

    Your seller bought the car from Prestman. He denied the car had been wrecked when I spoke with him.

    I then "googled" the VIN. This is when I saw it had been previously wrecked per the Prestman for sale ad that was still on the Internet. I also saw it was listed for sale on several salvage car websites. This is information I simply cannot make up or embellish...i.e.: it is what it is and quite contrary to what you put in your for sale ad for the car. I walked once I saw the car had been wrecked and the seller denied it.

    You bought the car and listed it on several websites. I saw the car not realizing it was the same I had seen weeks earlier. When I contacted you, I got the VIN and googled it. Much to my surprise, it was the same car I had previously looked at.

    When I asked you if it had been wrecked, you said there had never been any damage to it anywhere.

    When I directed you to C.J. Prestman's previous for sale ads which disclosed the damage, you changed your story to "paint work only - a problem with the clearcoat"

    Based upon what had occurred, last thing I wanted was to see some F-Chat'r located across the country purchase this car sight unseen which you described as "immaculate." Therefore, I made my original post so others could see what I knew and then make their own opinions if they were considering your car.

    You followed up with a post yesterday that your reputation was "impeccable."

    I pointed out another transaction located on the Internet where a person purchased an "impeccable" car from you which turned out not to be "impeccable."

    Yesterday, you made a post and accepted responsibility for this unsatisfactory transaction and blamed part of it on your salesperson.

    Today you blame it on the "crazy lady" who bought the car and then posted her story on the Internet.

    There are a lot of inconsistencies in your stories at all levels. I suggest anyone who thinks otherwise simply go on the Internet and follow the same trail as I did. You will see everything I posted is dead-on accurate.

    MOST IMPORTANTLY, you will see no fellow F-Chat'r bought this car. Because of this, we will not see another unsatisfied customer Thread on F-Chat much like the one on the Mercedes Chatline. This makes me sleep better as I would expect the exact same thing if a fellow F-Chat'r discovered a misrepresented 360 for sale on the Internet.
     
  24. donho

    donho Karting

    Oct 11, 2006
    154
    Naples, FL
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Wow! I've read this thread with great interest. I have to say that Rob presented a fairly compelling closing argument. Still after reading Franz's responses, I wanted to give him the benefit of doubt.

    I thought I'd do some fact checking, so I went through the thread again. I found the Preston ad, and here's an excerpt:

    "Prestman Auto 2865 South State Street Salt Lake City UT 84115 (Map) 888-838-2413 1999 Ferrari 360 Modena MODENA - $74,000 Seller's Notes: Selling the dealership owner's personal car: Purchased 3 years ago in California with light quarter panel damage. The repair is perfect. We replaced the left rear quarter panel, left rocker panel and rear bumper. It will have a clean title and no car fax accident reported We at Prestman Auto Believe In Full Disclosure. Price is $75,000.00 firm!! Now for the good news. It has a $15k Nakamichi stereo system with a sub woofer behind the back seats wrapped in Ferrari leather with the stallion ebossed in the speaker cloth. It has a $5k Tubi racing exhaust. $7,500.00 Set of 3 piece wheels Staggered fitment 20" rears with 19" fronts with lots of rubber left. It has a Challenge grille, clear bra, F-1 Trans with a new clutch 1k miles ago (cost $5,500.00)."

    To me, 'light' damage wouldn't require the replacement of the rear quarter panel, but that's another debate, I suppose.

    Assuming that this is the same car, it's clear that either Anx is lying, Franz is lying or both are lying. Common sense puts money on Anx (having been assured that Carfax would be clean), with Franz trying to mitigate his losses. I'm not sure what it says about Prestman.
     
  25. HighandDry

    HighandDry Formula Junior

    Jul 24, 2012
    447
    Seattle
    Full Name:
    Steve
    Franz, I don't even know why you brought back this thread. Clearly, Rob's story of the car being in an accident and having numerous parts replaced was correct. I find it hard to believe that a savvy dealer would not have known that the left rear quarter panel, left rocker panel and rear bumper were replaced. It's all in the original ad (Preston) for the car.

    That's not to say that you didn't put further work into the car and that the car was cosmetically up to snuff. What Rob is pointing out is that the full extent of the damage was not in your ad and when he called about this car, it was stated that this car was never in an accident (according to Rob).

    What possible gain can you expect by bringing back this thread? Rob has not shown any signs of deceit or any reason for posting other than to allow members here to hear a full disclosure. So he low balled an offer, big deal. That doesn't change the fact that this car had significant damage. My Cayenne has had two rear quarter panels replaced. It looks and drives great, but I still wouldn't buy a car (especially a Ferrari) which had that much damage. Other people may, but that's up to them to decide that.

    If I was to sell the Cayenne would I disclose the quarter panel damage? Absolutely and it does have a clean Carfax.
     

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